Starting Ship Design Tips

[ductape]

I get the idea that many of us are re-designing the ships right from the start of the game and some are keeping that task manual and some are putting it back to the AI after the initial designs are done.

What I want to do in this thread is talk about ship designs, what ships and what components are you doing?

Try to be exact, I think this could be valuable to new players and also fun for us to see how other people play.

[torrenal]

You might look at the tips/tricks/etc thread for a number of design items.

Brief summary of the bigger points it makes:
Minimum design parameters for anything with an engine:
5 armor, 1 shield.  Cruise speed 12 (puts max speed ~ 24)  Reactor should supply enough for engines + weapons + static energy.

armor - for protection against wildlife.
shield - for protection against inclimate weather (and the odd 3rd party destroyed ship at a friendly port).
The speed minimum is an unfortunate item... moons can get moving up near 3, and ships dock at cruise speed.  If they are at 0 fuel, they move at 1/3rd speed -> 12 / 3 = 4  ;; 11 / 3 = 3   (One of these will catch the speed 3 moon quickly-ish.  One will not).

Durable designs will need multiples of key components (reactors, fuel cells, hyperdrives, repair systems, life support, habitation, etc).
Expendable designs will need to minimize components as much as possible.

Keep escorts & frigates small (pirates will copy these designs, so making a death-wheel-escort, capable of solo-nuking your average LSP + defensive bases?  bad idea).

Generally, you don't want to be moving faster than your weapons-fire -- this would require you to not fire on a ship you are chasing.  If you slow down, often the ship you chase will also slow down, to keep YOU in weapons range...
//Torrenal

[AminMaalouf]

For early game:

- use torpedos and increase the cruise speed in destroyer class ships
- leave escorts and frigates unchanged

(comes from the same thread that Torrenal has mentioned)

[ductape]

thanks for the tips guys. I was wondering and hoping that people would post actual ship designs. I have read of people making intersting ships, fatser ones, slower more durable ones. How they use them is also good to know and discuss.

Some people use energy collectors, some dont and go for larger fuel tanks. What about a specially designed fleet of very fast and light defense shis for quick attack or maybe the slow and steady juggernaut fleet for enemy defense busting. These are some of the things I am interested in hearing about.

[vonboy]

i put tons of mining components, more shields and docking stations, and some guns on my mining stations. they may cost more in maintenance, but i need less of them, and they last longer that way[;)]

[Cosian]

Great game! I am really liking it so far. I was a little disappointed in the lack of help info on the various components and how they function together. Couple questions....

The Thrust Vector improves the turn rate. It states that it takes 1 energy .... however I don't see this energy accounted for anywhere.... adding or removing them effects turn rate, but does not seem to effect energy use ... Earlier someone posted that your reactor power should cover weapons, engine, and static power needs. First I assume the engine requirements that need to be covered are energy use at sprint since you are not firing weapons at hyper. Is this correct. And then, if my energy use is X at sprint, must I factor the number of thrust vectors on top of that. Or, is it assumed that if I need to turn using thrust vectors some energy is diverted from my engines? Again, how are the thrust vectors factored in?

The energy collectors are a bit of an enigma to me. How are those used and how is the 'potential energy' they collect applied during combat and movement. Changing the number does not seem to effect anything in the energy budget panel.

[Cosian]

ORIGINAL: vonboy

i put tons of mining components, more shields and docking stations, and some guns on my mining stations. they may cost more in maintenance, but i need less of them, and they last longer that way[;)]

I increased mining components...lux, gas extractor, and mining engine as well. Question....are the resources from a source unlimited or do they run out? What do the resource percentages mean?

The Megatron Z4 Shield does not appear to use any energy as well. Is this correct?

[vonboy]

resources are unlimited. the percentages is just how fast you mine that resource (100% is twice as fast as 50%,ect).

[torrenal]

You are correct, energy use assumes sprint, not hyper.

Thrust vector components are not directly accounted for, I believe (unverified) that they only consume energy when the ship is turning.
Moreover:
Small warships ships generally have 1 or possibly 2 reactors... and you have to be doing some tight budgeting to get enough weapons and engines to account for all your spare energy, without leaving a spare 2-3 energy for turning jets.  Big warships like for redundant components (ie: a spare reactor), so this becomes entirely moot on larger ships.  If you want to take the time to account for it, go for it, but it works out to lots of effort for marginal gains.

