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Diplomacy - 8/28/2010 8:33:49 PM   
Simulation01


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I also mentioned this on Star Ruler forums...but I'd like to see more of this in all strategy games!

their should be diplomatic requests, demands, pacts, discussions, treaty's that you can choose from. you should be able to bring multiple empires into this one discussion or negotiation so that you could form trading blocs and grand alliances.....also you should be able to bring another empire into the negotiations in order to share intelligence between multiple empires simultaneously and sway their opinions and you should be able to bring in another empire to embarrass them by revealing damning intel on them.


You should be able to form:
Alliance ( bi lateral or multilateral )

Grand Alliances ( multilateral like NATO or the Warsaw Pact )

Non-Aggression agreements

Free Trade Agreements

Right of Passage Agreements

Pacts of war ( form temporary alliances against other empires, this could be multilateral )

multilateral embargo's

Agreements for blockades

Establish embassy's which would increase your standings with that empire and plead your case on a daily business as well as facilitate trade between your empires.

Form Research agreements ( bi or multilateral )

Mutual defense treaty's ( bi/multilateral ) I'm thinking World War I type stuff here.

Agreements of assistance during natural disasters or something.

Things like governments in exile. I'm thinking of France during World War II.

Introduce the concepts of Military to Military contacts. Something like conducting regular war games between allies or conducting war games as a saber rattling exercise to influence enemy's and neighbors.

Arms control agreements ( bi/multilateral )

Vassal states

Neutral Zones

Agreements relating to the use of weapons of mass destruction ( non-proliferation and their use )

The possibility of supporting terrorists/pirates or rebels within another empire. I'm thinking of Kashmir and India/Pakistan conflict as well as the British Empires support of Pirates in the Caribbean.

Peace brokering. I'm thinking of how the U.S attempts to broker peace between Israel and the Arabs. This would me a multilateral series of negotiations.

I'll think of more later.

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RE: Diplomacy - 8/28/2010 8:43:55 PM   
lordxorn


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You make very valid points, and something that is always overlooked in strategy games.

I think the biggest road block is the fact that it is hard to code an AI that will use the system you describe in an intelligent way.



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RE: Diplomacy - 8/28/2010 8:58:05 PM   
Simulation01


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Oh, you're definitely right.....it would be a lot of work, but it would be something no one else has done so far.  I don't know of any other game that has done diplomacy in this manner before.  I think this would sell a lot of games....especially if you offered an option to have either advanced diplomacy in a game or simple ( that would be something you set in the options panel before you start a game and it would allow for both advanced gamers and for folks that enjoy something more casual and simplified ).

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RE: Diplomacy - 8/28/2010 11:06:14 PM   
lordxorn


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One series that has had excellent diplomacy was the CIV series. Civ IV I thought worked well, and am really forward to CIV V.

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RE: Diplomacy - 8/28/2010 11:22:58 PM   
Simulation01


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CIV IV's Diplomacy did work well, and it is a game I have always enjoyed ( especially with the Fall From Heaven II Mod and subsequent modmods ).  However, it was never as deep and intricate as I would like.  I have made similar posts to the one above on the CIV V wish lists, and I'm really hoping that some of them are either adopted or were originally planned for.

I am really at a loss as to why more isn't done to accommodate all or some of my requests ( not that they are mine alone...there are other like minded souls out there ).  They seem obvious to me.  I mean these games we are playing are civilization based strategy games.  I know it's hard, but if done and done correctly you would be established as a developer demigod.


_____________________________

"Tho' much is taken, much abides; and though we are not now that strength which in old days moved Earth and Heaven; that which we are, we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts, made weak by time and fate, but strong in will." -Tennyson

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RE: Diplomacy - 8/29/2010 3:27:02 AM   
the1sean


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Civ IV and GalCiv2 had great diplomacy features, as well as the Paradox series of games like Hearts of Iron and Europa Universalis. Also, current Europa Universalis has stellar war and treaty resolution system, would be great to see in all 4Xs!

