Matrix Games Forums

Battle Academy Mega Pack releases on SteamDeal of the Week Da Vinci's Art of WarCivil War II Patch 1.4 public BetaHappy Easter!Battle Academy is now available on SteamPlayers compare Ageods Civil War to Civil War IIDeal of the week - An updated War in the East goes half Price!Sign up for the Qvadriga beta for iPad and Android!Come and say hi at Pax and SaluteLegends of War goes on sale!
Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Panzer Command: Ostfront >> After Action Reports >> RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov Page: <<   < prev  4 5 6 [7] 8   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 9/2/2010 4:15:25 AM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12884
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: offline
You missed it by that much...

(in reply to Stridor)
Post #: 181
RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 9/2/2010 11:00:32 AM   
spellir74

 

Posts: 1984
Joined: 6/15/2008
Status: offline
You want to throw smoke where I've indicated. Probably with the depleted squad.

You want to eventually move up some HT to cover inf, while ducking the T34s.

Focus on that near ATR first(maybe with tank help, easing up on the road sov inf for a moment). Then tanks focus on the road's ATR first. Once ATR are gone the HTs can cover attacks on the SMG and Maxims.

----
When established with a first squad in a building don't just fire right away at targets in other buildings. "Def hold all". Have other inf [manually] bound over them. That's when that first squad open ("good shot"?).




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 182
RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 9/2/2010 4:04:55 PM   
[hirr]Leto

 

Posts: 17
Joined: 8/25/2010
Status: offline
Is there a toggle that allows all units to be more easily seen? I'm having trouble picking out stuff. Also, how do I know what kind of FP the German squad has compared to the Russian squad? The problem here is that I am not keen on moving 3 squads in to take on a lone SMG squad, if I cannot calculate risk and probability on the attack strength of the squads that are about to enter combat. In CM, those FP ratings were easily illustrated through targeting a unit directly and through the FP factors found in the unit data for AFV's. This is much too murky for me to understand anything.

Thanks in advance!

Cheers!

Leto

(in reply to spellir74)
Post #: 183
RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 9/2/2010 4:57:12 PM   
Tophat1812

 

Posts: 1530
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline
I was under the impression there was no smoke capability? Or was that just for the panzers? If you have smoke pop it now and get out of the open and into the buildings.

(in reply to [hirr]Leto)
Post #: 184
RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 9/2/2010 5:05:48 PM   
spellir74

 

Posts: 1984
Joined: 6/15/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: [hirr]Leto

Is there a toggle that allows all units to be more easily seen? I'm having trouble picking out stuff. Also, how do I know what kind of FP the German squad has compared to the Russian squad? The problem here is that I am not keen on moving 3 squads in to take on a lone SMG squad, if I cannot calculate risk and probability on the attack strength of the squads that are about to enter combat. In CM, those FP ratings were easily illustrated through targeting a unit directly and through the FP factors found in the unit data for AFV's. This is much too murky for me to understand anything.

Thanks in advance!

Cheers!

Leto



Click on the unit; then click on the "Specs" button on UI; compare. I don't know if that gives specifically "firepower" but you should be able to get a better feel for whose who by "Specs" comparisons.

(in reply to [hirr]Leto)
Post #: 185
RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 9/2/2010 5:07:26 PM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12884
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: offline
Leto you can increase unit size with the ' key and decrease with /

See the red Specs button? Click that for your firepower etc.

(in reply to Tophat1812)
Post #: 186
RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 9/2/2010 5:07:39 PM   
spellir74

 

Posts: 1984
Joined: 6/15/2008
Status: offline
The earlier _PzIII_ 50mm don't have smoke shells. Other tanks and AG do; eg PzIV, StuG. German Infantry squad has one smoke grenade each per scenario.

(in reply to Tophat1812)
Post #: 187
RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 9/2/2010 5:23:49 PM   
[hirr]Leto

 

Posts: 17
Joined: 8/25/2010
Status: offline
Can someone post a specs screenshot of the russian and German squads for comparison?

Thanks!

Cheers!

Leto

(in reply to spellir74)
Post #: 188
RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 9/2/2010 5:24:43 PM   
[hirr]Leto

 

Posts: 17
Joined: 8/25/2010
Status: offline
Also, are the specs dynamic as to consider losses? IE. full squad specs show X firepower, and diminished squad specs show X-x firepower?

