Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Anti Cheat in 3.4 beta

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Norm Koger's The Operational Art Of War III >> Anti Cheat in 3.4 beta Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Anti Cheat in 3.4 beta - 8/21/2010 6:54:56 AM   
alexzhz


Posts: 75
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: China
Status: offline
My friends and I have done some tests to see whether the anti cheat system really works in the new patch. We appreciate the new improvement in cheat prevention such as Random Seed, however we know it's not omnipotence because if we slightly change the attack plan it will bring a totally different result, that means someone can still try his combat result to look for a better one, so we think cheat warning is the most important thing for cheat prevention.

We have tested cheat message over and over again. On one hand, many times we received the message "Your Opponet may have reloaded blah blah times" when our opponet testers didn't cheat at all, on the other hand, after we reloaded the game to sent, there's no anti-cheat messages on opponets' screen. One thing I have to mention is that we shut down the game and reload it in 2 ways, one is to close TOAW proccess directly and the other one is to end turns without hit YES button. Both of them lead to uncertain results, cheat message with right reloaded times, cheat message with wrong reloaded times, and no cheat message at all.

So, do anybody have the same situation?

< Message edited by Spider -- 8/21/2010 6:55:31 AM >


_____________________________

Every shadow no matter how deep is threatened by morning light.
Post #: 1
RE: Anti Cheat in 3.4 beta - 8/24/2010 3:52:38 AM   
ralphtricky


Posts: 6644
Joined: 7/27/2003
From: Colorado Springs
Status: offline
Spider,
I haven't been able to reproduce any problems. Any chance you could open up the opart 3.ini file and set the UberDude=Y flag? That will make several dialog boxes in PBEM appear that explain what it thinks is going on. I suspect that one of those dialogs may show something strange, like a new turn when it isn't, or something. They shoudl be obvious, but please let me know if you don't understand something.

Ralph


_____________________________

Ralph Trickey
TOAW IV Programmer
Blog: http://operationalwarfare.com
---
My comments are my own, and do not represent the views of any other person or entity. Nothing that I say should be construed in any way as a promise of anything.

(in reply to alexzhz)
Post #: 2
RE: Anti Cheat in 3.4 beta - 8/24/2010 4:35:49 PM   
alexzhz


Posts: 75
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: China
Status: offline
Thanks Ralph. We've set the UberDude=Y, and retested the cheat-prevention system, but nothing helpful.

We chose Kasserine 43 for our test since this scenario can alway generate the wrong anti-cheat messages. My PC system is Windows 7 while my friend's is Windows XP.

Turn 1
I opened Kasserine 43 and played as German. I moved some of my units randomly then send the pbl file to my frend.
He loaded the file normally and moved some of his units randomly, after this he end his turn and send the pbl file.
So turn 1 is normal, nothing beyond.

Turn 2
I made an attack, then I pretend to be not satisfied with the result so I end my turn immediately without hit SAVE button, for about 3-4 times of hitting CANCEL I successfully closed the game. So I restart my turn with a totally different tactic, that is to say I've reload it 1 times.
He loaded the file which I sent him, I assumed there must be a "Your Opponet may have reloaded 1 times" on his screen, however, nothing happened at all. Then he did the same thing as I did, reloaded and replayed the game, if there was something different, it must be the way how he quit the game after his first load, yes, he shut down the proccess immediately.

Turn 3
When I load the pbl file, I was completely stunned because it said "Your Opponet may have reloaded 3 times". Of course the cheat-prevention system has detected the last cheating action, but why 3 times? It didn't make sense, the most important is that it may hurt the trust between 2 players if they are misleaded by these wrong imformations, especially when they dont't cheat but was said to have cheat 1 or 2 times, at that time, suspicion will take the place of trust.

< Message edited by Spider -- 8/24/2010 4:39:16 PM >


_____________________________

Every shadow no matter how deep is threatened by morning light.