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RE: Diplomacy - 8/29/2010 4:19:43 AM   
Simulation01


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Man, I cannot stand the Hearts of Iron, Europa Universalis diplomacy scheme.  I mean I always love more options obviously, but you had to jump through so many hoops before you could declare war!!  I absolutely must be able to declare war whenever I feel like it.  Cassus Beli is fine but it cannot be overly restrictive.

_____________________________

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RE: Diplomacy - 8/29/2010 8:20:22 AM   
J HG T


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Great ideas there Simulation. One idea I actually came up recently is from good old Total annihilation and GalCiv 2. the ability to gift ships to other empires. I don't how this could be done but it would open some seriously funny possibilities. Your weak ally is fighting a losing war. Give him couple state-of-the-art capital ships to even the odds. And this would work other way around also. Allies giving you some ships on hard times. If the ships are more advanced than the ones empire has they would give tech bonus when retired, just like those derelict vessels.

And proper alliances are definetly needed. It should be next step from mutual defence pact and hard to achieve. But it would give some nice bonuses for both sides.


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RE: Diplomacy - 8/29/2010 11:34:50 AM   
Gertjan

 

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Good ideas. I support more diplomatic options.

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RE: Diplomacy - 8/29/2010 12:27:27 PM   
Bozz

 

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More diplomacy options would be nice.

I love the new diplomacy model in Victoria II, its awesome, you can choose exactly why you are declaring war on an other empire, Annex country, annex specific provinces, subjugation war, liberating nation etc... that is Awesome..

I also loved the diplomacy and AI skills in galciv II which led to epic situations

Space empire V had a good dipomacy model but the AI was to bad to make any use with it, I like beeing able to create an union between several empires like the EU, or ONU.... and than you also can modifie a lot of things in that alliance like forbidding use of some weapons etc... that was great but unfortunatly SE V had a very bad AI even with all the mods that exist for that game.

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RE: Diplomacy - 8/29/2010 1:34:40 PM   
Simulation01


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quote:

ORIGINAL: J HG T

Great ideas there Simulation. One idea I actually came up recently is from good old Total annihilation and GalCiv 2. the ability to gift ships to other empires. I don't how this could be done but it would open some seriously funny possibilities. Your weak ally is fighting a losing war. Give him couple state-of-the-art capital ships to even the odds. And this would work other way around also. Allies giving you some ships on hard times. If the ships are more advanced than the ones empire has they would give tech bonus when retired, just like those derelict vessels.

And proper alliances are definetly needed. It should be next step from mutual defence pact and hard to achieve. But it would give some nice bonuses for both sides.



J HG T,

Thanks! Yeah that would definitely be needed. I think something similar to Lend Lease from WWII...become either the Arsenal of Democracy or the Arsenal of Tyranny lol.


quote:


More diplomacy options would be nice.

I love the new diplomacy model in Victoria II, its awesome, you can choose exactly why you are declaring war on an other empire, Annex country, annex specific provinces, subjugation war, liberating nation etc... that is Awesome..

I also loved the diplomacy and AI skills in galciv II which led to epic situations

Space empire V had a good dipomacy model but the AI was to bad to make any use with it, I like beeing able to create an union between several empires like the EU, or ONU.... and than you also can modifie a lot of things in that alliance like forbidding use of some weapons etc... that was great but unfortunatly SE V had a very bad AI even with all the mods that exist for that game.



Bozz,

I'm going to have to look into Victoria II some...although it reminds me of HOI...and those games always left me wanting more( especially since I bought HOI3 which in order to get the most out of it I now have to buy HOI3:Simper Fi....whose features should have been included in HOI3 ). I really liked the concept of "fronts" though. I couldn't tell from the specs listed on Impulse, but is the idea of "fronts" found in Victoria II?

