High Altitude Sweep Rant

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mbatch729
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High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by mbatch729 »

Ok, been away from the forums for a while, but understand from my opponent that there is debate going on about high altitude sweeps. Below is a typical result from our game. And even though the results say 12 lost, it was actually 20. His high altitude sweeps are KILLING my fighters. The below group average experience was 77. I've had similar results against groups that have 85-90 experience. Plenty of air support/supplies/etc at the bases. I'm to the point of grounding all my fighters. No point in putting up CAP...

Morning Air attack on Magwe , at 57,47
Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid spotted at 38 NM, estimated altitude 39,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 21
Allied aircraft
Hurricane IIb Trop x 16
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 12 destroyed
Aircraft Attacking:
6 x Hurricane IIb Trop sweeping at 36000 feet *
CAP engaged:
Kanoya Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (21 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
21 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 32810
Raid is overhead
Later,
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SqzMyLemon
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by SqzMyLemon »

I feel your pain. There are numerous threads on the issue so I'd suggest wading into those ones instead of starting another one [;)]. The air model is supposedly working as intended and there are numerous variables coming into play, but personally I think the skill of the pilot and the maneuverability of the aircraft have been downgraded to the point of impotence. Speed and altitude trump everything.
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crsutton
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by crsutton »

Well the debate had burned out and now just smolders in the background. Occasionly, a brushfire will break out. I am guessing one might start up now. Caster Troy, you want to take this one?  [:D] 
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CapAndGown
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by CapAndGown »

let me just add: [:@][:@][:@][:@][:@][:@][:@][:@][:@][:@]
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KenchiSulla
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by KenchiSulla »

In my PBEM with Arnhem we agreed on "manoeuver rating" limitations on altitude. So far I am happy with it. Havent talked about it with Arnhem but it seems to be fair.

A fictional fighter has the following man. ratings

0-10k ft (30) 10-15k ft (30) 15-20k ft (28) etc

It max allowed altitude is 15k feet

A fictional fighter has the following man. ratings

0-10k ft (15) 10-15k ft (15) 15-20k ft (15) 20-25k ft (11)

It max allowed altitude is 20k feet

I am sure there is more info about it on the forum.
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topeverest
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by topeverest »

CAP,

To say so much without using words!
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by EUBanana »

I'm sure <censored to protect the guilty> will be on hand in a sec to tell you how everything is fine and how deep the tactics of aerial combat are, and maybe that you just suck, soon. [;)]
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by Sardaukar »

<counter-teminus mode on> Yes. <counter-terminus-mode off>
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by EUBanana »

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

In my PBEM with Arnhem we agreed on "manoeuver rating" limitations on altitude. So far I am happy with it. Havent talked about it with Arnhem but it seems to be fair.

A fictional fighter has the following man. ratings

0-10k ft (30) 10-15k ft (30) 15-20k ft (28) etc

It max allowed altitude is 15k feet

A fictional fighter has the following man. ratings

0-10k ft (15) 10-15k ft (15) 15-20k ft (15) 20-25k ft (11)

It max allowed altitude is 20k feet

I am sure there is more info about it on the forum.

Problem I have with this sort of thing is it merely swaps one god stat (ceiling) for another god stat (some derived stat based on maneuver bands), which is just as unfair as just using ceiling. You're just changing which fighters get to fly higher.

Probably the fairest way is just to cap everybody at 20k', which all fighters can reach. Simpler, too. So basically you remove the bounce entirely from fighter-fighter combat without bomber involvement.
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EUBanana
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by EUBanana »

That said. Split CAP seems to work so you could try that.

Have some Zeroes at 10k feet as bait.
Have some more Zeroes at ceiling.

Some Hurricanes will dive the Zeroes at 10k feet, and be dived in turn by the higher Zeroes.
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Sardaukar
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by Sardaukar »

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

In my PBEM with Arnhem we agreed on "manoeuver rating" limitations on altitude. So far I am happy with it. Havent talked about it with Arnhem but it seems to be fair.

