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Attack bombers and other routines seem to have some issues

 
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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Tech Support >> Attack bombers and other routines seem to have some issues Page: [1]
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Attack bombers and other routines seem to have some issues - 8/20/2010 2:31:44 PM   
castor troy


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Hi

Could you please have a serious look at attack bombers and the routines used by them. I´ve mentioned it several times on the main forum already, attack bombers seem to have some serious issues. Attached is a save that shows attack bombers BOMBING from 10,000ft and STRAFING. Now AFAIK attack bombers are supposed to attack at 100ft, strafe at that height and also bomb at that height. AFAIK they should use (and therefore also increase) STRAFE and LOWNAV skill. They do increase strafe skill, but instead of lownav, they seem to increase NAVBMB skill.

Next issue, seems like the skill routine for attack bombers was born after watching the movie that should not be named, because it seems the only way to have attack bombers with strafing skill is to put FIGHTER pilots into these bomber types because in my PBEM, it´s impossible to train any bomber pilot in strafing.

Another issue, if you put your bombers (any) on primary NAVAL attack and secondary AIRFIELD attack (or any other ground attack) and these bombers fly their ground attack mission in the afternoon then they often increase NAVAL skill and not ground bomb, which they should from flying an airfield attack.

There seem to bes some serious issues within the attack bomber and skill increase routines. Especially the issues with attack bombers should be looked after asap as these are near game breaking because every Allied player will be stuck with non or perhaps only semi working attack bombers and won´t receive any other medium level bombers for the USAAF, which leaves the USAAF with heavy bombers only. Not only is this a problem, it will also lead to PBEM issues with the Japanese player surely not being happy about EVERY USAAF squadron being upgraded to heavy bombers.

Attack bombers seem not to work in my PBEM, not even the graphic during the replay seems to work.

thanks for having a look at it.

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Bathurst Island at 77,123

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 40 minutes


Allied aircraft
Beaufort VIII x 4
B-25D1 Mitchell x 4
F4U-1 Corsair x 10


Allied aircraft losses
Beaufort VIII: 1 damaged

Japanese Ships
DD Nagatsuki
DD Kisaragi



Aircraft Attacking:
4 x Beaufort VIII launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo
4 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing from 10000 feet
Naval Attack: 6 x 500 lb SAP Bomb





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by castor troy -- 8/20/2010 2:35:01 PM >


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RE: Attack bombers and other routines seem to have some... - 8/20/2010 2:33:21 PM   
castor troy


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From: Austria
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pws was renamed to txt

Attachment (1)

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RE: Attack bombers and other routines seem to have some... - 8/21/2010 4:08:47 AM   
michaelm


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I have looked closely at the code and there seems to be a parenthesis in the wrong place.
   ... disrupt<die(10)))) || isAttackBomber)
One of those 3 should be at the send of the statement. This is causing the attacker bomber to start strafing first, rather than bomb and then strafe if it can.



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Michael

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RE: Attack bombers and other routines seem to have some... - 8/21/2010 4:21:43 AM   
witpqs

 

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From: Argleton
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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

I have looked closely at the code and there seems to be a parenthesis in the wrong place.
   ... disrupt<die(10)))) || isAttackBomber)
One of those 3 should be at the send of the statement. This is causing the attacker bomber to start strafing first, rather than bomb and then strafe if it can.


Wow - great catch! Many of us are in games where USAAF Attack Bombers are now most our medium bomber squadrons.

(in reply to michaelm)
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RE: Attack bombers and other routines seem to have some... - 8/21/2010 9:14:49 AM   
Walloc

 

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So Michael,

Who do we need to sacrifice to get a hotfix as the next patch, as i understand it, is far away?


Kind regards,

Rasmus


< Message edited by Walloc -- 8/21/2010 9:15:19 AM >

(in reply to witpqs)
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RE: Attack bombers and other routines seem to have some... - 8/21/2010 9:58:52 AM   
castor troy


Posts: 12261
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

I have looked closely at the code and there seems to be a parenthesis in the wrong place.
   ... disrupt<die(10)))) || isAttackBomber)
One of those 3 should be at the send of the statement. This is causing the attacker bomber to start strafing first, rather than bomb and then strafe if it can.





Many thanks for having a look michaelm, great support as always.

Hope you don´t mind another question. Which skill is used for the bombing? I´ve hoped for lownav and lowgrd while strafing is only used for the strafing but I´m not sure about that at all when I look at the non existing hit rates of these bombers. In fact they´re just flying targets for any enemy flak it seems and their performance is totally reversed compared to real life. As it stands now, I would give 5 B-25D1 for a single B-25C that I could use for bomb runs. And it still leaves us with the problem that you can´t train strafe it seems, first I´ve thought I would have to use fighter pilots, just to find out that these don´t train strafe in my games either. No matter if fighter or bomber pilot, no matter which skill at 100ft I try to train, strafe is never increased. So if they then use strafe as skill also for their bombing during their attacks then these bombers are totally screwed I fear.

