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Attack bombers broken?

 
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Attack bombers broken? - 8/24/2010 4:27:48 PM   
EUBanana


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Reading castor troys AAR, it looks like attack bombers are broken - I'm not talking about ships, but when they are used against ground targets.

I heard rumour to this effect a while ago but dismissed it as I thought attack bombers were only a minority of Allied bombers and so having a few pure anti-ship platforms isn't such an issue.

...apparently my thought is incorrect, as attack bombers are all the USAAF gets for medium bombers from 1943 until 1944, and then only a handful of level bombers in 1944. This seems to mean that about 50% of the US bomber force - ie the mediums - are going to be affected by this if it is buggy.

I'm not quite sure what "broken" entails so am not panicking just yet, maybe castor could comment on just what is the problem with attack bombers? But if they really are broken as in bugged, losing 50% of American bombers is into gamebreaker territory.

So I really really hope this isn't the case, or if it is, that it's going to get patched. Seems important enough for a new thread on the subject anyway! Especially as I'm not quite sure what the deal with them is. I do wanna know if when I get to 1943 all my B25s are going to be worthless, though.

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RE: Attack bombers broken? - 8/24/2010 4:35:31 PM   
Walloc

 

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You might wana look at these threads

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2553508

and some of the posts around post 5-10ish in this thread.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2218609

Apparently the opinions differs. How much of that is cuz of difference in use and pilot quality is ofc a valid question, tho its apparent that michaelm has found some thing. What exactly the fix will do game play wise i naturally cant say.

Hope it helps,

Rasmus

< Message edited by Walloc -- 8/24/2010 5:41:45 PM >

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RE: Attack bombers broken? - 8/24/2010 5:00:25 PM   
EUBanana


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OK, that doesn't look so bad.

It looks like a bug is already fixed and waiting for the next hotfix/patch, so I guess that's a relief.

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RE: Attack bombers broken? - 8/24/2010 5:24:52 PM   
JohnDillworth


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quote:

OK, that doesn't look so bad.

Well it looks pretty bad to me until it gets fixed!
Like you said. Half of all Allied bombers do not work properly in the middle of the game. If Japanese bombers say, would not launch torpedoes, it would certainly change the complexion of the game. I submit that this bug is just as severe. The developers have always taken good care of us,so now that this is a know bug, I am sure it will be fixed soon.

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RE: Attack bombers broken? - 8/24/2010 5:28:40 PM   
EUBanana


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

OK, that doesn't look so bad.

Well it looks pretty bad to me until it gets fixed!
Like you said. Half of all Allied bombers do not work properly in the middle of the game. If Japanese bombers say, would not launch torpedoes, it would certainly change the complexion of the game. I submit that this bug is just as severe. The developers have always taken good care of us,so now that this is a know bug, I am sure it will be fixed soon.


Well, yeah. I agree as to the severity of 50% of Allied bombers being unusable, that would be a gamebreaker.

But it looks like the bug (or a bug) has already been identified and fixed, so not so bad, I can live in hope that it'll be patched by the time I reach 1943. </selfish>

Bad luck for Castor Troy and the others suffering in 1943 with half their bombers, though! It looks like the issue is that they always strafe even at >100' so they get chewed up by AAA?

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RE: Attack bombers broken? - 8/24/2010 6:43:03 PM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EUBanana


quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

OK, that doesn't look so bad.

Well it looks pretty bad to me until it gets fixed!
Like you said. Half of all Allied bombers do not work properly in the middle of the game. If Japanese bombers say, would not launch torpedoes, it would certainly change the complexion of the game. I submit that this bug is just as severe. The developers have always taken good care of us,so now that this is a know bug, I am sure it will be fixed soon.


Well, yeah. I agree as to the severity of 50% of Allied bombers being unusable, that would be a gamebreaker.

But it looks like the bug (or a bug) has already been identified and fixed, so not so bad, I can live in hope that it'll be patched by the time I reach 1943. </selfish>

Bad luck for Castor Troy and the others suffering in 1943 with half their bombers, though! It looks like the issue is that they always strafe even at >100' so they get chewed up by AAA?



thatīs not the bug though afaik because they are supposed to ALWAYS attack at 100ft and therefore strafe. Seeing them attacking at 10000ft and dropping bombs from 10000ft while at the same time strafing at 100ft seems to be the bug.

I still havenīt received an answer about which SKILL those damned bombers use when attacking with their bombs? Strafe? Lowgnd, Lownav? When you could only hope and assume they would use strafe for strafing and lownav, lowgnd the same time when dropping their bombs. This doesnīt seem to be the case with my bombers though, because they never ever hit something despite having excellent BOMBING skill. No strafe skill because I have yet to find the magic button to train strafe. Nothing, no matter which attack at which alt has so far seen my bomber or fighter pilots increase strafe (only general training but thatīs a joke).