You are right about SEV. It was/is an awesome game, but the AI could never make use of the Alliance system....which always disappointed me horribly. I have still spent many hours playing that game and I really wish that the developers would return for a SE VI, but if DW incorporated a lot of these ideas...i'd prolly never leave it lol.

I'm also pushing for the concept of territory in this game...territory that cannot be violated by another empires warships unless you have a right of passage agreement....I'm thinking like CIV IV here.

_____________________________

"Tho' much is taken, much abides; and though we are not now that strength which in old days moved Earth and Heaven; that which we are, we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts, made weak by time and fate, but strong in will." -Tennyson

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RE: Diplomacy - 8/30/2010 10:01:54 PM   
Gertjan

 

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I believe the reviews of victoria 2 are somewhat mixed.

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RE: Diplomacy - 9/6/2010 8:50:32 PM   
SilverRocket

 

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Simulation01, these are great points. I think in particular multilateral alliances and institutions and better options for vassal states would really improve the game. Government's in exile - either on other planets or in Battlestar Gallactica-esque fleets on the run - would be very cool.

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RE: Diplomacy - 9/9/2010 12:12:19 AM   
luke.h


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Thanks Simulation01 and others for the input.
We will consider it for the fututre development of DW.

Thanks

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RE: Diplomacy - 9/9/2010 1:29:30 AM   
Simulation01


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luke.h

Thanks Simulation01 and others for the input.
We will consider it for the fututre development of DW.

Thanks



Nope, the thanks go to you guys. You've already created a great game that I'm hooked on. I literally come here daily looking for updates. Keep up the awesome work.

_____________________________

"Tho' much is taken, much abides; and though we are not now that strength which in old days moved Earth and Heaven; that which we are, we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts, made weak by time and fate, but strong in will." -Tennyson

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RE: Diplomacy - 10/8/2010 5:04:00 PM   
Simulation01


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***********NEW IDEA*************


Empires should be able to produce and sell ships or units.  This would be similar to how the U.S. builds the F-15 and sells them to other nations that can't build them.

So, empires that couldn't build capital ships may be able to buy them from another Empire if they had the money.  You might even be able to sell clone army's ( ground troops ) LOL.


_____________________________

"Tho' much is taken, much abides; and though we are not now that strength which in old days moved Earth and Heaven; that which we are, we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts, made weak by time and fate, but strong in will." -Tennyson

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RE: Diplomacy - 10/8/2010 5:20:16 PM   
Igard


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Nice idea, Simulation01. I think this would be cool, but only for certain races. I'd like to see a xenophobic/isolationist modifier for each race so that we could set how much they interact with other races (maybe this could simply be worked into the friendliness modifer already present). That way, if the race was distrustful of aliens and preferred to keep to themselves, they would never contemplate selling arms or tech to other empires.

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RE: Diplomacy - 10/8/2010 5:26:00 PM   
Simulation01


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Igard

Nice idea, Simulation01. I think this would be cool, but only for certain races. I'd like to see a xenophobic/isolationist modifier for each race so that we could set how much they interact with other races (maybe this could simply be worked into the friendliness modifer already present). That way, if the race was distrustful of aliens and preferred to keep to themselves, they would never contemplate selling arms or tech to other empires.



Very good points. Also, if races had poor relations they obviously shouldn't be selling the other side ships or supplies.

_____________________________

"Tho' much is taken, much abides; and though we are not now that strength which in old days moved Earth and Heaven; that which we are, we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts, made weak by time and fate, but strong in will." -Tennyson

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RE: Diplomacy - 10/8/2010 5:33:53 PM   
Simulation01


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What do you think about the idea of being able to mothball ships?  You would mothball old or obsolete ships, but not destroy them.  They would be put in 'storage' basically to be brought back into service during times of national emergency.  These mothballed ships would not cost anything to maintain or at least very little to keep in mothball.  They would be kept in mothball at a certain planet or major starbase.