A fictional fighter has the following man. ratings

0-10k ft (30) 10-15k ft (30) 15-20k ft (28) etc

It max allowed altitude is 15k feet

A fictional fighter has the following man. ratings

0-10k ft (15) 10-15k ft (15) 15-20k ft (15) 20-25k ft (11)

It max allowed altitude is 20k feet

I am sure there is more info about it on the forum.

Problem I have with this sort of thing is it merely swaps one god stat (ceiling) for another god stat (some derived stat based on maneuver bands), which is just as unfair as just using ceiling. You're just changing which fighters get to fly higher.

Probably the fairest way is just to cap everybody at 20k', which all fighters can reach. Simpler, too. So basically you remove the bounce entirely from fighter-fighter combat without bomber involvement.

Unfortunately that removes advantage from fighters that actually were historically good high-altitude performers, like P-47. So 20k max ceiling is not really fair either.
"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-

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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by KenchiSulla »

The good thing about our "solution" is that for example the P47 gets to fly up to 25k feet since its man. bands work like that.... Planes that were quite good B&Z in real life get the chance to do so... for the most part
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KenchiSulla
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by KenchiSulla »

Probably the fairest way is just to cap everybody at 20k', which all fighters can reach. Simpler, too. So basically you remove the bounce entirely from fighter-fighter combat without bomber involvement.

This will give planes with high man. (Japanese) most advantages..... Now unless the game will get a "evade combat if disadvantaged" you will keep having problems with the system. We just have to work with what we have got...
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Sardaukar
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by Sardaukar »

I tested this a bit in earlier thread and pilot experience & defensive skill are big factors and will offset altitude advantage. So if defender is more experienced, he will usually win the fight even when enemy has altitude advantage.
&nbsp;
Split CAP is also one possibility, if your pilots do not have exp advantage over opposition. That is, putting one unit to CAP 15k and other to 5k in same base, for example.
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by Sardaukar »

My "The Elf-approved" post about it is here:

tm.asp?m=2519677&mpage=7 

What I think is that is't bit of paper, rock, scissors-situation, where you often have more than one thing stacked against you.

For example, if enemy has better plane (SPD, MVR, Climb, DUR, Armour), it's advantage. Experience and skills are big advantage, altitude is also big advantage.

In some situations, for example, not many tactical decisions make you win the battle. Lets take for example Malaya with Zeroes vs. Buffaloes. Now you are against way better plane with way better pilots. If they also come from above (as any IJ player would unless escorting), you are in world of hurt. No amount of split CAP will offset at least 3 advantages, maybe at least 4 if they also have better Air Leader. It may lower the kill ratio a bit, but Buffaloes are going to get creamed even if numbers are similar. I have no doubt about that numerical advantage skews the results even more.

I tried to have approx. same number of planes engaging in my tests and achieved it with max. +/- 2 plane difference. But if enemy also has double number planes with all those advantages...

In situation like that, I suggest not to fight but pull back and train your pilots so that at least skill levels are comparable before engaging. Sometimes there are no other options but to fight, though. On the other hand, if opposition is sweeping, those planes are not escorting bombers, so you may be able to even the score now and then by killing unescorted bombers. Kills raise pilot exp and skills quickly.

To me, it seems that saving better pilots (70+) and sticking them to elite formations is best way to counter enemy a/c superiority locally. Exp/skills seem to be big modifiers. For Japan, it probably also pays to invest R&D to planes that can somewhat compete with allies in altitude. For example, Ki-61 Hien/Tony was historically about only plane that could challenge Allied planes high during mid-war. If starting to get high-altitude sweeps from planes like P-47/P-38, that is bad place to be in Zero/Oscar.