Cheers!

Leto

(in reply to [hirr]Leto)
Post #: 189
RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 9/2/2010 6:03:07 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 32564
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
Hi guys,

You are absolutely correct. It's time to post some infantry specs and discuss those, otherwise I can't expect you to have a good basis for decision-making. Before I run the next turn, I'll post some spec screens of the different infantry squads and teams here and discuss how to interpret their stats.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to [hirr]Leto)
Post #: 190
RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 9/3/2010 4:05:36 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 32564
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
Ok, let's start with our Panzergrenadiers. I'll post the spec screens first, then discuss the stats in a separate post.








Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 191
RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 9/3/2010 4:06:51 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 32564
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
Here's the Soviet SMG squad that I'm facing in this scenario.





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 192
RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 9/3/2010 4:08:38 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 32564
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
The Maxim MMG team.






Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 193
RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 9/3/2010 4:11:44 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 32564
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
A Soviet ATR Team.






Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 194
RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 9/3/2010 4:12:14 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 32564
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
One of our SdKfz 250 Halftracks.






Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 195
RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 9/3/2010 4:13:37 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 32564
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
Our MG-42 Team.






Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 196
RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 9/3/2010 4:38:27 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 32564
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
Ok, now to discuss those stats.

I'm not going to get into a lot of details, but rather I'll try to hit the highlights so that you know basically how things work. The Panzer Command system is based around what on a table top would be a d10, or ten-sided die. In Panzer Command, this die is "open ended" which means that you can end up rolling below a one and above a 10, but the chance is much less than rolling in the normal 1-10 range.

For combat against infantry, each unit has a rating for its accuracy and firepower up to a particular range in meters for each of its "weapons". Interposing terrain and the terrain that the target is in (like a wood or a building) can affect accuracy and firepower, generally in a negative manner (whereas if your target is running in the open, your firepower may be increased).

Let's compare the German Panzergrenadier Squad to the Soviet SMG Squad (their accuracy is the same). Note that the Panzergrenadiers are twice the cost (11 vs. 5 points). There are also some other factors listed here that make the Panzergrenadiers a bit better. Their morale is a bit better and they have higher "initiative" than the Soviet squad, but we'll ignore those for now.

Let's look at firepower by range band:

-------------------------30 Meters-----100 Meters-----150 Meters-----200 Meters-----250 Meters-----300 Meters
Firepower Pzgren----- 6 ----- 5 ----- 3 ----- 2 ----- 1 ----- 0
Firepower SMG-------- 5 ----- 2 ----- 0 ----- -1 ----- -2 ----- -2

The SMG squad has a Firepower of 5 out to about 50 Meters, so at that range these two squads are about even. After that though, the Panzergrenadiers start to get a real advantage, thanks largely to their two squad MGs.

In very simplified terms, your firepower is the number you need to roll equal to or under on that d10 to have a chance of causing actual casualties to the enemy. You can still suppress, pin or cause a morale check to the enemy if you roll over your firepower, but you can only cause casualties if you roll equal to or below. As you can see, at 30 meters there's a very good chance of causing casualties with each "roll", but not as much at longer ranges where suppression/pinning/morale tend to be the main results. Since the "roll" is open-ended though, it's theoretically possible to roll equal to or under that -2 and cause casualties even with a very low firepower value, it's just quite unlikely.

If you succeed in causing casualties, there's a separate resolution to determine how many casualties you cause. You can in theory wipe out a squad in a very short time, or whittle them down bit by bit until they rout or are destroyed. Teams are generally more vulnerable than full squads and more experienced troops are less likely to take serious casualties than green troops.

Now we are on the attack and there is a significant penalty to firepower if you are firing while moving. The Soviet SMG squad is also getting protection from the Building it's in, perhaps as much as a reduction of 2 to our Firepower, while we are getting relatively little protection from the woods as we are moving through them (moving tends to decrease the protection you get from terrain). When we are near the edge of the woods, we're exchanging fire at around 100-150m with the Soviet SMG squad. Let's say 100 Meters. The Soviet SMG squad is getting all of its 2 Firepower since it's stationary in that building. We are moving which is reducing our firepower and the building they are in is reducing it further, leaving us with probably a 1 firepower rating compared to their 2. Note that casualties also reduce firepower (suppression and pinnning can too), so that lead squad is probably down another 2-3 points of firepower with heavy casualties.

