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Supply? does anyone here understand it?

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Supply? does anyone here understand it? - 9/9/2010 5:12:18 PM

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I really need help here understanding supply and beginging to get an uneasy feeling here nobody else understands it either. I have armored units in Australia, stationed in Sydney, they have a supply value of 22, if I move them several hexes away, 2 to 4 hexes my supply goes to 2, when I try to supply the units with USA supply the game wont let me, telling me that Sydney is well supplied, yeah right for Australian troops but not American units. The way supply is set up in this game IMHO is goofy

THe manual seems to say that my units will be able to draw supplies from an allied city like Sydney, not happening, again please explain to me how I can supply these troops of mine as they move farther away from Sydney to help the Aussies fight the Japanese.

Thank you anyone!

Bo

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RE: Supply? does anyone here understand it? - 9/9/2010 6:42:50 PM

schwaryfalke

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Hi,
your problem is a bug/design failure in the supply system.

The way it should work, is that you need to have a convoy from a port that has a land connection to a MSS for your country to a port. The receiving port,if the convoy suceeds,then has Full supply and passes the full supply status to other cities that have a land connection.

This fails though if the receiving port has 25+ intrinsic supply,due to the dumb coding that in this case no convoy is executed.The further consequence is that the port does not have Full supply status and therefore does not pass this on.Hence your supply level is only the intrinsic supply of the nearest city.

Unless this gets patched,the only solution is to only create a convoy to the smallest cities/ports (with low intrinsic supply)
for routing your supplies. Of course this only works where such a port is available and controlled by you.

Note :- The supply level is calculated based on the SHORTEST route to a supply source,and not on the best possible supply
ie A unit next to a city with 4 supply,would have 3 supply.This ignores that if supply came from a city 2 hexes away with 25 supply,the unit would have 23

Kind regards

(in reply to bo)

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RE: Supply? does anyone here understand it? - 9/9/2010 7:10:09 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: schwaryfalke

Hi,
your problem is a bug/design failure in the supply system.

The way it should work, is that you need to have a convoy from a port that has a land connection to a MSS for your country to a port. The receiving port,if the convoy suceeds,then has Full supply and passes the full supply status to other cities that have a land connection.

This fails though if the receiving port has 25+ intrinsic supply,due to the dumb coding that in this case no convoy is executed.The further consequence is that the port does not have Full supply status and therefore does not pass this on.Hence your supply level is only the intrinsic supply of the nearest city.

Unless this gets patched,the only solution is to only create a convoy to the smallest cities/ports (with low intrinsic supply)
for routing your supplies. Of course this only works where such a port is available and controlled by you.

Note :- The supply level is calculated based on the SHORTEST route to a supply source,and not on the best possible supply
ie A unit next to a city with 4 supply,would have 3 supply.This ignores that if supply came from a city 2 hexes away with 25 supply,the unit would have 23

Kind regards

Thank you Schwary I take it back somebody knows something okay doomtrader please fix it.

Bo

(in reply to schwaryfalke)

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RE: Supply? does anyone here understand it? - 9/9/2010 7:28:27 PM

Razz

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schwaryfalke,
This will not solve his problem since his units are isolated from a city.
Your theory does not contain amphibous landings. That's why there is a alternative supply source from ships at sea to supply any land unit 3 hexes inland.

The supply system is designed around realistic logstical problems during that time period.
If you notice supply is reduced by terrain factor and action points.

Even today units are not fully supplied in the jungle, swamps and mountain areas.

A lower supply reduces effectivity of the units.

If you made all cities MSS then there would be no reduction in effectivity, hence no supply constraint.

I don't see anything that needs to be fixed.

His planes out of supply is a unique situation and without a saved game it can not be verified or resolved.
It could be a corrupted file when he installed patched .
It could be a code concerning air units.
or it could be something else.

There are several places on the map where supply constrains the advance of units.