I *think* shields consume energy 1 pt for 1 pt to charge, but otherwise do not consume energy.
//Torrenal

[the1sean]

why provide redundant systems? assuming the ship is efficiently built, wouldnt it be better to have 30 mass spent on armor, as opposed to systems that are completely redundant? Armor can usually absorb way more damage per mass point than components, right?

[Foraven]

ORIGINAL: the1sean

why provide redundant systems? assuming the ship is efficiently built, wouldnt it be better to have 30 mass spent on armor, as opposed to systems that are completely redundant? Armor can usually absorb way more damage per mass point than components, right?

I'm not sure if speed is related to ship size or if each components slow the ship down differently. It seem to me that armor does slow a ship down a lot and is the last line of defense (ships usually try to flee when shields are down, armor don't make them fast to do so). It may slow a ship down less (and maybe, cost less) to have a few key systems redundant than make a ship bullet proof but too slow to flee...

[torrenal]

why provide redundant systems? assuming the ship is efficiently built, wouldnt it be better to have 30 mass spent on armor, as opposed to systems that are completely redundant? Armor can usually absorb way more damage per mass point than components, right?

Because armor may not always cover everything, and in some designs it may both cheaper and more effective to provide an extra widget than 20 extra armor. And this in fleet actions, margins still matter -- You can win a fleet action, but still loose ships

//Torrenal
...and, there goes the last of our armor. And all 16 of our starboard torpedoes... didn't need them anyhow. Oops, aft phasers... not like anything was in range of them... bugger, holed our last damage repair system.... and our hyperdrive... glad we have that spare drive. Now would be a good time to hyper out, Matthews, please engage anytime you find convenient.

[the1sean]

ORIGINAL: torrenal

why provide redundant systems? assuming the ship is efficiently built, wouldnt it be better to have 30 mass spent on armor, as opposed to systems that are completely redundant? Armor can usually absorb way more damage per mass point than components, right?

Because armor may not always cover everything, and in some designs it may both cheaper and more effective to provide an extra widget than 20 extra armor. And this in fleet actions, margins still matter -- You can win a fleet action, but still loose ships

What do you mean "armor may not always cover everything", I have never seen components take ANY damage until ALL armor was destroyed...

ORIGINAL: torrenal
//Torrenal
...and, there goes the last of our armor. And all 16 of our starboard torpedoes... didn't need them anyhow. Oops, aft phasers... not like anything was in range of them... bugger, holed our last damage repair system.... and our hyperdrive... glad we have that spare drive. Now would be a good time to hyper out, Matthews, please engage anytime you find convenient.

LOL, that's hilarious! Point well taken. An extra hyperdrive on capital ships would be prudent!

[torrenal]

ORIGINAL: the1sean

ORIGINAL: torrenal

Because armor may not always cover everything, and in some designs it may both cheaper and more effective to provide an extra widget than 20 extra armor. And this in fleet actions, margins still matter -- You can win a fleet action, but still loose ships

What do you mean "armor may not always cover everything", I have never seen components take ANY damage until ALL armor was destroyed...

Armor only covers stuff until it's all destroyed.
Working probabilities, lets say I have a ship with 1 each of the following key components:
Hyperdrive
Reactor
Fuel Cell (I think this is needed--haven't seen a walking-dead ship without one)
Habitation module (pretty sure this is the one that's needed -- I think my ship that hypered home without thrusters also lacked life support, but I've not seen a moving ship without both life and hab)
And everything else is either not required, or present in sufficient quantity as to make debate moot. "Everything Else" covers, say, 35 components, and the ship is currently without armor.
So ye olde ship has 39 components total.
Working some statistics magic, after about 6 hits, I can expect one of those 4 key components to take damage.
If I add 4 armor, that lets me get survive 4 more hits.
If I add 1 each of those critical components, they now require 2 hits to the SAME critical component to disable them... which, if my statistics abilities work out (this is a bit beyond them, so I may be in err, but I think it still serves as a safe ball-park figure), it works out to on average an extra 6 hits before something critical goes kaput.

