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First impressions - 8/28/2010 1:34:12 AM   
boshar

 

Posts: 33
Joined: 4/1/2003
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline
I have the game since thursday. I have about 12 hours of playingtime now. I mainly played the short Netherlands scenario because its closest to home. Please note that I'm enjoying this game but there are a few things I'd like to see changed or fixed.

Historical accuracy
There are annoying typo's in the game. On the map we have Arnehm (Arnhem how can you get that one wrong?), Renen (Rhenen), Gornichem (Gorinchem), Zieriksee (Zierikzee) and strangly all the city names are in Dutch except Den Haag wich is called The Hague.

The Fokker D.XII is mentioned in the Allied brief as Fokker D.X-I. These are just a few of the typo's that caught my eye.

Unit density
This might be a problem only in this scenario but due to the unit density and ZOC its hard to man the historic defense lines. There are no Dutch troops in the IJssel line and Maas line. Historically most of the bridges in these area's where blown. Now we need at least a regiment and a bit of luck to blow the bridges. Maybe an action card or a chance percentage that a prepared bridge will blow up is a better solution.

Also even though we miss the northern part of the operations area we still get the units that where used in the north (1. Kavallerie-Division). Historically this division attacked north and tried to cross the Afsluitdiijk.

Airborn troops
Even in the historic scenario the German player can do a drop anywhere on the map. Dropping the 7th Flieger Division on empty terrain gives you 3 full strength para regiments (100% supplies, readyness and integrity). The AI likes to do a tactical drop behind the 3rd Army (near Tricht). To me such a a-historcal result is dissapointing. It gets worse in the 2nd turn because the German player can then drop the entire 22nd Luftlande Division as if they where normal para's. This division has 3 100% strenght infantry regiments that are precisely the same as normal German infantry regiments (ie with their heavy weapons). Historicaly the 22nd Luftlande Division had to be flown in on captured airfields.

Maybe the airborne divisions can get a movement and orginisation penalty just after landing. Maybe make it random so we still can have a John Frost like capture of an objective but also experience the drawback of airborn operations.

AI
The AI is decent but on the larger Fall Gelb scenario I tried it sure takes its time (thats on a 2Ghz Dual core processor). It also seems to me that the AI analizes and moves one turn at a time. In the Netherlands scnario when one part of the line is weakend the AI can break off its attack made in previous turn in one area to move the units over to the weaker part. A human player would have pressed the ongoing attack.

The AI can be a lttle to agressive when playing the minor allies. Bypassed Dutch troops mounting an invasion of the Fatherland is a bit gamey. Maybe an AI doctrine can be introduced?

Strategic movement
This option can be abused as it is. You can move unit using its maximum move points, then pick it up an use strategic movement to put it anywhere you want (provided there is a rail connection of course). I could evacuate the entire 4th division via rail from the frontline when my Grebe line fell. There is no interdiction so the only penalty is losing half your readiness.

In now won this scenario once as Dutch (using the extra readiness option), once as the Germans (of course I used historic landing near Rotterdam and drove th 9th panzer to Moerdijk). My latest playtrough as Dutch (without extra readness) I just lost. I needed to hold the Germans off just one more day but morale shattered 1 day to soon (a shame as most of my forces and defense lines where intact).

I'm having a blast playing this game I already played it more then AT. I hope some of my suggestion get picked up in a patch or future AT game.
Post #: 1
RE: First impressions - 8/28/2010 2:04:04 AM   
krupp_88mm


Posts: 411
Joined: 10/13/2008
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quote:

2Ghz Dual core processor


found your problem^

(in reply to boshar)
Post #: 2
RE: First impressions - 8/28/2010 3:11:45 AM   
Sheytan


Posts: 830
Joined: 11/28/2006
Status: offline
Losing half your readiness IS a big punishment. If those units get hit after the strat move you can kiss them goodbye.

Vic did ask during Beta that the location names be proofed, but I do not think we had a Dutch betatester to check those names.

Interdection is a toss up. The air combat model works well enough for the game, and im not sure I want to play these scenarios with incessant air attacks when moving like say HPS Normandy when each unit gets pounded a few times each movement cycle. Besides what was the German sucess rate in interdicting rail movement at this stage of the war? IF we are going to poke holes in something lets bring some statictics to the table to back it up.

Edited to add another comment about interdiction, the French and Britsh were able to move entire armys into Belgium.

Regarding the air landed division you probably have a good point there.

Why is the AI attacking with by passed units gamey? Further all you need to do is cut their supply lines and they will wither and die on the vine.