So which skill is used and how can you come up with a design that has attack bombers attacking with their MGs to supress flak and you canīt train that skill other than learning by doing? And how well does that "supressing flak" work? It doesnīt in my PBEM because 32 B-25D1 attacking a rubbish SNLF with a couple of 13mm MGs usually see more than halve a dozen bombers damaged while not doing any damage. Now imagine attacking a real target and not a damned useless SNLF with a handful of MGs.

I stand by what I said, there is an identified bug that sure will be fixed, but the design itself sure got flaws too. And that will result in two years of discussion (more of the discussions as soon as the majority of PBEMs reaches mid/late 43) until something will changed (if it ever will). Therefore Iīm going to do what I mentioned in my AAR already, change all attack bombers to medium bombers. Medium bombers work, attack bombers suck. This wonīt help me in my ongoing PBEM but that canīt be seen as anything else than an enhanced beta test anyway...

Anyway, attack bombers seem not to have been really tested pre release because the one bug I posted in the tech forum is something that really jumps out as soon as you start using the bombers. So Iīve got not that much hope that all this "supress flak" was much tested nor the effect of flak on the bombers and the hit rate of the bombers. Again, not even strafe can be trained (or Iīm just too stupid to do it) and thatīs whatīs used for these bombers (exclusively - hope not - or together with lownav/lowgnd).

< Message edited by castor troy -- 8/24/2010 6:46:53 PM >


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RE: Attack bombers broken? - 8/24/2010 7:31:34 PM   
John Lansford

 

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I'm seeing my attack bombers strafe no matter what altitude they start at.  I'm assuming they drop down to 100' and go in with guns blazing, but they're also dropping bombs (just not very accurately, it seems, since they inflict few casualties attacking ground targets).

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RE: Attack bombers broken? - 8/24/2010 8:01:09 PM   
crsutton


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As a short turn fix, I suggest that you Allied players turn off the upgrade button on your B25C factory before 1943 comes around. I did so and am able to at least have 20 B25C in production until it is fixed.

Frankly, I think Allied mediums and fighter bombers are fairly useless in game anyway. They just always get slaughtered. The real problem is that CAP is usually always flying from a higher altitude and low flying fighter bombers (and any escort which will be flying low as well) will just get shot to bits. It is really not worth the expendure. I have had beaufighters for about 8 months now and they have done just about diddly squat. Anti shipping attacks have not produced much either at low levels or at 100 feet. This is a major problem for the Allied players. This also holds true for Japanese bombers and escort as they are just as easily shot up by high CAP.

As far as attack bombers. What few I have have yet to drop a single bomb in any attack. One or two might straff but the results are anemic. They are pretty useless. The only use I can see for them is in training sqadrons until they are worked on.  I generally have straffing skills and low bombing skills at least in the 50s or better but they still don't do anything. I put fighter pilots with low bombing and straffing skills in them but that does not make much difference.

Right now my only plan is to fill up any medium bomber squadrons I can with heavies.

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RE: Attack bombers broken? - 8/24/2010 8:04:40 PM   
Sardaukar


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I have had great success with Beaufighters. They and Marauders are quite resilient too, unlike B-25s, who seem to take more casualties.

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RE: Attack bombers broken? - 8/24/2010 8:48:52 PM   
EUBanana


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I quite like the mediums, their better service ratings mean that in areas where you have air superiority or something close to it you can bomb around the clock. And they are acceptable in an air-to-ship role as well.

Hence why I will be sad if I have to go through a year without any medium bombers at all.

Sounds like fixing the B25 factory is something at least.

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RE: Attack bombers broken? - 8/24/2010 8:50:40 PM   
EUBanana


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...and I'd expect attack bombers to perform much better anyway, no? Skip bombing galore.

As mentioned, this is pretty much akin to the Japanese losing torpedoes from their Betties. Pretty serious.

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RE: Attack bombers broken? - 8/24/2010 9:02:20 PM   
ecwgcx


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What bugs me is that I can get 9-30 casualties from half a dozen Ventura's and old B-26's bombing a well fortified LCU from 6k feet EVERYTIME, but raids of 36+ B-25D1's CAN NOT HIT a runway with a single bomb from 100ft. Nor do they seem to be able to hit any a/c on the ground when they strafe. And this against well recon'd targets. It becomes very difficult to build up highly experienced pilots because every rifle in the hex can take pot shots at them. I sure would like to see an option for having attack a/c only attack at 100ft or to act like regular medium bombers. Right now, in my game, I need to close airfields more that sink Maru's...and B-25D1's and-G's don't cut it.