_____________________________

"Tho' much is taken, much abides; and though we are not now that strength which in old days moved Earth and Heaven; that which we are, we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts, made weak by time and fate, but strong in will." -Tennyson

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RE: Diplomacy - 10/8/2010 5:42:50 PM   
Igard


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Simulation01

What do you think about the idea of being able to mothball ships?  You would mothball old or obsolete ships, but not destroy them.  They would be put in 'storage' basically to be brought back into service during times of national emergency.  These mothballed ships would not cost anything to maintain or at least very little to keep in mothball.  They would be kept in mothball at a certain planet or major starbase.



We could have great big starship museums! I used to send all my old favourite ships (ancient ships and the sort) to a remote system somewhere to be put into 'mothball' although of course they were still functional and would actually act as a defence force. I liked to think this was a fitting end to a ship with a long and proud history.

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RE: Diplomacy - 10/8/2010 6:15:49 PM   
ehsumrell1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Igard


quote:

ORIGINAL: Simulation01

What do you think about the idea of being able to mothball ships?  You would mothball old or obsolete ships, but not destroy them.  They would be put in 'storage' basically to be brought back into service during times of national emergency.  These mothballed ships would not cost anything to maintain or at least very little to keep in mothball.  They would be kept in mothball at a certain planet or major starbase.



We could have great big starship museums! I used to send all my old favourite ships (ancient ships and the sort) to a remote system somewhere to be put into 'mothball' although of course they were still functional and would actually act as a defence force. I liked to think this was a fitting end to a ship with a long and proud history.


I LIKE....I LIKE....

I would keep my mothballed fleet in the Briar Patch..... lol

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RE: Diplomacy - 10/8/2010 6:19:59 PM   
Simulation01


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Igard


quote:

ORIGINAL: Simulation01

What do you think about the idea of being able to mothball ships?  You would mothball old or obsolete ships, but not destroy them.  They would be put in 'storage' basically to be brought back into service during times of national emergency.  These mothballed ships would not cost anything to maintain or at least very little to keep in mothball.  They would be kept in mothball at a certain planet or major starbase.



We could have great big starship museums! I used to send all my old favourite ships (ancient ships and the sort) to a remote system somewhere to be put into 'mothball' although of course they were still functional and would actually act as a defence force. I liked to think this was a fitting end to a ship with a long and proud history.




Lol....that's an interesting work around, but they are still costing a great deal to maintain...whereas if you had a mothball function or option they would either cost very little to maintain or nothing at all.

_____________________________

"Tho' much is taken, much abides; and though we are not now that strength which in old days moved Earth and Heaven; that which we are, we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts, made weak by time and fate, but strong in will." -Tennyson

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RE: Diplomacy - 10/8/2010 9:25:19 PM   
Igard


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Simulation01


Lol....that's an interesting work around, but they are still costing a great deal to maintain...whereas if you had a mothball function or option they would either cost very little to maintain or nothing at all.


Money is no object for a sentimental old tyrant like me!

I would say mothballed ships should cost a very small amount as they would need to be maintained by a quartermaster. Trek fans will remember Mr. Dokachin(sp?) the Zakdorn quartermaster of the Starfleet surplus depot.


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RE: Diplomacy - 10/8/2010 10:00:30 PM   
Simulation01


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Igard


quote:

ORIGINAL: Simulation01


Lol....that's an interesting work around, but they are still costing a great deal to maintain...whereas if you had a mothball function or option they would either cost very little to maintain or nothing at all.


Money is no object for a sentimental old tyrant like me!

I would say mothballed ships should cost a very small amount as they would need to be maintained by a quartermaster. Trek fans will remember Mr. Dokachin(sp?) the Zakdorn quartermaster of the Starfleet surplus depot.




You ol' softy!


...Zackdorn Quartermaster?...are you referring to the episode of the Next Generation where Data was playing that crazy game, and the Enterprise was conducting war games with the old ship Star Gazer?