The end result is that if we are stationary and more than 50 meters away from one of those Soviet SMG squads, we have a pretty big advantage. But once it's in a heavy building and we're moving to attack and firing while moving, we are at a disadvantage. If we want to out-shoot it, we have two real options. The first is to find a favorable range, probably between 100-150 Meters and just start firing at the enemy and keep firing until they are fully pinned and have taken some casualties. This will make them much less effective as we then charge in. The second option is to go ahead and charge in - once we enter the building with them, we will be effectively "stationary" and at full firepower without them getting cover from the building. The bad news is, they are a match for us in close quarters fighting and we may well end up on the bad side of that exchange.

Now if you compare our firepower to the ATR team, you'll see that close assaulting them is very much in our favor, as is any firefight. At the same time, their penetration is high enough that they pose a threat to our Panzers at close range.

The Maxim MMG and the MG-42 have as their main advantage that they offer equal or greater firepower than a squad at medium to long ranges, but are much less effective at close quarters fighting. They are also quite effective at suppression/pinning as a result and have a larger "area fire" box than most squads.

Note also that our infantry all have smoke grenades (one "shot" per squad). The previous suggestion about putting down some smoke to block the LOS of the T-34s is a very good one and more use of smoke may help us get into the village.

I hope that helps explain the basics of what to consider here. Let me know if you have any more questions.

Regards,

- Erik

< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 9/3/2010 4:40:22 AM >


_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 197
RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 9/3/2010 4:10:04 PM   
dazoline II


Posts: 364
Joined: 11/5/2007
Status: offline
I'd move the left most platoon to that building near where their current move strings end, hopefully its a two squad building and the remaining squad can hang around the end opposite the tanks. This will provide a fire base into the village.
Get the carrier in the last screen shot to fire at the maxim mmg squad and the mg42 to fire at the squad in the assault target building.

Hold the assault for one more turn to get some suppression on the targeted units.

How does smoke work? Does it obscure los on the same round its used and will last multiple rounds? If so we can probably hold smoke until the assault goes in.

_____________________________

Moscow by winter? Only if you send Fast Heinz to Kiev.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 198
RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 9/3/2010 4:32:14 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 32564
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
Smoke takes a little while to build up and then lasts for a while before it starts to dissipate. Generally a good idea to use it a full turn before you want it to obscure something.

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to dazoline II)
Post #: 199
RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 9/3/2010 5:59:16 PM   
Rick

 

Posts: 11837
Joined: 4/20/2000
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Ok, now to discuss those stats.

I hope that helps explain the basics of what to consider here. Let me know if you have any more questions.

Regards,

- Erik


Erik,

Thanks for that explanation - I picked up some good tips there!

Rick

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 200
RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 9/4/2010 2:31:35 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 32564
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
Ok, time for another installment!

Here are the plots for Turn 26. I order two of the lead squads to use their smoke grenades to obscure the line of fire for the T-34s. I'm confident that without their firepower, our Panzergrenadiers can get into those buildings and take control of them.

I intended to Rush 1st Platoon forward to that building ahead of them (which can hold two squads), but they're tired again, so they rest instead. I should note that they've been hiking through some deep snow in the woods, which does make them more fatigued, but ultimately this is just a beta issue that is already fixed, but which we have to work around for this AAR.

I order the closest Panzer to put Area HE fire on the building with the ATR team.

I order three of the other four Panzers to move towards the village, trying to make sure they keep some buildings between them and the T-34s.






Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Rick)
Post #: 201
RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 9/4/2010 2:41:37 AM   
Tophat1812

 

Posts: 1530
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline
This will work out better with the delay anyway.Remember you had said takes the smoke a turn to billow and form a reasonable cover.Also you get to bring more tank support closer as well as bring up the other infantry.And you might actually suppress those smg and atr boys.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 202
RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 9/4/2010 2:51:52 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 32564
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
We made some progress... we managed to suppress and cause casualties to the ATR team and the SMG squad (which is in fact pinned). The Area Fire from the nearby Panzer helped, though it's starting to run low on HE ammo.