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RE: Attack bombers broken? - 8/24/2010 9:14:23 PM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ecwgcx

What bugs me is that I can get 9-30 casualties from half a dozen Ventura's and old B-26's bombing a well fortified LCU from 6k feet EVERYTIME, but raids of 36+ B-25D1's CAN NOT HIT a runway with a single bomb from 100ft. Nor do they seem to be able to hit any a/c on the ground when they strafe. And this against well recon'd targets. It becomes very difficult to build up highly experienced pilots because every rifle in the hex can take pot shots at them. I sure would like to see an option for having attack a/c only attack at 100ft or to act like regular medium bombers. Right now, in my game, I need to close airfields more that sink Maru's...and B-25D1's and-G's don't cut it.


There's a bug just recently discovered and a fix is pending.

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RE: Attack bombers broken? - 8/24/2010 9:24:14 PM   
Lecivius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs
There's a bug just recently discovered and a fix is pending.


Nuff said. I willl go back to getting hammered by Little Yellow Men With Coke Bottle Glasses

I never said it ( so many others already have) but I would like to say Awesome to the developement team. I don't play as much as others, but even from my limited experience you guys rock

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RE: Attack bombers broken? - 8/24/2010 9:45:41 PM   
ecwgcx


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I was under the impression that the bug that was identified only concerned bombing and strafing at different heights in the same turn. My concern is the total lack of accuracy at any height. If the fix means that a B-25D at 100ft now hits its target (ship, airfield, port, LCU, whatever) with bombs then HUZZAH!
These planes, historically, just chewed up targets. All those .50's and parafrags were devastating. I just don't see it in my game.

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RE: Attack bombers broken? - 8/25/2010 12:03:21 AM   
witpqs


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I might have misunderstood, but I thought the bug has the effect that attack bombers go directly to strafing and did not bomb.

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RE: Attack bombers broken? - 8/25/2010 12:57:59 AM   
mike scholl 1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ecwgcx
These planes, historically, just chewed up targets. All those .50's and parafrags were devastating. I just don't see it in my game.



ABSOLUTELY CORRECT! The Allies didn't build several thousand specially modified "gunships" to get the kind of pitiful results received in the game. If this nonsense was affecting the Japanese. it would have been fixed a year ago. Since it only affects the Allies, we'll be lucky if it's ever made right.

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RE: Attack bombers broken? - 8/25/2010 1:13:09 AM   
vonTirpitz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


quote:

ORIGINAL: ecwgcx
These planes, historically, just chewed up targets. All those .50's and parafrags were devastating. I just don't see it in my game.



ABSOLUTELY CORRECT! The Allies didn't build several thousand specially modified "gunships" to get the kind of pitiful results received in the game. If this nonsense was affecting the Japanese. it would have been fixed a year ago. Since it only affects the Allies, we'll be lucky if it's ever made right.

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RE: Attack bombers broken? - 8/25/2010 4:06:51 AM   
Gräfin Zeppelin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


quote:

ORIGINAL: ecwgcx
These planes, historically, just chewed up targets. All those .50's and parafrags were devastating. I just don't see it in my game.



ABSOLUTELY CORRECT! The Allies didn't build several thousand specially modified "gunships" to get the kind of pitiful results received in the game. If this nonsense was affecting the Japanese. it would have been fixed a year ago. Since it only affects the Allies, we'll be lucky if it's ever made right.

Poor allies, the stepchild of every ww2 game.

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RE: Attack bombers broken? - 8/25/2010 7:33:40 AM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

I have had great success with Beaufighters. They and Marauders are quite resilient too, unlike B-25s, who seem to take more casualties.



but Beaufighters are fighter bombers and Marauders are level bombers. None of them are attack bombers.

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RE: Attack bombers broken? - 8/25/2010 7:37:39 AM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ecwgcx

What bugs me is that I can get 9-30 casualties from half a dozen Ventura's and old B-26's bombing a well fortified LCU from 6k feet EVERYTIME, but raids of 36+ B-25D1's CAN NOT HIT a runway with a single bomb from 100ft. Nor do they seem to be able to hit any a/c on the ground when they strafe. And this against well recon'd targets. It becomes very difficult to build up highly experienced pilots because every rifle in the hex can take pot shots at them. I sure would like to see an option for having attack a/c only attack at 100ft or to act like regular medium bombers. Right now, in my game, I need to close airfields more that sink Maru's...and B-25D1's and-G's don't cut it.



thatīs what Iīm saying all the time and thatīs why I think that itīs not just a bug that causes attack bombers dropping bombs from the alt you set them instead of always dropping from 100ft. but also a design flaw and not enough or no testing at all. Attack bombers are a pain in the ass, not for the one on the receiving end, but for the one who tries to employ them. With Allied players having attack bombers only from mid 43 on, pretty much a game breaker... hurrey, three cheers for this new "feature".