_____________________________

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RE: Diplomacy - 10/8/2010 11:39:46 PM   
martok


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I'd be down for being able to mothball ships. It's a feature I've always wanted to see in a 4x game.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Simulation01

...Zackdorn Quartermaster?...are you referring to the episode of the Next Generation where Data was playing that crazy game, and the Enterprise was conducting war games with the old ship Star Gazer?

He's referring to the TNG episode "Unification Part II". With Picard & Data on Romulus, Riker takes the Enterprise to a Starfleet junkyard in trying to track down some missing mothballed Vulcan ships.




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RE: Diplomacy - 10/9/2010 2:51:17 AM   
Carewolf

 

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The game seems to have some peace brokering built in. Every now and then my advisors suggest I should propose a peace on my friends behalf, but for some reason I am not allowed to take this action on my own, and can only take it when advised to do so.

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RE: Diplomacy - 10/9/2010 4:48:51 AM   
Simulation01


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quote:

ORIGINAL: martok

I'd be down for being able to mothball ships. It's a feature I've always wanted to see in a 4x game.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Simulation01

...Zackdorn Quartermaster?...are you referring to the episode of the Next Generation where Data was playing that crazy game, and the Enterprise was conducting war games with the old ship Star Gazer?

He's referring to the TNG episode "Unification Part II". With Picard & Data on Romulus, Riker takes the Enterprise to a Starfleet junkyard in trying to track down some missing mothballed Vulcan ships.






I've seen parts of that...I'll have to look it up. Thanks.

_____________________________

"Tho' much is taken, much abides; and though we are not now that strength which in old days moved Earth and Heaven; that which we are, we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts, made weak by time and fate, but strong in will." -Tennyson

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RE: Diplomacy - 10/9/2010 9:32:35 AM   
Igard


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Carewolf

The game seems to have some peace brokering built in. Every now and then my advisors suggest I should propose a peace on my friends behalf, but for some reason I am not allowed to take this action on my own, and can only take it when advised to do so.


That's interesting, I don't think I've ever tried playing with diplomatic advisors switched on. Might give it a try if it adds to the diplomacy.

Thanks Martok, I couldn't remember which episode that was.

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RE: Diplomacy - 10/9/2010 10:48:51 AM   
Aures

 

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I use the option to speak on behalf of someone I have a free trade agreement with all the time, really helps keep things calm when aggression is set to chaos.

Regarding the OP explicitly multi-lateral diplomacy is an interesting and ambitious idea. But in my experience the game already has some pretty interesting power bloc dynamics. Scrolling down the list of empires usually reveals a pretty good webs of wars and free trade agreements. But is it kind of messy like system borders. Personally, I like being able to be enemies with the enemy of my enemy, enemies with a friend of a friend, friends of my friends enemy etc. That ability is sorely missing in lots of diplomacy systems. If there was some kind of graphic where all the connections could be seen at once it would make it much easier to see all the different power blocs. I have seen that in pvp diplomacy systems that otherwise aren't more sophisticated than SW and it usually works quite well, especially if the nodes rearrange themselves based on the relationships they have. I think I have even seen it in a 4x but I forget which one.

There is of course a lot of room to extend the diplomacy system. Top on my list would be adding 100,000 and 1,000,000 options to the cash part (or better yet allowing us to just type in whatever we want). The ability to only offer disputed bases and colonies that are in what is regarded as the other player's territory is limiting. So is only being able to demand ones that are in space regarded by the game as yours. I'm not sure if the ability to buy or sell any tech level rather than just the most current would mess up how races with special techs currently works (though there seems to be special mechanics dealing with trading those anyway) but it would certainly add a lot more flexibility. Being able to trade ships would be somewhere on that same list of suggestions.