(in reply to alexzhz)
Post #: 3
RE: Anti Cheat in 3.4 beta - 8/24/2010 6:03:02 PM   
pionier

 

Posts: 116
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
Well I did not get any use of this message at all. If you don't trust simple no play against someone. So as for me who I'm playing greater scenarios i prefer look at the End of turn... it always makes at least 1 reload message... 1 additional when you are  player one and save after calculation. As for me I like sometimes to think about the opeing of a turn somewhile. For example - in the train i use my laptop in this period i wonÄt start the turn but game forces me to quit again it might give another reload message and so on.
Same problem as player turn, you game doesnot calculate anything but everytime you just open it it might create an reload message for nothing.

result for me - don't give a dam about reload messages. As far as I know of my opponments turns I usally get between 1 and 3 times an reload message.

As for me I even got 2 computers... so that are two chances for zero reloads. Or you might tricks it out by simply open a complete new scenario this should be end the calculation or do anything wrong to the reload counter. What is when you are playing one scenario with two opponments at the same time?

Nice to now, play with whom you trust - there is no 100% anti cheat check as long all those things might appear. A solution to all of this would be an optional online server for toaw where the scenarios and pbl. could be saved and downlaoded and uploaded by the game gurantee that there is no 'cheating' But then you can't play while on the train or somewhere else...



(in reply to alexzhz)
Post #: 4
RE: Anti Cheat in 3.4 beta - 8/24/2010 9:29:06 PM   
Panama


Posts: 1362
Joined: 10/30/2009
Status: offline
I agree with pionier. I've gotten reload messages and I don't really care. I just say, ah, a reload message and go about playing the turn. I don't know if I've even bothered letting anyone know I got it.

_____________________________


(in reply to pionier)
Post #: 5
RE: Anti Cheat in 3.4 beta - 8/24/2010 11:59:44 PM   
Sker


Posts: 41
Joined: 8/15/2007
From: Milano, Italy
Status: offline
I agree with pioner and panama. I don't even bother about the reload messages and I usally agree with my opponents to ignore them. I use to trust in my opponent loyalty since there is no prize for the winner and if you cheat you screw up your own fun.
Even I found one of the few TOAW players who like to cheat, well it's just a game it's not worth to worry that much about: I'll simply lose the game (or maybe not in TOAW you may be able to beat a weak cheating player) and if not have fun I'll simply don't play again against it.
That's all.

Anyway if this can be done easily it's better to give a check at that feature, but to me it's not a priority

(in reply to Panama)
Post #: 6
RE: Anti Cheat in 3.4 beta - 8/26/2010 1:42:09 PM   
alexzhz


Posts: 75
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: China
Status: offline
I agree with all of you. Based on what has been discussed so far , it follows that some effective solutions should be found to deal with the problem. On the one hand, we should neglect the cheat messages as far as we can and play fairly; on the other hand, if cheat-prevention can be fixed it will be a good news to all PBEM players.

_____________________________

Every shadow no matter how deep is threatened by morning light.

(in reply to Sker)
Post #: 7
RE: Anti Cheat in 3.4 beta - 8/26/2010 4:32:34 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 11199
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline
Trying to monitor cheating via a message saved in the file is futile if the cheater is determined enough. We knew this from the start, but made an effort at it anyway. I don't think any further precious effort should be sunk into that method.

For full security we would have to exchange files every combat phase. I don't know if anyone would want to do that. You can sort of do that now, via employing a referee (who would be the only one allowed to push the "execute" button).

(in reply to alexzhz)
Post #: 8
RE: Anti Cheat in 3.4 beta - 8/27/2010 4:53:36 AM   
ralphtricky


Posts: 6644
Joined: 7/27/2003
From: Colorado Springs
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Trying to monitor cheating via a message saved in the file is futile if the cheater is determined enough. We knew this from the start, but made an effort at it anyway. I don't think any further precious effort should be sunk into that method.