EDIT: It could be the simple fact he does not have enough of the correct type of ships in the sea zone as per the manual.
The enemy reduces the effects of alternative supply, so there may be no bug just a comprehension problem with supply.

< Message edited by Razz -- 9/9/2010 7:34:30 PM >

(in reply to bo)

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RE: Supply? does anyone here understand it? - 9/10/2010 5:51:10 PM

doomtrader

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We are investigating the issue and whatever bugs we will found, they will be addressed in next patch.

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RE: Supply? does anyone here understand it? - 9/10/2010 6:13:50 PM

schwaryfalke

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Razz

schwaryfalke,
This will not solve his problem since his units are isolated from a city.

Please reread the original Post,the units are not isolated. The issue is US units in Australia,that get LESS supply than an Australian unit in the same Hex.This is caused exactly by what i described. I did not mention the beachhead supply because that works logically( except where the supply routines decide to take supply from a city resulting in less supply than if beachhead supply was used)

THere is no need to change cities to MSS. 2 things need to be done.

1) Simple fix - Remove the code that cancels convoys that go to Ports with high intrinsic supply (This code is why the max supply level for a unit in Hawai is 25, while a unit on some little atoll has 30).
This would remove the main issue with the supply system.

2) Complex fix - Change the supply calculation so that supply is drawn from the city or via beachhead that gives the unit the highest possible supply level for the current location.

The reduction in supply based on range and type of intervening terrain is ok and not an issue since it reflects the real logistical constraints.

Edit. you can verify this by placing a US unit next to sydney. If your convoy from US goes to sydney (and then gets automatically canceled) it will have 24 supply, but if the convoy goes to Port Darwin(and is not intercepted) it will have 29 supply.

< Message edited by schwaryfalke -- 9/10/2010 6:18:43 PM >

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RE: Supply? does anyone here understand it? - 9/11/2010 1:55:30 AM

Razz

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Sydney is 30(25)

I don't see a problem with supply.

The owner and controller get 30 supply and any other country gets 25.

This is due to logistical problems. Even with an ally there are constraints; mainly coordination, communication, capacity, plus the owners always gets priorty.

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RE: Supply? does anyone here understand it? - 9/12/2010 7:05:54 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Razz

Sydney is 30(25)

I don't see a problem with supply.

The owner and controller get 30 supply and any other country gets 25.

This is due to logistical problems. Even with an ally there are constraints; mainly coordination, communication, capacity, plus the owners always gets priorty.

Look Razz I have to respect you because you carry that Matrix Legion of honor badge

But you are not listening or reading or whatever, the supply is screwed up plain and simple and you know from game experience that most errors are caught by players than programmers because we put more time into the game, most of the problem is in Australia. I captured Port Darwin where all Japanese supplies were coming in but 5 or 6 hexex away was a place called Daly waters or something like that move after move this town of Daly Waters was giving supplies of 20 to 22 every turn to stranded Jap units, where were these supplies coming from, not Port Darwin and not from any supply ships that were at least 6 hex's from a naval supply. I think the gentlemans post above was accurate and his solving of the problem was right on how to fix some of the supply problems, now in conclusion either the programmers are being a little hardheaded or you are just trying to help the computer as Doomtrader told me a couple posts ago, I think he called it balance

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RE: Supply? does anyone here understand it? - 9/13/2010 3:40:34 AM

Razz

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I suggest you re-read the manula two more times..

Daly Waters creates supplies, just like all cities.

A Boy who crys wolf too many times is ignored.

(in reply to bo)

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RE: Supply? does anyone here understand it? - 9/13/2010 6:42:31 PM

schwaryfalke

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Razz

I suggest you re-read the manula two more times..

Daly Waters creates supplies, just like all cities.

A Boy who crys wolf too many times is ignored.

I had actually considered not posting anymore,since i can not force people to actually read what is written when they have no wish to comprehend that there is an issue.

I would suggest that you take your own advice and actually read the manual at least once,specifically this section.