I am starting to learn how to really bend the diplomacy system to my will. Going to war for just long enough to grab a planet then bribing for peace and swapping the planet back for a tech is a great way to get to the cutting edge of technology at the start of a slow research game. It is also much cheaper than just buying the tech off them. I never even give away my territory map now, I just pay the AI for theirs. If they offer to swap territory maps with me I can usually just open the diplomacy screen and get them to give it to me for nothing. Using the suggest setting on diplomacy (I play with suggest gifts, treaties, war and trade sanctions) to allow me to speak on a friends behalf is part of the mix as well. I'm not 100% sure what the relevant automation setting is, but it would be a simple process of elimination to work it out.

Mothballing ships is another interesting idea but it would have to be worked out properly. You don't want mothballing and unmothballing to be too quick and easy or there is a temptation to always mothball something if you will not be using it for even just a brief period. If the ship can't move until a construction ship comes to unmothball it and it requires a visit from a construction ship to mothball it in the first place that would go a long way towards balancing it.

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RE: Diplomacy - 10/9/2010 2:28:59 PM   
Simulation01


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aures

I use the option to speak on behalf of someone I have a free trade agreement with all the time, really helps keep things calm when aggression is set to chaos.

Regarding the OP explicitly multi-lateral diplomacy is an interesting and ambitious idea. But in my experience the game already has some pretty interesting power bloc dynamics. Scrolling down the list of empires usually reveals a pretty good webs of wars and free trade agreements. But is it kind of messy like system borders. Personally, I like being able to be enemies with the enemy of my enemy, enemies with a friend of a friend, friends of my friends enemy etc. That ability is sorely missing in lots of diplomacy systems. If there was some kind of graphic where all the connections could be seen at once it would make it much easier to see all the different power blocs. I have seen that in pvp diplomacy systems that otherwise aren't more sophisticated than SW and it usually works quite well, especially if the nodes rearrange themselves based on the relationships they have. I think I have even seen it in a 4x but I forget which one.

There is of course a lot of room to extend the diplomacy system. Top on my list would be adding 100,000 and 1,000,000 options to the cash part (or better yet allowing us to just type in whatever we want). The ability to only offer disputed bases and colonies that are in what is regarded as the other player's territory is limiting. So is only being able to demand ones that are in space regarded by the game as yours. I'm not sure if the ability to buy or sell any tech level rather than just the most current would mess up how races with special techs currently works (though there seems to be special mechanics dealing with trading those anyway) but it would certainly add a lot more flexibility. Being able to trade ships would be somewhere on that same list of suggestions.

I am starting to learn how to really bend the diplomacy system to my will. Going to war for just long enough to grab a planet then bribing for peace and swapping the planet back for a tech is a great way to get to the cutting edge of technology at the start of a slow research game. It is also much cheaper than just buying the tech off them. I never even give away my territory map now, I just pay the AI for theirs. If they offer to swap territory maps with me I can usually just open the diplomacy screen and get them to give it to me for nothing. Using the suggest setting on diplomacy (I play with suggest gifts, treaties, war and trade sanctions) to allow me to speak on a friends behalf is part of the mix as well. I'm not 100% sure what the relevant automation setting is, but it would be a simple process of elimination to work it out.

Mothballing ships is another interesting idea but it would have to be worked out properly. You don't want mothballing and unmothballing to be too quick and easy or there is a temptation to always mothball something if you will not be using it for even just a brief period. If the ship can't move until a construction ship comes to unmothball it and it requires a visit from a construction ship to mothball it in the first place that would go a long way towards balancing it.



Well, I'm thinking that to bring a ship or ships out of mothball would cost some resources and/or some cash. Also, it would take a turn or so to bring the ship(s) out of mothball.

This idea came from Space Empires V....anyone remember this?

_____________________________

"Tho' much is taken, much abides; and though we are not now that strength which in old days moved Earth and Heaven; that which we are, we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts, made weak by time and fate, but strong in will." -Tennyson

(in reply to Aures)
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