Totally untrained B-25C seem to achieve 10-20 times more hits from 10000ft during an airfield attack than totally untrained B-25D1 do from 100ft. This seems a bit strange to me. I can imagine bombs landing a couple of miles away from a target if dropped from 10000ft but if they are dropped directly over the target at 100ft then there´s not that a high chance to miss it all the time, but that seems to be the case with attack bombers.

< Message edited by castor troy -- 8/21/2010 10:03:03 AM >


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RE: Attack bombers and other routines seem to have some... - 8/21/2010 2:17:30 PM   
Djordje

 

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I just want to add something about using naval attack as primary mission and something else as secondary (ground attack for example) - If your planes fly ground attack mission they can increase BOTH ground bombing and naval bombing skill at the same time. I've even had pilots increase exp, GrB and NvB in the same day. So you don't swap your ground bombing skill for naval, you in fact get free naval bombing training. If you set your squadron below 6000 feet you will get free low naval training. Looks like code is awarding training for primary mission even when only secondary mission was flown. If only primary mission was flown code works ok, secondary doesn't get free training.

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RE: Attack bombers and other routines seem to have some... - 8/21/2010 2:42:27 PM   
castor troy


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From: Austria
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Djordje

I just want to add something about using naval attack as primary mission and something else as secondary (ground attack for example) - If your planes fly ground attack mission they can increase BOTH ground bombing and naval bombing skill at the same time. I've even had pilots increase exp, GrB and NvB in the same day. So you don't swap your ground bombing skill for naval, you in fact get free naval bombing training. If you set your squadron below 6000 feet you will get free low naval training. Looks like code is awarding training for primary mission even when only secondary mission was flown. If only primary mission was flown code works ok, secondary doesn't get free training.




yes, but I guess that´s not intended.

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RE: Attack bombers and other routines seem to have some... - 8/21/2010 2:56:32 PM   
mike scholl 1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

I have looked closely at the code and there seems to be a parenthesis in the wrong place.
   ... disrupt<die(10)))) || isAttackBomber)
One of those 3 should be at the send of the statement. This is causing the attacker bomber to start strafing first, rather than bomb and then strafe if it can.



Michael. As you were examining this code, could you please confirm/deny that there is a "level 80" restriction on pilot skill or experience involved in the "skip bombing" mission? Wilkerson told me he thought there was..., and if he is right it seems excessive. Maybe "60" would be more appropriate?

(in reply to michaelm)
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RE: Attack bombers and other routines seem to have some... - 8/26/2010 1:53:29 AM   
TheElf


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From: Corpus Christi, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

I have looked closely at the code and there seems to be a parenthesis in the wrong place.
   ... disrupt<die(10)))) || isAttackBomber)
One of those 3 should be at the send of the statement. This is causing the attacker bomber to start strafing first, rather than bomb and then strafe if it can.



Michael. As you were examining this code, could you please confirm/deny that there is a "level 80" restriction on pilot skill or experience involved in the "skip bombing" mission? Wilkerson told me he thought there was..., and if he is right it seems excessive. Maybe "60" would be more appropriate?


there is not. see this thread

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2556647

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WAR IN THE PACIFIC: Admiral's Edition - Air Team Lead

IN PERPETUUM SINGULARIS SEDES



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RE: Attack bombers and other routines seem to have some... - 8/28/2010 6:35:50 AM   
michaelm


Posts: 9049
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Djordje

I just want to add something about using naval attack as primary mission and something else as secondary (ground attack for example) - If your planes fly ground attack mission they can increase BOTH ground bombing and naval bombing skill at the same time. I've even had pilots increase exp, GrB and NvB in the same day. So you don't swap your ground bombing skill for naval, you in fact get free naval bombing training. If you set your squadron below 6000 feet you will get free low naval training. Looks like code is awarding training for primary mission even when only secondary mission was flown. If only primary mission was flown code works ok, secondary doesn't get free training.



Most skills are gained after a mission is completed and the pilot lands. At the end of each day, skills can be increased outside of the mission selected - this is the old sharing of knowledge from leaders and other pilots.

Note that skills are gained by way of an incremental points system. Each skill collects pints independently from training, or participating in a mission. Once the number of skill points exceeds 100, the actual skill in the skill list is incremented and the skill accumulator cleared. It is quite possible for more than one accumulating skill to pass the threshold at the end of a day and be reflected in more than one skill going GREEN.
Another way to increment a skill is if the pilot's experience (EXP) is increased, skill associated with the current mission may be increased instead.