And please lets not forget the design "decision" (or oversight) that you canīt train strafe with your bombers. Thinking about such a new feature like attack bombers and their skills used, you sure would think that they could also think about: "hey, these bombers need strafe and lownav/lowgnd skill so if you set them to train lownav for example, they of course also have to train strafe". Obviously that has not been well thought out, nor tested.

IMO, the identified bug is the least problem because that just changes the attack alt. But thatīs something I can do myselve, just set your bombers to that friging 100ft and they will attack at 100ft. Strafe and lowgnd for example and then you find out that this "bomber strafing to supress flak" is just a non working joke and hit rate with MGs (on flak, ground troops, aircraft, ships) is a joke too. And the non existing hits with bombs from 100ft against an airfield? Lol, use totally untrained B-25D1 on airfield attack and with 50 bombers you get how many hits? 1? 2? What a joke! Use totally untrained B-25C on airfield attack at 10000ft and with 50 bombers you get what? Ten times as many hits? 20 Times the hits? THATīs what really is broken.

Ongoing PBEMs have a big aspect ruined due to this coming up during the game. Well, only spent two or three hours real life to reach mid 43 in the game... Next PBEM wonīt have any attack bombers at all. Fighter bombers werenīt well working in WITP, fighter bombers are still there in AE and it seems all they did was to more or less use the fighter bomber routine on 100ft for attack bombers. Who really cared about fighter bombers in WITP, you had enough medium bombers. Who really attacked at 100ft in WITP? Well, now we have a hardcoded 100ft only attack for all the USAAF medium bombers from mid 43 on. Forget about the USAAF, they are stuck with heavies, something the Japanese player sure likes. Forget about no USAAF 4Es below 10000ft on nav attack too or what?

< Message edited by castor troy -- 8/25/2010 7:58:06 AM >


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RE: Attack bombers broken? - 8/25/2010 7:48:38 AM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ecwgcx

I was under the impression that the bug that was identified only concerned bombing and strafing at different heights in the same turn. My concern is the total lack of accuracy at any height. If the fix means that a B-25D at 100ft now hits its target (ship, airfield, port, LCU, whatever) with bombs then HUZZAH!
These planes, historically, just chewed up targets. All those .50's and parafrags were devastating. I just don't see it in my game.



exactly!

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RE: Attack bombers broken? - 8/25/2010 9:46:22 AM   
EUBanana


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Can you just use them as level bombers? Set them to 8000'?

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RE: Attack bombers broken? - 8/25/2010 10:23:29 AM   
Sredni

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

And please lets not forget the design "decision" (or oversight) that you canīt train strafe with your bombers.


Ug... I've just starting playing around with attack bombers. Does this mean I need to train fighter pilots on strafe, and then once that's trained move the pilots over to a bomber group and train low nav (or low ground)?

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RE: Attack bombers broken? - 8/25/2010 10:28:56 AM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

Can you just use them as level bombers? Set them to 8000'?



I guess so, at least thatīs what mine are doing (until the bug is fixesd). BUT, I have no clue if they hit something (mine donīt - but they were trained to LOWnav) and they strafe at the same time (and also take the damage from attacking at 100ft). My last PBEM turn saw 6 B-25D1 do these silly "strafing to supress flak" runs on two of the crappy IJN DDs with the result of 50% of the bombers downed. No hits scored, no MG hits, no bomb hits. Just one instance of course.

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RE: Attack bombers broken? - 8/25/2010 10:47:52 AM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sredni


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

And please lets not forget the design "decision" (or oversight) that you canīt train strafe with your bombers.


Ug... I've just starting playing around with attack bombers. Does this mean I need to train fighter pilots on strafe, and then once that's trained move the pilots over to a bomber group and train low nav (or low ground)?



seems so. While it takes three months to have other bomber crews being combat ready (means 70 skill of your preferred) skill, it takes 9 months for an attack bomber crew. Why? Let me give an example: you want to train your crew in lownav attack, you put them into level bombers, set them on 5000ft training lownav and three months later youīve got 70 skilled pilots that work very well (perhaps too well but thatīs another story). Now you can use these crews in a B-25C squadron, primary mission is low level naval attack. But you could also use this squadron on airfield attack, even if you havenīt trained them on grdbmb, they will do ok and get some hits from 10000ft. Over time with more grd attacks, they will do better and better. 3 months of training and youīve got a dedicated anti shipping squadron that can also be used against grd targets.