There are many modifiers in A2A combat in AE, but some patters can be distinguished. Like, altitude itself is not only thing that kills. Altitude and Exp/skill edge combined is big killer. Add to that better planes and situation gets darker for defender. Defender can lessen the impact by building his pilots to higher exp/skill level and hope for better planes. Or just try to outnumber enemy with experienced pilots. But it's always bad situation if number of factors are stacked against you.
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by Puhis »

ORIGINAL: mbatch729

Ok, been away from the forums for a while, but understand from my opponent that there is debate going on about high altitude sweeps. Below is a typical result from our game. And even though the results say 12 lost, it was actually 20. His high altitude sweeps are KILLING my fighters. The below group average experience was 77. I've had similar results against groups that have 85-90 experience. Plenty of air support/supplies/etc at the bases. I'm to the point of grounding all my fighters. No point in putting up CAP...

I know! [:@]

When I started my PBEM games, I did want to play "historical" way. But my other opponent start using high altitude sweeps and CAPs. Stupid me, but for a while my planes were flying at 20000 ft. So Hurricanes murdered my Oscars. Usually I did lose 10-15 planes, when he lost just one Hurricane (if I was lucky). That did piss me off, so now my Oscars are flying at 38500 feet. During last sweep Oscars shot down 12 Hurricanes, and no japanese losses.

My suggestion is that you need Oscars to counter Hurricanes. Oscars can fly higher... [:D]


IMO this altitude flaw is biggest problem in this game. Any other issues really are negligible.
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castor troy
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by castor troy »

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Well the debate had burned out and now just smolders in the background. Occasionly, a brushfire will break out. I am guessing one might start up now. Caster Troy, you want to take this one?  [:D] 


not really, everything has been said on this issue I guess. Not that I would feel it is anywhere correct nor better than WITP where altitude did NOT matter at all. I just want to point out that it first long was said by the responsible person everything is fine until we reached the point that the air team lead actually was admitting it would be kind of an exploit.

Unfortunetely even that it now is admitted it would be an exploit, it doesn´t seem that there would be any thoughts of changing something which makes me a bit sad. While I am fine with hrs on lots of things, I have yet to think of any I would accept on this matter.

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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by tigercub »

Well in my game The max att alt is 26,000 for fighter on cap and sweeps 25,000 max so the defender gets a helping hand.

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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by Walloc »

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

I tested this a bit in earlier thread and pilot experience & defensive skill are big factors and will offset altitude advantage. So if defender is more experienced, he will usually win the fight even when enemy has altitude advantage.

Hi Sardaukar,

I saw that test and agree ur conclusions in what it showed as u did it.
Non the less considering the reported avg exp in this case 77+ and the fact that he loses 20 out of 21 planes = 95% loss rate. I would say i do hafta wonder. I cant imagien tho the brit starts with good figther pilots that they are at that level as OP zeroes had. Ofc i could be wrong, and there can be many more factors involved that OP doesnt provide. Fatigue and so on.
Maybe OP can ask his opponent on those numbers and divulge more info, like both fatigue levels and that would help.

Kind regards,

Rasmus
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Jaroen
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by Jaroen »

Although a lot has been said by a lot of people it was stated by the designers it is working as designed.
After some penetrating questioning it was not quite explained how those odd results could occur.

But . . . I think it has very much to do with the skill ratings involved! Not only experience, plane quality and altitude differences. I've had some very good CAP results against Japanese Oscar armada's on top of my Hurricanes. Those Hurricane pilots have the defensive skill and this greatly reduces the effect of possible sweeper advantages. Even more so when those sweepers lack the air skill. The other way around my Hurricane pilots do reasonably good when sweeping even when on lower altitudes than the defending Oscars. Of course all things being equal (experience, air, defense and plane quality) it might help to have an altitude advantage but it certainly isn't much especially when plane performance is not optimal. Just make sure your pilots have a better air/defense skill!!!

So to have a more balanced explaination on the air battle from the original poster we need the relevant skill levels (air/defense) aside from experience.
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