17.1 Calculating Supply
Supply is calculated for each country separately, using the following rules:
First, Supply is calculated in each city that is controlled by a country or its allies. This
is done in the following way.
� Cities that are Main Supply Sources (MSS) owned by a country get
maximum Supply. If the owner is an alliance, then all of an alliance
leader�s MSS act as if they were the MSS of this country.
� Cities that have a land connection over friendly-controlled hexes with any
MSS get full Supply.
� Supply Convoys. A Convoy Arrival Port gets the amount of Supply carried
by the Convoy.
� Cities that have a land connection over friendly-controlled hexes with a
Port in which a Convoy arrives get the Supply Value carried by the
Convoy (unless their own Supply Value is higher � this applies when the
Convoy took losses and managed to carry only a minimal amount of
Supply).
� Cities that don�t have a connection with a valid MSS either by land or by
Convoy will generate a certain amount of Supply on their own. This value
is shown in parentheses in the Hex Information panel (section 5.4) when a
City is selected from the Main Screen.
� Supply goes from Cities directly to units, traveling at the speed of a
motorized unit. Units will get Supply from the nearest city (nearest in terms
of APs of a Motorized unit, not in terms of the physical number of hexes
necessarily). The Supply Value that unit receives is the Supply in the city
minus the distance in terms of APs.
For example, the nearest City for German Infantry Division is 9 Action Points� worth
of Motorized unit movement away. The City has maximum Supply of 30. Therefore,
this division�s Supply will be 30-9=21.

Note there is no mention of convoys being automatically deleted.

Also which of these logistical scenarios would result in more supplies ?

a) Ship goods from US to a major port, then a few KM to the Unit
b) Ship goods from US to a minor port,then transport them 100s of KM across often dirt tracks to a major city.

As far as the game is concerned b) is the better solution

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RE: Supply? does anyone here understand it? - 9/14/2010 2:51:09 AM

Razz

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I have never seen convoys being deleted automatically.

I think your pipe dreaming from that stuff your smoking.

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RE: Supply? does anyone here understand it? - 9/14/2010 1:51:05 PM

vonRocko

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That's nice, people post questions and concerns about the game, and they're called liars and drug addicts! Wasteland, does this guy speak for you? These are legitimate concerns. I can understand their question, why can't you guys.

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RE: Supply? does anyone here understand it? - 9/14/2010 4:47:16 PM

War History

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Honest to God truth. I just looked at this forum for the first time, and this was the first thread I looked at because I WAS considering buying this game and was just starting in the "research" phase trying to figure out if it was worthwhile. After reading this thread, I think not. Typical Matrix attitude.

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RE: Supply? does anyone here understand it? - 9/14/2010 6:46:51 PM

cpdeyoung

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Neither Matrix nor Wastelands is involved in the unpleasant turn the thread has taken. The post from Doomtrader is very typical indeed, and he promised to do research and issue a patch if problems are found. No one else in this thread is a representative of Matrix or Wastelands, to the best of my knowledge.

That, of course, includes me.

Chuck

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RE: Supply? does anyone here understand it? - 9/15/2010 12:01:54 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Razz

I have never seen convoys being deleted automatically.

I think your pipe dreaming from that stuff your smoking.

Do not understand your comments Razz at all about supply instead of working with some of the posts you have done nothing more than to insult people and try to make them look foolish [cry wolf] I think its about time doomtrader steps in and takes a stance whether negative or positive about supply and end this before it gets real nasty, I tried to give an easy solution but you pooh poohed it, nice Razz, every post that I have read is a post that seems dedicated to make a good game better at least in the eyes of us tyros. I have a game that crashes once a night for no reason I have a game where I have to go in an make the Japanese AI human to take away 10 to fifteen bombers going after one target and then overloading and crashes, I have a game where the 128th move started giving me and other allied nations tons of new ships and then freezing the game up and I had to start again because even the game save did not work. I have a game where a mysterious cruiser of Japan bombards Portland on every move but no ship is there, ever. I think the game in most part is well done but the game at least for me is not stable, not being mean just would like to see some improvements to make this a truly great game. From what I read of earlier posts of yours shows me you are very knowledable about games and programming and certainly know a lot more about games than I do and I appreciate your effort on Rising Sun and I mean that, but please look into our complaints and help us instead of insulting us. Please!