And yes I agree with your summary that the game can be quite the nail biter.

quote:

ORIGINAL: boshar

I have the game since thursday. I have about 12 hours of playingtime now. I mainly played the short Netherlands scenario because its closest to home. Please note that I'm enjoying this game but there are a few things I'd like to see changed or fixed.

Historical accuracy
There are annoying typo's in the game. On the map we have Arnehm (Arnhem how can you get that one wrong?), Renen (Rhenen), Gornichem (Gorinchem), Zieriksee (Zierikzee) and strangly all the city names are in Dutch except Den Haag wich is called The Hague.

The Fokker D.XII is mentioned in the Allied brief as Fokker D.X-I. These are just a few of the typo's that caught my eye.

Unit density
This might be a problem only in this scenario but due to the unit density and ZOC its hard to man the historic defense lines. There are no Dutch troops in the IJssel line and Maas line. Historically most of the bridges in these area's where blown. Now we need at least a regiment and a bit of luck to blow the bridges. Maybe an action card or a chance percentage that a prepared bridge will blow up is a better solution.

Also even though we miss the northern part of the operations area we still get the units that where used in the north (1. Kavallerie-Division). Historically this division attacked north and tried to cross the Afsluitdiijk.

Airborn troops
Even in the historic scenario the German player can do a drop anywhere on the map. Dropping the 7th Flieger Division on empty terrain gives you 3 full strength para regiments (100% supplies, readyness and integrity). The AI likes to do a tactical drop behind the 3rd Army (near Tricht). To me such a a-historcal result is dissapointing. It gets worse in the 2nd turn because the German player can then drop the entire 22nd Luftlande Division as if they where normal para's. This division has 3 100% strenght infantry regiments that are precisely the same as normal German infantry regiments (ie with their heavy weapons). Historicaly the 22nd Luftlande Division had to be flown in on captured airfields.

Maybe the airborne divisions can get a movement and orginisation penalty just after landing. Maybe make it random so we still can have a John Frost like capture of an objective but also experience the drawback of airborn operations.

AI
The AI is decent but on the larger Fall Gelb scenario I tried it sure takes its time (thats on a 2Ghz Dual core processor). It also seems to me that the AI analizes and moves one turn at a time. In the Netherlands scnario when one part of the line is weakend the AI can break off its attack made in previous turn in one area to move the units over to the weaker part. A human player would have pressed the ongoing attack.

The AI can be a lttle to agressive when playing the minor allies. Bypassed Dutch troops mounting an invasion of the Fatherland is a bit gamey. Maybe an AI doctrine can be introduced?

Strategic movement
This option can be abused as it is. You can move unit using its maximum move points, then pick it up an use strategic movement to put it anywhere you want (provided there is a rail connection of course). I could evacuate the entire 4th division via rail from the frontline when my Grebe line fell. There is no interdiction so the only penalty is losing half your readiness.

In now won this scenario once as Dutch (using the extra readiness option), once as the Germans (of course I used historic landing near Rotterdam and drove th 9th panzer to Moerdijk). My latest playtrough as Dutch (without extra readness) I just lost. I needed to hold the Germans off just one more day but morale shattered 1 day to soon (a shame as most of my forces and defense lines where intact).

I'm having a blast playing this game I already played it more then AT. I hope some of my suggestion get picked up in a patch or future AT game.



< Message edited by Sheytan -- 8/28/2010 3:14:16 AM >

(in reply to boshar)
Post #: 3
RE: First impressions - 8/28/2010 3:13:31 AM   
Bamilus


Posts: 265
Joined: 4/30/2010
From: The Old Northwest
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On historical accuracy it was pointed out to me by a user (WilliePete) as I hadn't played the game yet (but have it bought) that in the Fall Weiss mission the Kempf Panzer Division includes [sic] "SS Gross Deutschland" regiment. GrossDeutschland has always been Heer so that is a kind of glaring error IMO but easily fixed. It's a common misconception because GD has always been an "elite" unit in the same vein as HG, SS-VT and later Waffen-SS so I can't blame Vic or anyone else.

There will always be errors, but so far the OOB seems to be pretty close to perfect.

< Message edited by Bamilus -- 8/28/2010 3:15:50 AM >


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Post #: 4
RE: First impressions - 8/28/2010 7:14:27 AM   
boshar

 

Posts: 33
Joined: 4/1/2003
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline
Hi Sheytan,

Thanks for your comments. As I said I realy like the game. I just want it to get even beter
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sheytan
Losing half your readiness IS a big punishment. If those units get hit after the strat move you can kiss them goodbye.