This is, however, for a small ship. On a large ship, the abundance of 'non-vital' parts throws the balance further in favor of spare parts. On the other hand, I expect armor is harder to damage than your average component. I won't say where the balance lies, but if I want a ship that can walk into the wrong end of a fight, and get back out alive, I still load in doubles of key parts.
//Torrenal
edit: Fix numbers for 4 key components instead of the 3 I'd miscounted...

[the1sean]

What we need to know is how much damage components can take per mass, versus armor per mass. If armor is vastly superior in durability, then it will win out on total damage absorbed before a ship is critically disabled.

If the numbers are close, then I can see an extra hyperdrive on the largest ships, which usually have plenty of fuel cells and generators to power one hyperjump out. But if the numbers arent close, then armor and extra guns wins out (my philosophy is "kill him before he can kill me").

[torrenal]

ORIGINAL: the1sean
(my philosophy is "kill him before he can kill me").

A sound philosophy, to which I subscribe whenever possible. Sadly, almost never do I start as the top-dog in a galaxy, and this is one only the top dog can employ.
//Torrenal
edit: tpyo fix

[the1sean]

Heh, I go for firepower from the beginning, ESPECIALLY when I am not the top dog. Remember, firepower directly determines your estimated military strength!

[torrenal]

Firepower only works when you can afford it.  When your income is 20k, and your expenses are 21k, you arn't building that next warship.  And I start my games from the single colony, making a 10k-in, 11k-out a common income scenario for me.  Annoying yes, because it's not possible for me to build a large military.  Most I can safely spring for is 3-4 ships early on, plus 1-3 scouts to hunt down the nearest inhabitable planets, and I'm always into contact with other empires before I can correct the income problem.
//Torrenal

[the1sean]

Oh, I dont mean from minute one. Of course wait till you have done some BASIC expansion, THEN pack on the heat [:D]

[Jeeves]

I always redesign from the start of the game onwards. I expect each ship to have the following characteristics :
1) Turn rate of at least 20. If you can turn around fast enough, then you can get away from dangerous situations.
2) Never go slower in hyper than your best hyper drive allows due to limited reactor power.
3) Never fail to recharge your shields or fire your weapons due to limited reactor power or energy storage.
Basically, start with static energy, add in the power used by all of your weapons firing at once, then add in the energy used at sprint mode, then add in your shield recharge rate. This is the absolute maximum power you CAN use per unit time. Compare that figure to static energy plus average weapons energy plus cruise energy plus half of the maximum shield recharge rate. Then strike a balance between the two which makes you feel comfortable. Early in the game that might mean using one or two less reactors than max power indicates. Later on when I am rich, I ADD an extra reactor for redundancy above the maximum indicated necessary.
4) I add engines until the total of static plus average weapons energy plus sprint engine energy plus half of the maximum shield recharge energy is right at the reactor output. If that is not fast enough, then I add another reactor and repeat. For warships I use the maximum rather than average weapons and shield recharge energy.
5) The level which I use for shields and armor depends heavily upon the stage of the game, and the ship role. I try to have at least 2-4 armor minimum on every type of ship which I build. It eats aculon like crazy, but is worth the extra cost in the long run.
6) I arm all of the ships in my civilian fleet with the weapon which provides the most firepower at a reasonable range, (except not the DEATH RAY or DEVASTATOR PULSE).
7) Since I learned in the forum here that the pirates copy my designs for escorts, frigates, and destroyers, I build none of those. Instead I build lots of cruisers,. and once I get the Death ray, as many capital ships armed with that as I can afford to maintain.

8) I arm all constructors who will be working in an unguarded system rather than proving an escort. Typically they have firepower, shields and armor comparable to a cruiser. A helpful hint - when a pirate attacks such a constructor or the project which it is building, tell it to attack rather than ignore the pest. You should have the "flee when" set to shields 20 or 50 and the attack mode set to all weapons firing. When the pest is dead, select the constructor and tell it to repair the construction project which was interrupted. In a pinch, you can use a constructor armed like that to guard a spaceport being built until its weapons and shields are at reasonable levels. HOWEVER that DOES cost more than a comparable cruiser.