Bo

(in reply to Razz)

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RE: Supply? does anyone here understand it? - 9/15/2010 12:05:30 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cpdeyoung

Neither Matrix nor Wastelands is involved in the unpleasant turn the thread has taken. The post from Doomtrader is very typical indeed, and he promised to do research and issue a patch if problems are found. No one else in this thread is a representative of Matrix or Wastelands, to the best of my knowledge.

That, of course, includes me.

Chuck

I agree with you 110% cpdeyoung about Matrix and Wastelands and I for one will bring no more negativity to this post [maybe] but I would like to get my $53US dollars worth and not have headaches.

Bo

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RE: Supply? does anyone here understand it? - 9/15/2010 12:08:11 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: War History

Honest to God truth. I just looked at this forum for the first time, and this was the first thread I looked at because I WAS considering buying this game and was just starting in the "research" phase trying to figure out if it was worthwhile. After reading this thread, I think not. Typical Matrix attitude.

Hi War history actually the game is decent, nice map, pretty good interface agressive AI most of the time, sorry you had to read these comments it should not have gone this far.

Bo

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RE: Supply? does anyone here understand it? - 9/15/2010 6:10:06 AM

War History

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I liked SSIs Pacific War. UV looked to be a lot like its predecessor (War in the South Pacific), but alas not even close. I looked into WitP and the same type of attitude as above from Matrix people and "non-Matrix people" that were involved in the game process somehow. Same with AE. By my way of thinking if these people are not connected to Matrix, yet Maatrix doesnt correct them when they cross the line, it is like Matrix saying it themselves. It is their forum. If they dont police it, then they support it. Simple. I have many games from long ago that I still play simply because they are fun to play (Caesar 3 anyone? or Rail Baron? or SPWW2?). Not about to support a company with this type of attitude from either its employees or its "spokesmen". Simple. Its my money, and I will keep it from them until they clean up their house. Simple. If they presume this is unreasonable on my part, then they dont want my business. Again, pretty simple.

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RE: Supply? does anyone here understand it? - 9/15/2010 7:05:20 AM

Crimguy

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Dude, what the hell are you talking about?

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RE: Supply? does anyone here understand it? - 9/15/2010 3:07:38 PM

War History

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Talking about the only recourse a person has with a company that treats its customers and potential customers like crap. Not buying their products and further telling them WHY you wont buy their products. And if they choose not to change their attitude and policies based on it, then so be it.

Why? Do you have a stake in the company?

(Edit: Bo, I dont play against the AI - I feel its like taking candy from a baby. Either they have to make it cheat to give you a run for your money or after a couple of playings you know how to beat it and it falls to boring. Caesar 3 I like I guess because its just running a city and keeping it moving. Rail Baron I like more or less for the same reason. Can take the "computer players" out of that one and it would still be fun to me. SPWWII is always a random map with random forces, although I still play that about 50% of the time vs a human rather than the AI.)

< Message edited by War History -- 9/15/2010 3:12:52 PM >

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RE: Supply? does anyone here understand it? - 9/15/2010 10:13:43 PM

Crimguy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: War History

Why? Do you have a stake in the company?

No - I really can't imagine investing in a computer war game publisher to be very wise ;-D

I'm just seeing a guy who's registered 5 months ago, has a dozen posts, and is complaining about Matrix' support etc. I can't speak for anyone but myself, but will note that, of the games I've bought from their partners (witp, witp ae, HTTR, COTA, WBTS, Flashpoint Germany), I've never had much anything but prompt responses from either the game maker or their desgnated spokesmodel on the forums. There are a lot of cranky old geezers in the WitP forums, but generally things are pretty pleasant.