In that particular case I had the choice to strat move them out of trouble or loose 2 - 3 regiments. There are a lot of rail hexes in the Netherlands so I could move them as a reserve behind the next defense line.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sheytan
Vic did ask during Beta that the location names be proofed, but I do not think we had a Dutch betatester to check those names.


No problem (but it looks a little unfinished) , where can we send corrections?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sheytan
Interdection is a toss up. The air combat model works well enough for the game, and im not sure I want to play these scenarios with incessant air attacks when moving like say HPS Normandy when each unit gets pounded a few times each movement cycle. Besides what was the German sucess rate in interdicting rail movement at this stage of the war? IF we are going to poke holes in something lets bring some statictics to the table to back it up.

Edited to add another comment about interdiction, the French and Britsh were able to move entire armys into Belgium.


The problem with the French, British example is that moving into Belgium is what the Germans wanted them to do. If we look later in the war (Normandy 1944) the Germans had to do their moves by night to prevent heavy loses.

On this scale you could argue that strat moves are done during the night and that will explain that there is no interdiction. On the HPS scale the moves would be during the day and normandy 1944 is a bad place&time to hit the autobahn during rush hour.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sheytan
Regarding the air landed division you probably have a good point there.

Why is the AI attacking with by passed units gamey? Further all you need to do is cut their supply lines and they will wither and die on the vine.


The problem is that there are stil plenty of move points on the 1st and 2nd turn so you can try to cut the German supply lines. There are to few unit to pin the by passed units and as the German player you are on a tight shedule so staying another turn to deal with the unit wil cost to much time.

(in reply to Sheytan)
Post #: 5
RE: First impressions - 8/28/2010 7:29:24 AM   
Adam Parker


Posts: 1850
Joined: 4/2/2002
From: Melbourne Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bamilus

On historical accuracy it was pointed out to me by a user (WilliePete) as I hadn't played the game yet (but have it bought) that in the Fall Weiss mission the Kempf Panzer Division includes [sic] "SS Gross Deutschland" regiment. GrossDeutschland has always been Heer so that is a kind of glaring error IMO but easily fixed.


The GD Regiment did not serve in Poland 1939 at all.

Pz Div Kempf however did contain a unit called "SS Regiment Deutschland".

This went on in 1940 to form one of the three Infantry Regiments of the "Reich SS Motorised Division" - which in 1942 became "2nd SS Panzer Division Das Reich"

(in reply to Bamilus)
Post #: 6
RE: First impressions - 8/28/2010 7:44:41 AM   
Sheytan


Posts: 830
Joined: 11/28/2006
Status: offline
Oh do not misunderstand me. I really appreciate you commenting about likes dislikes and how to improve, as Victor does im sure. During beta testing I had my share of things I poked with a stick too. And as a aside to that I am simply a ex tester.

Regarding proofing location names in Holland I would suggest you start a "Location Corrections" thread, and lets see if we can get it stickyed here. I am sure Victor would appreciate any help you or anyone else wished to provide related to this.

Regarding cut off/bypassed units you are of course correct, they still have the ability to function a turn or two until supply deprivation kills their mobility. But this is also a toss up, its a matter of you as the commander to decide how to allocate your forces to insure you maintain pockets. I personally was forced to resort to using engineer units to help insure the pockets didnt cause any havoc. A dangerous move to be sure, but again its a trade off, stand and reduce the pocket thus slowing your advance or find a solution that is within the context of risk/tradeoff.

I dont think I will further argue the interdiction issue however. I do not recall ever reading anything detailed enough about the effectiveness or lack thereof in relation to German efforts in this area. Someone else may be better versed to comment on this.



quote:

ORIGINAL: boshar

Hi Sheytan,

Thanks for your comments. As I said I realy like the game. I just want it to get even beter
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sheytan
Losing half your readiness IS a big punishment. If those units get hit after the strat move you can kiss them goodbye.


In that particular case I had the choice to strat move them out of trouble or loose 2 - 3 regiments. There are a lot of rail hexes in the Netherlands so I could move them as a reserve behind the next defense line.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sheytan
Vic did ask during Beta that the location names be proofed, but I do not think we had a Dutch betatester to check those names.


No problem (but it looks a little unfinished) , where can we send corrections?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sheytan
Interdection is a toss up. The air combat model works well enough for the game, and im not sure I want to play these scenarios with incessant air attacks when moving like say HPS Normandy when each unit gets pounded a few times each movement cycle. Besides what was the German sucess rate in interdicting rail movement at this stage of the war? IF we are going to poke holes in something lets bring some statictics to the table to back it up.