9) As soon as practical in each game, I build 2-4 so called explorers which have a long range scanner. At size 230 you can build a slow pig of an explorer with lots of fuel and send it out into nebulae to find restricted zones. In my most recent game that was a terrific strategy, because I found a zone which had a capital ship in it which when finally repaired gave the beacon for the archive of lost technology, which I opened in 56/10/14 gaining warp 32 hyper drives among other goodies! Later on I build a fleet of so called explorers which are actually cruisers with a long range scanner. They are not much good for fighting pirate ships, but with their weapons and shields they take out pirate BASES which they locate quite nicely!

10) The earliest ships which I build are destroyers disguised as explorers. I build them as fast as my cash situation and construction queue on the home world allows. I use them to destroy pirate bases near my home system, gaining reputation points and treasure, often even a beacon for a lost warship, rarely a pirate faction joining me. Once all of the nearby pirates are dead, these so called explorers visit star systems to name them, checking as explore only the continental and swamp planets (use move to rather than explore unknown system). But most important of all this lightning quick name-only check of systems allows me to find ruins and AI empires with which to trade. I will not introduce a spoiler into this thread regarding the most important ruins to find, but just note that in most of the six games which I have played (until the galaxy of 1400 stars was fully named) the most important ruins were 1-3 sectors away from my home system rather than exceedingly far or very close by. So a good target number to build of such explorers is 15-25. Then once you open the technology archive and get warp 32 hyper drives, you can replace those old ships with resource scanner level 2 warp 32 explorers...

more to come in edits!


On spaceports, you should have something like the following component order, more or less, for new ports (not upgrades) a) Command and Commerce Centers b) ECM c) Life Support and Habitation d) damage control and repair bots

e) docking bays - as soon as the first docking bay is added, your port is in business even though you have no power! Notice in the expansion planner that the "my empire resources" distance for the colony goes to zero as soon as the first dock is built.

f) hospital and g) recreation center

h) the best targeting computer and weapons which can be built using only the resources available when the new colony plants, to firepower of 100-300 depending upon game progress and spaceport size.

i) all armor, then the best shields which can be built using only the resources available when the new colony plants, to shield strength of 500-1500 depending upon progress and spaceport size.

j) same for reactors, giving yourself about 600-1200 energy storage depending upon spaceport size

k) now add on energy collectors until you get to the output needed to support your static energy, all weapons firing, and shields recharging. What you lose in build time will be compensated by your shields starting to charge up, and savings in fuel once your spaceport is built. One thing to keep in mind is that for low output stars at outer orbits, you might need more energy collectors than normal, because the rate for a collector varies depending upon radiation at the planet. The value for an energy collector is its MAXIMUM potential, rather than actual collected. It will probably take as long for all of the energy collectors to be built as the combined time of a) through j.
l) long range scanner and cargo bay (at least one cargo for each docking bay)
m) IF and ONLY if you can afford the extra build time, add on mining, luxury, or gas extractors to increase the rate at which your colony mines resources. I do this on a regular basis. The result is often that the stock of the mined resource hits 20k before the spaceport completes!
n) Add your best shields till you get whatever level makes you comfortable. You might want to use different categories of shield (corvidian, deucallos, talassos) so that you get at least SOME built even if the others are delayed to to lack of a strategic resource. I have noticed that variety pays.
o) Use the same strategy for modern reactors, but USE the SAME fuel type as the earlier reactors in your design! Your energy storage level should exceed the maximum energy usage rather than the average required by static, weapons, and shields.
p) same strategy for weapons.
q) labs
r) yards
s) one of each type of manufacturer PER SHIPYARD plus an extra one or two of industrial.
t) fuel storage - at least one for each reactor

Notes:
1) It is a BAD idea to put hyper-deny weapons on a spaceport!
2) It is a BAD idea to put area weapons on a spaceport EARLY in the game, but a VERY good idea later on, because you MIGHT need them to wipe out a horde of destroyers or troop transports each carrying one troop.
3) Pirates LOVE to attack spaceports when they are vulnerable, so let your best available ships guard those being built. Once a port has a decent level of weapons and shields charged up, you COULD send your better ship to another port and just use smaller ships to ward off the pirates, who WILL visit you if you lack overwhelming strength. Notice how early I add the long range scanner, right after the energy collectors...

more to come in edits!

Ever seen a Strength 71 Kraltor? Awesome!


EDIT - attached is a ship designs file from one of my games, zipped up. unzip it to your desktop, then in the game design screen load the designs in a new game (for examination purposes). As discussed below, the mines on spaceports are not effective...