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Yamato-waste of naval points - 8/15/2010 8:46:46 PM   
bigred


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Given the resupply issues associated w/ the Yamato/Musashi would the ship build points be better spent on other ships?
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RE: Yamato-waste of naval points - 8/15/2010 8:47:47 PM   
Terminus


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Definitely a waste of materials and effort.

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RE: Yamato-waste of naval points - 8/15/2010 9:34:49 PM   
cap_and_gown


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They are almost finished, at least the Yamato is. You might as well finish at least the Yamato.

What are you going to build instead? A bunch of Kamikaze subs? I suppose you could save the HI points and build nothing instead. This will save you fuel or accumulate extra HI, your choice. But surface combat ships are quite valuable.

As to rearm points, you have Truk, Rabaul, and lots of places in the DEI as well as the Home Islands. With the proper application of naval support points, your choices of rearm points can be greatly expanded.

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RE: Yamato-waste of naval points - 8/16/2010 5:26:07 AM   
bigred


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In the RA mod 3 Shokaku class carriers are available in mid 43. If These 3xCVs are excelerated at a cost of 300 BPs per turn then all will arrive late 42. To make this happen all BB/BC construction needs to be halted.

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RE: Yamato-waste of naval points - 8/16/2010 6:09:05 AM   
John 3rd


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Hey BigRed.

I would still finish Yamato. It doesn't have very long to go before it it ready for action. If you want to accelerate those other CVs stop work on Yamato's sister. That frees up 230 points by itself. This is a tough call in RA.

You've got more shipyards but you also have 5 Capital Ships (3 Sho-Kai and 2 BC) plus Yamato and Musashi within your building que prior to those Unryu's coming into the pipeline. How do you think you will handle it?

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RE: Yamato-waste of naval points - 8/16/2010 3:08:53 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bigred

Given the resupply issues associated w/ the Yamato/Musashi would the ship build points be better spent on other ships?


Big Yammy is near completion, you might as well complete her. As in real life, usefulness depends on how you use em and a bit of luck. In my games where i've had some key surface encounters Yammy has made a vital difference doing the job she was meant to do. (Blasting other behemoths)....in other games she's been carrier bait.

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RE: Yamato-waste of naval points - 8/16/2010 5:28:34 PM   
crsutton


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Well, as an Allied fanboy my experience is that suface actions in AE are way over the top. It is so easy to run surface ships around the map undetected by air search and the impact of even a small surface raiding force on even an escorted convoy can be a total disaster. (yeah, that happened all the time in the real war...) Add the ability of surface TF to react over hundreds of miles of open ocean and you got a different game. For these reasons,  I think the big BBs are a good buy. The only thing that can touch them are  torpedoes and in 1942 Allied surface and naval forces don't really have torpedoes and the Allies have no air delivered torpedoes to speak of except for those found on the carriers. So these big boys rule far beyond their historical impact. They eat old British and American BBs for lunch as well.

Later on they can escort carriers to provide extra AA and sop up some 1,000 lb bombs that would normally hit your carriers. I don't know if an extra carrier or two will help in 1944 but these two grunts will be there for you in 1942 when they can be very useful.

< Message edited by crsutton -- 8/16/2010 5:29:12 PM >


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RE: Yamato-waste of naval points - 8/16/2010 5:43:56 PM   
Streptokok

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton
They eat old British and American BBs for lunch as well.


That seems like a good reason to built it

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RE: Yamato-waste of naval points - 8/16/2010 5:57:56 PM   
Q-Ball


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IMO, YAMATO should be built. She's almost done, and let's face it: She flat out LOOKS cool, and that's important. As crsutton said, she eats old BBs for lunch, and can take a whole lot of punishment (though takes forever to repair)

The real debate should be on MUSASHI. I am on the fence on her, I can see the merit to shelving her and allocating those points to CVs instead. What's the exact payoff to mothballing her in terms of accelerated CVs, anyone calculate that?

The YAMATOS are more useful in AE than IRL, so that should be taken into account.

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RE: Yamato-waste of naval points - 8/16/2010 6:23:16 PM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

The YAMATOS are more useful in AE than IRL, so that should be taken into account.


I'm not entirely convinced of this. Frankly, the IJN was very timid using them until too late. Had they been used in '42 say around Tarawa in August ....

Point is the players take FAR bigger risks with capital ships than real life Admirals ever would. I think (opinion here) the difference is that national pride was so intertwined with the BB's. Losing one was a real blow to prestige and no one wanted to go there ... on either side.

My suggestion is that players tend to use them as they should have been used absent the politics. But, we all know that reality is loaded with politics ... so ....

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RE: Yamato-waste of naval points - 8/16/2010 6:26:16 PM   
Nikademus


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Surface combat routines have alot of variables in them that make grown men cry. Like other 'general' BB related complaints sometimes you'll be lucky if they fire a secondary battery much less the mains. Sometimes though......you'll get some sweet spot hits. BB's in general in AE also will attract dive and torpedo bombers like moths to flames. One facet to keep in mind with the Yamato's is that they can only absorb a fraction of the torpedo hits they could take in real life. In AE , 4-5 is all it takes to sink em.