Edited to add another comment about interdiction, the French and Britsh were able to move entire armys into Belgium.


The problem with the French, British example is that moving into Belgium is what the Germans wanted them to do. If we look later in the war (Normandy 1944) the Germans had to do their moves by night to prevent heavy loses.

On this scale you could argue that strat moves are done during the night and that will explain that there is no interdiction. On the HPS scale the moves would be during the day and normandy 1944 is a bad place&time to hit the autobahn during rush hour.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sheytan
Regarding the air landed division you probably have a good point there.

Why is the AI attacking with by passed units gamey? Further all you need to do is cut their supply lines and they will wither and die on the vine.


The problem is that there are stil plenty of move points on the 1st and 2nd turn so you can try to cut the German supply lines. There are to few unit to pin the by passed units and as the German player you are on a tight shedule so staying another turn to deal with the unit wil cost to much time.


(in reply to boshar)
Post #: 7
RE: First impressions - 8/28/2010 8:26:32 AM   
U2


Posts: 3326
Joined: 7/17/2001
From: Västerås,Sweden
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Guys,

where are SS Totenkopf and GD regiment in the Fall Gelb scenario? Am I blind or something?

(in reply to Sheytan)
Post #: 8
RE: First impressions - 8/28/2010 10:29:47 AM   
Vic


Posts: 3655
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I encourage making these sort of observations, suggestions and pointing out of mistakes very much. Like the GD issue. I am compiling a list of everything that comes in and will make changes to the scenarios with the first patch.

If you point out something is historically wrong please also point out what should be the case in your opinion.

Its very much appreciated and your input will help make this a more historical, consistent and detailed game.

@boshar
thanks for gorinchem and arnhem... i think i might be a bit dislectic. i should really have spotted this myself.
but for example Zieriksee and Renen were actually called that in 1939. also thanks for all the other criticisms.

about strategic transfer the most important limitation i think is you cannot do combat or transfer from just conquered territory.

@u2,
the GD is missing yes. good point. thank you.
I might make SS Totenkopf division available as a reinforcement through card. No promise here though.

best
vic








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Post #: 9
RE: First impressions - 8/28/2010 11:43:56 AM   
Hexagon

 

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Joined: 6/14/2009
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Well, i only do a first contact with the game, find it great but need some improvements like:

-See air units range, only can do this if you want do a recon fly but know what is the range of your bombers and fighters is a very important feature and need be present (is very important to know if you need move or not an unit).

-Results... well, in the datail results you see many information but not the most important, enemy casualties and own casualties, i think that something that you can see in AI/rival turns combat report is necessary.

-Highlight units, when you select an unit you know what is the mother division but need something to see better on map the rest of division units, same for superior levels, if you select an unit of X corps i want see the rest of units of X corps highlighted and move to superior formation of the corps and do the same.

-made entrenched level visible on map, is interesting see the enemy entrench level without select it with medium and low zoom, for example per every 25% add a level, 1-2-3-4.... and show it in the counter.

-A resume of full division strenght, you can know the number of soldiers in a regiment but cand know the total for a division... and maybe for the stats add a number with the bar is interesting.

-Ooooo in the OOB, is possible see all units??? you can only see one unit in a division but cant rotate and see the rest of units.

And nothing more, only see the game a few minutes

PD: base is great, know need the "little" fixes.

(in reply to Vic)
Post #: 10
RE: First impressions - 8/29/2010 7:41:21 AM   
sillyflower


Posts: 1257
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: London
Status: offline
Good game Vic and team. Seems very well thought out and good defensive AI. Have not seen it on offense yet.

My minor points are:

1 It's very hard to keep track of divisions/corps/armies as has been mentioned by others. Some sort of ability to highlight would really help.
2 Unit comparator - excellent and useful idea but most aircraft seem to be missing
3 I don't get the 'black cloud' showing AP effect of going through combat hexes.I don't know if this is just me.
4 A toggle to make it easier to see VP hexes would be a bonus

My questions:

1 Do generals' cards last for more than 1 turn and do they affect all units under command?
2 What is the range of commanders for units to get their combat bonuses?


(in reply to Hexagon)
Post #: 11
RE: First impressions - 8/29/2010 9:24:15 AM   
Blind Sniper


Posts: 760
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From: Turin, Italy
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quote:

1 Do generals' cards last for more than 1 turn and do they affect all units under command?


I think it depends, Infantry Attack card is only for the current turn and free (I believe that you can play it every turn), Ready Unit is one shot, the morale stays increased but I don't know if you can play it again.