For full security we would have to exchange files every combat phase. I don't know if anyone would want to do that. You can sort of do that now, via employing a referee (who would be the only one allowed to push the "execute" button).

Even that wouldn't work. The two ways I know of that are 100% are 1) Put everything on the server and a server runs the turn. or 2) require that you be online 100% of the time while playing.

Another option I may look inot for the next version would be something that I think would work...

Post to Twitter or Facebook on every load and save of a turn. That's probably about as secure (and cheap) a solution as is possible, but adding that to this version would be difficult.

The idea is that when you start a PBEM game, you also enter your Twitter or facebook credentials (email might be possible but would be less secure). It would make a post everytime that you opened a game or saved the game along with details like which round, what the total MP was that was left, etc.

If you saw loads without saves, that's a sign that someone might be cheating.

Even those aren't 100% since both services allow the post to be withdrawn, but unless I wrote a custom service and hosted it somewhere, they're probably the best alternative.

_____________________________

Ralph Trickey
TOAW IV Programmer
Blog: http://operationalwarfare.com
---
My comments are my own, and do not represent the views of any other person or entity. Nothing that I say should be construed in any way as a promise of anything.

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 9
RE: Anti Cheat in 3.4 beta - 8/27/2010 4:58:38 AM   
ralphtricky


Posts: 6644
Joined: 7/27/2003
From: Colorado Springs
Status: offline
Spider,
Thanks for looking into it.

I'll take a look at one scenario you posed. You shouldn't be able to quit without saving, so I'll see if I can plug that loophole.

You need to rotate scenarios while testing. I save about the past 20 or so loads and saves(I don't remember the exact number) so that's probably why you're seeing the reloaded xx times.I believe I store the passwords (although I'm not 100% on that), so if you are both playing the same games with the same passwords, that's why it thinks it's a reload of the same game. I'll look at this a bit more for 3.5.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Spider

Thanks Ralph. We've set the UberDude=Y, and retested the cheat-prevention system, but nothing helpful.

We chose Kasserine 43 for our test since this scenario can alway generate the wrong anti-cheat messages. My PC system is Windows 7 while my friend's is Windows XP.

Turn 1
I opened Kasserine 43 and played as German. I moved some of my units randomly then send the pbl file to my frend.
He loaded the file normally and moved some of his units randomly, after this he end his turn and send the pbl file.
So turn 1 is normal, nothing beyond.

Turn 2
I made an attack, then I pretend to be not satisfied with the result so I end my turn immediately without hit SAVE button, for about 3-4 times of hitting CANCEL I successfully closed the game. So I restart my turn with a totally different tactic, that is to say I've reload it 1 times.
He loaded the file which I sent him, I assumed there must be a "Your Opponet may have reloaded 1 times" on his screen, however, nothing happened at all. Then he did the same thing as I did, reloaded and replayed the game, if there was something different, it must be the way how he quit the game after his first load, yes, he shut down the proccess immediately.

Turn 3
When I load the pbl file, I was completely stunned because it said "Your Opponet may have reloaded 3 times". Of course the cheat-prevention system has detected the last cheating action, but why 3 times? It didn't make sense, the most important is that it may hurt the trust between 2 players if they are misleaded by these wrong imformations, especially when they dont't cheat but was said to have cheat 1 or 2 times, at that time, suspicion will take the place of trust.



_____________________________

Ralph Trickey
TOAW IV Programmer
Blog: http://operationalwarfare.com
---
My comments are my own, and do not represent the views of any other person or entity. Nothing that I say should be construed in any way as a promise of anything.

(in reply to alexzhz)
Post #: 10
RE: Anti Cheat in 3.4 beta - 8/27/2010 3:56:34 PM   
Panama


Posts: 1362
Joined: 10/30/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ralphtrick


Post to Twitter or Facebook on every load and save of a turn. That's probably about as secure (and cheap) a solution as is possible, but adding that to this version would be difficult.