One smoke grenade went off and is building up a smoke screen (the other one was not tossed as that squad was pinned).

I'll run another turn and see how things go.






Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 203
RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 9/4/2010 3:03:43 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 32564
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
We're moving in! The smoke has built up enough and we've had some good results from our suppression fire. The Soviet troops in the nearby buildings are in bad shape and the T-34s have no direct shot to prevent us getting in there. I give 3rd Platoon Rush orders. 2nd Platoon is stationary to provide supporting fire if possible and 1st Platoon and the MG are suppressing the Soviet infantry on the other road into town.

The Panzers are in position much closer to the village and are raking the road with their MGs and HE shells. The Soviet troops on the road have taken serious casualties, with some teams and squads wiped out.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 204
RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 9/4/2010 3:12:37 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 32564
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
Due to suppression and pinning, the 3rd Platoon HQ squad was the closest to the first building and they do indeed make it in! Most of a phase of close quarters combat ensues, but is not yet decisive. We should hopefully have this building cleared next turn, but it's great that we made it in. The smoke is dissipating a bit near the building, though I tossed a few more smoke grenades last turn. I'll need to toss a few more before 2nd Platoon moves in.

The Soviets used some smoke of their own, blocking the LOS of my very effective MG-42 fire down that second road (also some fire from 1st Platoon and some Halftracks). The AI will use smoke defensively and offensively when it feels the situation is right.

There's no good news for the Soviets on the other road though. The Panzers we moved up have just about finished off that column, with just one depleted and pinned SMG squad remaining in sight. The loss of that reinforcing column will definitely make it harder for them to push me out once I'm in the village. If we can keep the other column (now obscured by smoke) suppressed and somehow take out one of the T-34s, we may well be able to close this out.








Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 9/4/2010 12:42:48 PM >


_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 205
RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 9/4/2010 3:24:52 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 32564
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
Sorry to leave you in suspense, but I will have to pause there and continue this tomorrow. Stay tuned!

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 206
RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 9/4/2010 5:54:19 AM   
Tophat1812

 

Posts: 1530
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline
Good work! That delay in the attack indeed worked out to advantage.Love the ability shown to use smoke and happy to see the AI doing so as well.Also its nice to see you can split a tank platoon and still have the component tanks work effectively,so CM:BB players take note.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 207
RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 9/5/2010 5:04:56 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 32564
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
Success! We wiped out the ATR team over the course of the next phase. All of 3rd Platoon is now in those two buildings and we've got the Soviet SMG Squad in the next building under fire.

The dissipating smoke has allowed the T-34s to see our Panzer IIIL that's in support of the infantry. One infantry squad in 3rd Platoon had smoke grenades left and I ordered them to use them to try to keep those T-34s out of the battle until the other Panzer IIILs can move up.

Note that we now own one of the two objectives in the village.






Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Tophat1812)
Post #: 208
RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 9/5/2010 5:16:12 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 32564
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
Our lone Panzer IIIL in support of the infantry exchanges fire with two T-34s and manages to destroy one at 420 meters in one phase. This, in combination with our recent securing of the objective, puts us over the top victory-wise. We did not lose a single squad or tank, though we did suffer some casualties and damage. The Soviet forces took severe casualties, with just one T-34 left as far as armor support and about half their infantry gone.

The had more infantry coming and the T-34 we destroyed had started moving towards the objective as we sent a round through its turret. If we had been a bit less lucky in that exchange, I think a counter-attack was on the way as the smoke and terrain was obscuring more Soviet reinforcements on both roads.

But we did what we had to do and the Soviet infantry that was approaching would have run into our flanking Panzers and our three platoons of Panzergrenadiers in good fortified positions in the western half of the village.

So, Victory!

And here is where the Iron Crosses grow...








Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 209
RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 9/5/2010 5:17:54 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 32564
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
Here's a look at the village at the end of the battle with fog of war off as far as unit positions.





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 210
Page:   <<   < prev  4 5 6 [7] 8   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Panzer Command: Ostfront >> After Action Reports >> RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov Page: <<   < prev  4 5 6 [7] 8   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.125