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RE: Yamato-waste of naval points - 8/16/2010 7:46:50 PM   
Q-Ball


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
One facet to keep in mind with the Yamato's is that they can only absorb a fraction of the torpedo hits they could take in real life. In AE , 4-5 is all it takes to sink em.


Very true, but in my experience they can take alot of bombs. I think anything under 1000lb just bounces off, and even some of the 1000lb hits I have seen them bounce. It's a very tough target for DBs.

Not sure if that's everyone's experience



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RE: Yamato-waste of naval points - 8/16/2010 7:59:02 PM   
Nikademus


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in AE, enough non-penetrating bomb hits will cause substantial amounts of SYS and Fire damage. If the FIRE levels get high enough the ship will probably be lost unless you get into a shipyard or port with an AR quick.

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RE: Yamato-waste of naval points - 8/16/2010 11:30:48 PM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

in AE, enough non-penetrating bomb hits will cause substantial amounts of SYS and Fire damage. If the FIRE levels get high enough the ship will probably be lost unless you get into a shipyard or port with an AR quick.


AR can helpwith FIRE on a ship? I did not realize that. Thanks for the tip ....

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RE: Yamato-waste of naval points - 8/17/2010 12:02:30 AM   
Sredni

 

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Well... as the allies my surface ships are terrified of the yamato and her sister. I could probably send all of my battleships vs those two and still come out the loser. Vs the AI I just dropped like 50 bombs on the Yamato and all I did was scratch her paint. Stupid torpedo planes all missed lol.

If you need to smash some enemy surface ships the Yamato is the most effective ship in the world at doing so.

Even if the age of the battleship was dead and gone by this point, I wish the Americans had produced some Montanas. Or realized before the war that limiting battleships to panama capable severly gimps them for combat. Stupid canal.

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RE: Yamato-waste of naval points - 8/17/2010 1:32:00 AM   
John 3rd


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These ships do hold value. Given the off-chance that they can get into Surface action---LOOK OUT! Being a Dauntless magnet also holds important advantages too...

I cannot wait to see my new BCs as they get into action as fast CTF Escorts or leaders of Raiding TF.


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RE: Yamato-waste of naval points - 8/17/2010 1:59:03 AM   
BrucePowers


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I say build her and Musashi. They have their uses. Sometimes a fleet in being can cause considerable expendature of important assets.

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RE: Yamato-waste of naval points - 8/17/2010 2:00:49 AM   
BrucePowers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Surface combat routines have alot of variables in them that make grown men cry. Like other 'general' BB related complaints sometimes you'll be lucky if they fire a secondary battery much less the mains. Sometimes though......you'll get some sweet spot hits. BB's in general in AE also will attract dive and torpedo bombers like moths to flames. One facet to keep in mind with the Yamato's is that they can only absorb a fraction of the torpedo hits they could take in real life. In AE , 4-5 is all it takes to sink em.




Ack!!! The game's broken. Call Don Bowen. Call Joe Wilkerson!!!

(I'm kidding).

< Message edited by BrucePowers -- 8/17/2010 2:01:03 AM >

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RE: Yamato-waste of naval points - 8/17/2010 2:02:31 AM   
Gräfin Zeppelin


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Its a known fact that any allied TF commander will scuttle all his ships if the Yamatos are approaching.

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RE: Yamato-waste of naval points - 8/17/2010 2:33:35 AM   
topeverest

 

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+1 on build both Y and M. You want that firepower. you are likely to get your money's worth on these bad boys. With less than 200 NSP's you can use them in operations in several forward locations. That makes Rabaul and Truk great potential forward deployment areas.

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RE: Yamato-waste of naval points - 8/17/2010 12:11:32 PM   
bigred


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Has anyone seen the effect of a minefield on the Yamato?

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RE: Yamato-waste of naval points - 8/17/2010 12:12:40 PM   
xj900uk

 

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They will need decent support backup (ie loaded AKE's in port) or else good naval support if you want to keep these battlewagons well fed...

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RE: Yamato-waste of naval points - 8/17/2010 12:59:00 PM   
FatR

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

in AE, enough non-penetrating bomb hits will cause substantial amounts of SYS and Fire damage. If the FIRE levels get high enough the ship will probably be lost unless you get into a shipyard or port with an AR quick.

"Enough" is quite a number, though. In my current Japanese PBEM Yamashiro once took 5 1000-lb. bombs (which would have stood a good chance of mission-killing her in RL) and, despite catching fire, did not suffer any meaningful reduction in combat capability. I didn't even need to send her to a shipyard afterwards. Fuso and Hyuga took 3 1000-lbers each on the same day and just shrugged them off. Non-penetrating hits only sunk major warships in my games if these already had severe system damage, rendering them unable to contain the fires.

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RE: Yamato-waste of naval points - 8/17/2010 2:53:16 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatR


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

in AE, enough non-penetrating bomb hits will cause substantial amounts of SYS and Fire damage. If the FIRE levels get high enough the ship will probably be lost unless you get into a shipyard or port with an AR quick.