I guess they affect just one unit.

quote:

2 What is the range of commanders for units to get their combat bonuses?


Vic's answer found in another post:
HQ Range is 8 hex for 100% HQPower and drops 20% for each extra hex.

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Post #: 12
RE: First impressions - 8/29/2010 1:43:58 PM   
boshar

 

Posts: 33
Joined: 4/1/2003
From: the Netherlands
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

@boshar
thanks for gorinchem and arnhem... i think i might be a bit dislectic. i should really have spotted this myself.
but for example Zieriksee and Renen were actually called that in 1939. also thanks for all the other criticisms.



Hi Vic,

Didn't take the old spelling into account. I compiled a list as was suggested by Sheytan. Did include an external ref for the Zuiderzee correction.

75,7 THE HAGUE - DEN HAAG (all other Dutch places are in Dutch)
101,12 ARNEHM - ARNHEM (typo)
88,17 GORNICHEM - GORINCHEM (typo)
arround 92,1 ZUIDERZEE - IJSSELMEER (in 1932 the Afsluitdijk was finished. Since then this body of water changed its name to IJsselmeer http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuiderzee_(water) )

I did retract my argument for interdiction during strat mov as on this scale (1 or 2 days per turn) the strat move can be imagined being done during the night. Losing half the readiness then simulates al the night action and disruption such a move would cost.

I do hope you tune down the Airborne cards for the German player. Having the 7th Flieger Division and the 22nd Luftlande divsion land full strength and fully organised is a bit hard on the Allied side. On the other hand I would argue that the Airborne troops get a (re)supply bonus to simulate supply by air.

(in reply to Vic)
Post #: 13
RE: First impressions - 8/30/2010 3:54:01 PM   
boshar

 

Posts: 33
Joined: 4/1/2003
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline
Hi Vic

Did some background research on the Netherlands campaign in Fall Gelb and noticed that 1940 sources already call Renen Rhenen.

Just look at the original Stafkaarten detailing the Dutch defensive positions in may 1940. http://www.grebbeberg.nl/index.php?page=staf--en-overzichtskaarten&p=4

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Post #: 14
RE: First impressions - 8/30/2010 4:58:41 PM   
Vic


Posts: 3655
Joined: 5/17/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: boshar

Hi Vic

Did some background research on the Netherlands campaign in Fall Gelb and noticed that 1940 sources already call Renen Rhenen.

Just look at the original Stafkaarten detailing the Dutch defensive positions in may 1940. http://www.grebbeberg.nl/index.php?page=staf--en-overzichtskaarten&p=4


Talk about details, but I just rechecked 2 dutch atlasses from 1939 and both refer to Rhenen as Renen. There must have been some naming conflict going on. I'll surprise you next patch about the fate of the naming of this town ;)

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Post #: 15
RE: First impressions - 8/30/2010 5:45:11 PM   
colberki

 

Posts: 153
Joined: 6/16/2007
Status: offline
I finished my first campaign game as the Germans - we failed to capture Warsaw by September 23 finishing on 41 VPs. I am very pleased with the AI for defeating me! My troops got with sight of Warsaw - wow so many big units still around protecting the city. As Warsaw is a supply source, even had i surrounded its garrison, it would be a tough fight! Polish losses were 55 percent; German 7 percent.

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Post #: 16
RE: First impressions - 2/1/2011 6:56:40 AM   
iamaster

 

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Although i have no particular interest in such games, but no doubt you have really done a great job by placing such thread to impress people like me. I appreciate the way you have done it. Please keep updating us with your new stuff. Looking forward for your next thread.

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Post #: 17
RE: First impressions - 9/16/2013 11:25:03 PM   
Hanti

 

Posts: 73
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From: Poland
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Talk about map details. I only played Polish scenario. The map has a mix of city names in Poland, which is rather confusing and looks awful. It will be better to use standard naming conversion instead: e.g. either use Polish names (Warszawa, Krakow), English names (Warsaw, Cracow) or German names (Warschau, Krakau).

There are lots of such errors.

Second point: Polish cavalry was in fact elite infantry, so should have better experience anyway. Horses were their transport equipment.
Polish equipment is rather strange also ;)

(in reply to Vic)
Post #: 18
RE: First impressions - 11/7/2013 3:44:09 PM   
wodin


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Hanti I'm English and would say Warsaw and Krakow (most likely due to be a military history nut. So I really see no problem from an Englishmans perspective.

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Post #: 19
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