Now take an attack bomber crew. You put it into an attack bomber, want to use them primarily as anti shipping squadron. Sounds good, put them on 5000ft navattack training and lownav skill will have increased to 70 after three months. So what? You now got lownav skill 70 but for an attack bomber you seem to also need strafe skill 70. Heck, you will find out that you arenīt able to train that, so take out the pilots and rotate them into a fighter squadron. Two weeks for pilot rotation later, you now set your ex-bomber pilots to train strafe for three months. After 6.5 months you now got your pilots ready to man attack bombers and fly lownav attacks (3.5 months later than a B-25C pilot that works better anyway). Now you want to attack a ground target with this dedicated anti shipping squadron. Fine, you set them to airfield attack and will find out that you havenīt hit anything with those bombers. Why? Because you now also need lowgnd skill to hit something (while untrained grdbmb medium bombers achieve hits from 10000ft on an airfield). What are you gonna do now? Set your squadron another three months to training lowgrd because if you want to bomb an airfield, they will do so from 100ft, therefore lowgd. I have yet to see the 50 questions answered which skill is used for attack bombers (wonder if they know it), so I can only assume it would be strafe, lownav and lowgrd.

After 9.5 months of training (6.5 months longer than you need to have a perfectly working level bomber pilot - Allied OR Japanese) you then go ahead and use this attack bomber squadron again against a ground target because you now think they would be as effective as in real life and set them to attack a moderately defended airfield. Then your oh so great working B-25D1 come in at 100ft after having done 9.5 months of training and 50% of them are shot down by light flak. Mhm... I would be glad to have NO attack bombers at all, just give me a Helen or Sally for every attack bomber Iīm going to get, they are far more effective and better in game than these not really well thought out attack bombers.

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RE: Attack bombers broken? - 8/25/2010 7:20:22 PM   
mike scholl 1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin


quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1
ABSOLUTELY CORRECT! The Allies didn't build several thousand specially modified "gunships" to get the kind of pitiful results received in the game. If this nonsense was affecting the Japanese. it would have been fixed a year ago. Since it only affects the Allies, we'll be lucky if it's ever made right.


Poor allies, the stepchild of every ww2 game.



When your comment gets denigrated by such Axis FanBoys as "Zeppelin" and "von Tirpitz" you can be absolutely certain that you're on the right track...

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RE: Attack bombers broken? - 8/25/2010 7:57:48 PM   
USS America


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Since it only affects the Allies, it was not completely discovered and identified when everyone was playing '41 and '42 PBEM games. 

I find it ridiculous that you insist on your "JFB bias" rants.  Give the developers a break and a chance to actually fix things as they are discovered, documented, reproduced and corrected.  

Now, I guess I have (in your words) "denigrated" your comment.  Does that make me an Axis fanboy?  My userid is USS America.  Does that make me an Allied fanboy?  The truth is, you don't have a clue and should not presume to post any such nonsense.  Don't forget to pull you foot out of your mouth before you reply.  It's bad manners to talk with your mouth full. 

Edit: typo

< Message edited by USS America -- 8/25/2010 7:58:31 PM >


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RE: Attack bombers broken? - 8/25/2010 8:06:43 PM   
Puhis

 

Posts: 1698
Joined: 11/30/2008
From: Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

When your comment gets denigrated by such Axis FanBoys as "Zeppelin" and "von Tirpitz" you can be absolutely certain that you're on the right track...



I think lot of people will "denigrate" your comments. Or maybe they just ignore them.

I'm glad there's the green block button...

(in reply to mike scholl 1)
Post #: 29
RE: Attack bombers broken? - 8/25/2010 9:14:19 PM   
ecwgcx


Posts: 475
Joined: 9/14/2004
Status: offline
Look, I don't care if you are a AFB or a JFB or whatever. This is important. It's like the bruhaha about land arty or Nuke Bombardments. Some of us are seeing something that took awhile to show up. We are asking the devs to take another peek at it because we feel Attack Bombers are not working as they should. If changes can be made, super. If not, then my next game will get messaged in the editor and I'll be producing B-25C's until 1945. Nothing to get our knickers in a bunch about. Does it take away from my game? Yup. Is it enough to make me stop playing? Not really. I'll come up with a work around, like wave hoppin' B-29's. What I love so much about this game is the flavor and 99% of it tastes great. Peace lovin' rant over.

(in reply to Puhis)
Post #: 30
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