"Enough" is quite a number, though. In my current Japanese PBEM Yamashiro once took 5 1000-lb. bombs (which would have stood a good chance of mission-killing her in RL) and, despite catching fire, did not suffer any meaningful reduction in combat capability.


Maybe....maybe not. Depending on where the bombs hit. Sometimes that can even be the case with torpedoes (re: Bismarck) As always, the reminder is that there are abstractions in the game as well as elements which are not represented, in the latter case an example would be crew casualties....another is a true Near Miss Hit location with a die roll for possible flooding. WitP's history has been one of trying to balance representing the difference between armor protecting a ship's vital components and armor failing to do so. blur the line too much (as has been the case with some test builds), and armor becomes useless.....Too much the other way and you have what sometimes occured in stock. (invulnerable ships).

There is more variability built into AE vs. Stock. In "general", yes, you'll need to smother a heavily armored target with devices that don't penetrate but its better than Stock days where a BB could shrug off dozens of hits for little impact outside of secondary and teritary weapons damage. With shipyard introduction, such weapon damage is more signifigant and the fire hazzard has been greatly increased. In my current AI game for example, I just smothered a Kongo class BB with non penetrating hits. On last recon, it was crawling away, on fire, looking to be in serious hurt. Fire can no longer be discounted in the game. BB's cannot ignore airpower and in the case of a behemoth like Yamato, even moderate damage will put her in a shipyard for some time and cost naval repair points.





< Message edited by Nikademus -- 8/17/2010 2:55:22 PM >

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RE: Yamato-waste of naval points - 8/17/2010 4:33:50 PM   
Lecivius


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I recently pasted the Musashi with 27 1000lb bombs and 6 500lb bombs (range was to far for torpedoes), in my AI game Scen 2.

I flipped it in curiosity to see what damage I had inflicted.  14 points into Sys damage.  I was pretty disappointed.  These 2 BB's, in AE, are pretty bullet proof against most Allied platforms.

< Message edited by Lecivius -- 8/17/2010 5:04:11 PM >

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RE: Yamato-waste of naval points - 8/17/2010 4:41:34 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

IMO, YAMATO should be built. She's almost done, and let's face it: She flat out LOOKS cool, and that's important. As crsutton said, she eats old BBs for lunch, and can take a whole lot of punishment (though takes forever to repair)

The real debate should be on MUSASHI. I am on the fence on her, I can see the merit to shelving her and allocating those points to CVs instead. What's the exact payoff to mothballing her in terms of accelerated CVs, anyone calculate that?

The YAMATOS are more useful in AE than IRL, so that should be taken into account.



I always felt that there should a big PP cost for not building these two fat boys. Everybody knows that as a matter of Japanese naval and national prestige, there is no way they would have been canceled-no matter how practical. We AFBs have to pay if we don't send our old British BBs back to Winston. I think it only fair...

So yeah, you can put one of these babys on hold, but a X PP points per day.......

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RE: Yamato-waste of naval points - 8/17/2010 4:44:24 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Surface combat routines have alot of variables in them that make grown men cry. Like other 'general' BB related complaints sometimes you'll be lucky if they fire a secondary battery much less the mains. Sometimes though......you'll get some sweet spot hits. BB's in general in AE also will attract dive and torpedo bombers like moths to flames. One facet to keep in mind with the Yamato's is that they can only absorb a fraction of the torpedo hits they could take in real life. In AE , 4-5 is all it takes to sink em.





This is true but if it came down to Yamato eating 4-5 torpedoes rather than Kaga, I think that would be the way to go for me..

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RE: Yamato-waste of naval points - 8/17/2010 5:24:12 PM   
John 3rd


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

IMO, YAMATO should be built. She's almost done, and let's face it: She flat out LOOKS cool, and that's important. As crsutton said, she eats old BBs for lunch, and can take a whole lot of punishment (though takes forever to repair)

The real debate should be on MUSASHI. I am on the fence on her, I can see the merit to shelving her and allocating those points to CVs instead. What's the exact payoff to mothballing her in terms of accelerated CVs, anyone calculate that?

The YAMATOS are more useful in AE than IRL, so that should be taken into account.



I always felt that there should a big PP cost for not building these two fat boys. Everybody knows that as a matter of Japanese naval and national prestige, there is no way they would have been canceled-no matter how practical. We AFBs have to pay if we don't send our old British BBs back to Winston. I think it only fair...

So yeah, you can put one of these babys on hold, but a X PP points per day.......


I would totally agree with this idea.

The premise of RA was--even with Yamamoto in control--the 'Gun' Club STILL had to be appeased. This means the building of two new BC to act as fast escorts for Yamato and Musashi.


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RE: Yamato-waste of naval points - 8/17/2010 5:37:37 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


This is true but if it came down to Yamato eating 4-5 torpedoes rather than Kaga, I think that would be the way to go for me..



Regrettably, the "sponge" tactic still works very very well.

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RE: Yamato-waste of naval points - 8/17/2010 5:41:02 PM   
cap_and_gown


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As PzB has commented, evil empires need to have a super weapon.

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