I would rather throw away my computer than have anything to do with either of those.

If it were a pbem requirement that would be the end of my pbem.

_____________________________


(in reply to ralphtricky)
Post #: 11
RE: Anti Cheat in 3.4 beta - 8/27/2010 4:05:03 PM   
ralphtricky


Posts: 6644
Joined: 7/27/2003
From: Colorado Springs
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Panama


quote:

ORIGINAL: ralphtrick


Post to Twitter or Facebook on every load and save of a turn. That's probably about as secure (and cheap) a solution as is possible, but adding that to this version would be difficult.



I would rather throw away my computer than have anything to do with either of those.

If it were a pbem requirement that would be the end of my pbem.

Fine, for you, I'll add a Fax option.




_____________________________

Ralph Trickey
TOAW IV Programmer
Blog: http://operationalwarfare.com
---
My comments are my own, and do not represent the views of any other person or entity. Nothing that I say should be construed in any way as a promise of anything.

(in reply to Panama)
Post #: 12
RE: Anti Cheat in 3.4 beta - 8/27/2010 4:16:18 PM   
pionier

 

Posts: 116
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
Well I would prefer (bevor you start things like this) the possibility to look at my opponments combat results news. If you could ad this it would good. 

(in reply to ralphtricky)
Post #: 13
RE: Anti Cheat in 3.4 beta - 8/27/2010 4:20:33 PM   
ralphtricky


Posts: 6644
Joined: 7/27/2003
From: Colorado Springs
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pionier

Well I would prefer (bevor you start things like this) the possibility to look at my opponments combat results news. If you could ad this it would good. 

I'm pretty sure that there is an option to save that to disk at the end of each turn, so you could include that with the save game file.


_____________________________

Ralph Trickey
TOAW IV Programmer
Blog: http://operationalwarfare.com
---
My comments are my own, and do not represent the views of any other person or entity. Nothing that I say should be construed in any way as a promise of anything.

(in reply to pionier)
Post #: 14
RE: Anti Cheat in 3.4 beta - 8/27/2010 6:45:32 PM   
pionier

 

Posts: 116
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
Well, it would be quite cool if we would have an program which would load the toaw.log showing the map and the places where the fighting took place.
Doubleklick could open all the Action reports in normal TOAW manner. What do you think? ;-)

(in reply to ralphtricky)
Post #: 15
RE: Anti Cheat in 3.4 beta - 8/27/2010 7:03:35 PM   
ralphtricky


Posts: 6644
Joined: 7/27/2003
From: Colorado Springs
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pionier
Well, it would be quite cool if we would have an program which would load the toaw.log showing the map and the places where the fighting took place.
Doubleklick could open all the Action reports in normal TOAW manner. What do you think? ;-)

The data is all there, there's a program that will parse the scenario files and do some work with them, and I believe that the Action reports are text (possibly even CSV, I think) so it's just a matter of someone putting everything together. The map file format is a bit obtuse, but should be possible to figure out, I'll even help!

I really want to turn around 3.5 alot faster than 3.4, so I don't want to be too distracted.

Ralph


_____________________________

Ralph Trickey
TOAW IV Programmer
Blog: http://operationalwarfare.com
---
My comments are my own, and do not represent the views of any other person or entity. Nothing that I say should be construed in any way as a promise of anything.

(in reply to pionier)
Post #: 16
RE: Anti Cheat in 3.4 beta - 8/27/2010 8:43:35 PM   
Panama


Posts: 1362
Joined: 10/30/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ralphtrick

I really want to turn around 3.5 alot faster than 3.4, so I don't want to be too distracted.

Ralph



*Panama waves a pizza and some beers in front of Ralph*

_____________________________


(in reply to ralphtricky)
Post #: 17
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Norm Koger's The Operational Art Of War III >> Anti Cheat in 3.4 beta Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.236