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Michael

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RE: Attack bombers and other routines seem to have some... - 8/28/2010 8:25:34 AM   
castor troy


Posts: 12261
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm


quote:

ORIGINAL: Djordje

I just want to add something about using naval attack as primary mission and something else as secondary (ground attack for example) - If your planes fly ground attack mission they can increase BOTH ground bombing and naval bombing skill at the same time. I've even had pilots increase exp, GrB and NvB in the same day. So you don't swap your ground bombing skill for naval, you in fact get free naval bombing training. If you set your squadron below 6000 feet you will get free low naval training. Looks like code is awarding training for primary mission even when only secondary mission was flown. If only primary mission was flown code works ok, secondary doesn't get free training.



Most skills are gained after a mission is completed and the pilot lands. At the end of each day, skills can be increased outside of the mission selected - this is the old sharing of knowledge from leaders and other pilots.

Note that skills are gained by way of an incremental points system. Each skill collects pints independently from training, or participating in a mission. Once the number of skill points exceeds 100, the actual skill in the skill list is incremented and the skill accumulator cleared. It is quite possible for more than one accumulating skill to pass the threshold at the end of a day and be reflected in more than one skill going GREEN.
Another way to increment a skill is if the pilot's experience (EXP) is increased, skill associated with the current mission may be increased instead.



and with this routine, would you find it strange that for example in 10 navattack/airfield attack days (when only airfield attacks were flown) you only get NAVBMB skill increased? And if you would set them for 10 days on airfield attack only, only grdbmb skill would increase?

I´m aware that you can gain skills outside of the mission, this in fact happens, but very RARELY. Now the above mentioned skill gain outside of the flown mission happens regularly. Definetely sounds like a flaw, especially when you then don´t see the skill for the actual mission isn´t increased. To me, it sounds like the game thinks a navattack mission is flown because that´s the primary mission selected, but in fact the secondary mission is flown and that´s a ground attack. So it´s a bit odd if you see no grdbmb increase but all pilots increasing navbomb.

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RE: Attack bombers and other routines seem to have some... - 8/28/2010 9:19:59 AM   
michaelm


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Could I ask you for a save (combat replay will do) where you noticed this?
And which group(s) to look at.

I can't see why and it isn't happening for me.


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Michael

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RE: Attack bombers and other routines seem to have some... - 8/28/2010 9:57:58 AM   
castor troy


Posts: 12261
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

Could I ask you for a save (combat replay will do) where you noticed this?
And which group(s) to look at.

I can't see why and it isn't happening for me.




will provide one as soon as I´ve got squadrons on constant primary/secondary mission again. Would have one for the ARD "problem" though.

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RE: Attack bombers and other routines seem to have some... - 8/28/2010 10:18:46 AM   
michaelm


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Give me the ARD one too and I can run it against the new code I have got to see how it works.

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Michael

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RE: Attack bombers and other routines seem to have some... - 8/28/2010 10:35:48 AM   
michaelm


Posts: 9049
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From: Sydney, Australia
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Carried away.
The skill update is passed the pilot's current mission profile, but deep down in the code it overrides the passed mission for the group's PRIMARY MISSION. Ahhhhhh!!
Not sure how I am going to get around this but I will..

[EDIT]
Forget this. It only is using the mission if it doesn't get a proper skill/mission passed to it. For training purposes

< Message edited by michaelm -- 8/28/2010 10:43:25 AM >


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Michael

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RE: Attack bombers and other routines seem to have some... - 8/28/2010 2:04:14 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 12261
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

Carried away.
The skill update is passed the pilot's current mission profile, but deep down in the code it overrides the passed mission for the group's PRIMARY MISSION. Ahhhhhh!!
Not sure how I am going to get around this but I will..

[EDIT]
Forget this. It only is using the mission if it doesn't get a proper skill/mission passed to it. For training purposes



does that mean the primary/secondary mission skill improvement works or it doesn´t?

anyway, please find attached the save for the ARD, will pm password and details.

thanks for taking a look

Attachment (1)

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RE: Attack bombers and other routines seem to have some... - 8/29/2010 1:14:33 AM   
michaelm


Posts: 9049
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Sydney, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

Carried away.
The skill update is passed the pilot's current mission profile, but deep down in the code it overrides the passed mission for the group's PRIMARY MISSION. Ahhhhhh!!
Not sure how I am going to get around this but I will..

[EDIT]
Forget this. It only is using the mission if it doesn't get a proper skill/mission passed to it. For training purposes



does that mean the primary/secondary mission skill improvement works or it doesn´t?

anyway, please find attached the save for the ARD, will pm password and details.

thanks for taking a look

It does work according to the code. What I thought I found is specific to Training mission only.


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Michael

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