I've seen a few people get banned over the years, and some who have been rude and arrogant yet not gotten any discipline. Frankly I could give a s**t. It's like the TV - you don't like what you're watching, there's always another channel. I've reviewed your posts and really don't see anything wrong with your comments or the responses to them. I don't see the attitude problem you described.

Matrix is what it is - a publisher, and I really think it's as much the game creator's responsibility as anyone else's to provide support. To repeat what I was saying before, I've had problems ranging from CTD's (COTA IIRC) to no startup (WItpAE) and have not had any instances of my problems being ignored.

In short, I'm still unclear what the heck has upset you.

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RE: Supply? does anyone here understand it? - 9/16/2010 12:13:07 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Razz

I have never seen convoys being deleted automatically.

I think your pipe dreaming from that stuff your smoking.

Can we get back to some kind words instead of what is being said. I believe Schwary was referring to any supply sent to another port if it is allied will be cancelled if that port is so called well supplied, the convoy will then have ceased to exist or deleted whatever. A great improvement in this game would to let all convoys go through subject to being destroyed or partially destroyed and also allow the player to select his or her own convoy route, that would be a lot better then some of the routes now that go right into the lions den.

Bo

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RE: Supply? does anyone here understand it? - 9/18/2010 12:58:25 AM

marc420

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Shouldn't an Aussie MSS act like one to the allied US Troops? Hard to tell from the language in the manual. It sounds like it could be that Aussie troops get a free nite on the town in Los Angeles, but US troops don't in Sydney. Which would be wrong if that's the way it works. Maybe its just because it what I hoped it would say, but the easiest would be to have the MSS of any ally work for any other nation in the alliance.

Or any city for that matter. If US troops are a few hexes from an Aussie city, then they should be supplied just like they were an Aussie unit.

Just watched the Pacific mini series. The Marines were starving in a lot of places. Melbourne wasn't one of them. The Marines found themselves in a country where all the men were in Africa or Europe fighting for the Brits. So, they found a nation of lonely young women and were welcomed with open arms and open doors into their homes. Definitely didn't look to be starving for food or other attention to me. :)

I'd check the map, but the game is such a huge resource hog that I can't type here unless I shut the game down. Very slow o n e c h a r a t a t i m e.

Probably shouldn't mention that. Some other loudmouth out here will now attack me for trying to play a game on anything that isn't as good as their super-gaming computer. Oh well. That's the Matrix forums.

The bit about making the code check for the supply source that would deliver the most supply to a unit instead of checking for the closest in AP points sounds like very wise advice.

Generally, all Matrix games force customers to come to these forums to learn the games. Generally, the small developers who work with Matrix don't write decent manuals. So, you have to come to these forums to get the details about the game. I've been playing the demo for an hour, read through the manual, and I'm already out here looking for details that aren't mention and are thus a mystery to me right now.

Unfortunately, its long been the case that if you come to these forums, you run into some loud mouth jerk who jumps all over people who dare to ask a question.

I rarely buy Matrix games. Just trying the demo of this one. I'd like to find a strategic/operational game on the pacific that doesn't have the bad UI and massive overkill of details that WITP always died from. But these forums are one of several reasons I rarely buy the games. That and the fact that Matrix publishes a great deal of over-priced, buggy, POS games. Don't know if this is one or not. Do have to remember that the developers are different from Matrix game to Matrix game. I've regretted an awful lot of purchases from Matrix over the years. Found some good games as well. So, I buy rarely, and very, very carefully from here.

People like Razz aren't helping that with their massive doses of attitude towards anyone who comes here trying to ask a question.

Oh well, I'm gone from here. Of course, with my questions about the game unanswered. Which probably means that it won't ever be more than an uninstalled demo for me.

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RE: Supply? does anyone here understand it? - 9/18/2010 3:29:01 AM

Razz

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You guys are funny. Check Bo's posts.

Every post is negative and says the game is broken, when it isn't.

Perhaps if he asked for help it would be different.

Plus he doesn't understand your answers and can't explain his problems.

Just read his posts. He is a boy who crys Wolf all the time.

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RE: Supply? does anyone here understand it? - 9/18/2010 9:17:31 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Razz

You guys are funny. Check Bo's posts.

Every post is negative and says the game is broken, when it isn't.

Perhaps if he asked for help it would be different.

Plus he doesn't understand your answers and can't explain his problems.

Just read his posts. He is a boy who crys Wolf all the time.

1- you insult anybody who agrees with me calling them funny which is the same as idiots
2-not every post is negative just asked to fix some problems most of my posts praise the game not said its broken and that makes you a liar.
3- understood every bodies post but yours, already explained the problems that you havent grasped yet.
4-I am 62 years old not a boy crying wolf whatever the hell that means.
5- AND MOST IMPORTANT EVERY BODY DISAGREES WITH YOU AND MAYBE YOU OUGHT TO READ THE POSTS AGAIN.

Bo

< Message edited by bo -- 9/18/2010 9:53:56 PM >

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Post #: 25

RE: Supply? does anyone here understand it? - 9/23/2010 12:19:10 AM

Tomokatu

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quote:

...the small developers who work with Matrix don't write decent manuals

Believe me, the writing of manuals is a fine art. The people who can do it well are few and far between.
It requires a damn good knowledge of the language of the end user, a REALLY good understanding of the game or other software package and lots of liaison between the developers and the end user representatives (when you can get hold of them). Not only that, but it takes time.
The beancounters, nitpickers and anal retentive control freaks

in Management who are only concerned with the bottom line of the project DO NOT WANT to pay a proper manual writer what (s)he's worth in the first place, nor for the actual number of hours contributed and will trash the project manual as the first of their "cost-cutting" exercises.

So, it's not reasonable to blame Wastelands Interactive (a developer who works in the Polish language) for the quality of the manuals they've given us.

I'm very pleased that they're as good as they are, and you can quote me on that.

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RE: Supply? does anyone here understand it? - 9/23/2010 1:38:47 PM

Aurelian

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But, this part made me smile: "Please ensure your system meets the minimum requirements listed below. To install
the game, either double click on the installation file you downloaded or insert the
Distant Worlds� CD into your CD-ROM drive."

Tomokatu is right though.

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RE: Supply? does anyone here understand it? - 9/23/2010 3:25:43 PM

Iain McNeil

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Can we calm this all down please. Things seem to have gotten out of control. I'm sure you wouldn't talk to each other like this if you were face to face so try to treat people with the same repect online as you woudl when talking to them. Forum posts can often be misinterpted so please try to read things in the way they were written and avoid hasty replies. Everyone here is interested in making a good game better so you're all on the same side!

I'll ask the developer to respond to these concerns in this thread.

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RE: Supply? does anyone here understand it? - 9/23/2010 3:47:32 PM

doomtrader

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I was hoping that this thread will drift into more civilized parts of the world.

I think that the main subject has been lost many posts ago.

Anyway, we have changed the rule that disallowed to send convoys to cities with supply higher than 25, so since the next patch, there will a possibility to send supply to all ports and distribute it further to the other cities.

I'm hoping this explains the question.

Regarding the manual. I think that the issue was already discussed some time ago.
The manual was made by Wastelands Interactive and proofreaded by several English native speakers. Please take under consideration that the game text and manual contains more than one hundred thousand words and some minor issues might slipped unnoticed. There was also a special thread created by one of the forumees where everybody could post bugs found. IIRC there were only something around 5 constructive posts pointing bugs. Of course if you have spotted something, please let us know about that and don't forget to post version number.

< Message edited by doomtrader -- 9/23/2010 4:45:59 PM >

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(in reply to Iain McNeil)

Post #: 29