Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

What if .... you play with no rules ?

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> What if .... you play with no rules ? Page: [1]
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
What if .... you play with no rules ? - 7/27/2010 9:51:49 PM   
David The Great


Posts: 95
Joined: 10/3/2008
Status: offline
We intend to start a game in the future without house rules and no historical first turn.
My question is what can each side expect ? What is the worst you can do if you play without any rules ?


Post #: 1
RE: What if .... you play with no rules ? - 7/27/2010 10:01:46 PM   


Posts: 10292
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline
Depends on your definition of "worst".  You'll likely have a fairly ahistorical game, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing.



WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer

(in reply to David The Great)
Post #: 2
RE: What if .... you play with no rules ? - 7/27/2010 10:14:08 PM   

Posts: 15745
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline
The problem is that there are sometimes ways to work the game that the other side may not have any counter for, so that a particular strategy is unfair.

Right after the release of AE it was possible for the Japanese player to drive China out of the game (strategic bombing, transferring Kwangchung units to China, and the use of massed artillery that at the time had "nuclear" effects) made this possible or likely.  There was not much the Allied player could do.  Sure, he could do everything in his power to stymie the Japanese, but a big army with massed artillery could blow through the most stout garrison with six or eight forts.  It was ugly.

Since then the nuclear effect of artillery has been eliminated, so this strategy may not be available to Japan any more.  But Japan can still easily wipe out Chinese industry through strategic bombing...and there's little the Allies can do to stop it.  Oh, you can try to utilize fighters, but it won't work for a number of important reasons.

I don't like house rules, but if I were starting a new game there is only one that I would absolutlely insist on - no strategic bombing (at least in China) until 1944.  Nearly every game that's started recently has included this rule.

Other things may come to light as you get into the game that may require attention by house rule.

(in reply to wdolson)
Post #: 3
RE: What if .... you play with no rules ? - 7/27/2010 11:19:22 PM   

Posts: 382
Joined: 8/11/2009
Status: offline
Skip bombing US 4e bombers are pretty nasty in 1941/42 :). Actually US 4E bombers are pretty nasty full stop.

I think you'll get an interesting game, especially with scenario 2.. both sides have options that weren't historical.

One rule you seriously consider in restricted units.. Japan can move a game changing amount out of China into Burma say without paying PP... and the Allies can cut into Burma a little later in 42 with the Indian units. Who knows maybe it evens out!!

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 4
RE: What if .... you play with no rules ? - 7/28/2010 2:07:12 AM   

Posts: 2827
Joined: 11/19/2007
Status: offline
"No house rules" is actually how the game should be played.
It's more fun that way except for people who like historical accuracy.


(in reply to PresterJohn001)
Post #: 5
RE: What if .... you play with no rules ? - 7/28/2010 5:09:12 AM   

Posts: 708
Joined: 2/24/2007
From: Sheridan Wyoming, USA
Status: offline
No House Rules means the USN can move Battleship row out of Pearl Harbor.  


Sometimes things said in Nitwit sound very different in English.

(in reply to jomni)
Post #: 6
RE: What if .... you play with no rules ? - 7/28/2010 10:09:18 AM   


Posts: 1526
Joined: 11/21/2006
From: UK
Status: offline
the worst i could think of

moving the fleet from Pearl
some people dont agree with a Manilla AND Pearl strike
Kwantung units to China
unloading forces in coastal hexes with no base or dot
sailing past singapore without taking singapore

My PBEM opponent and I play with no rules but in the past we have asked - do you think this is fair and discussed each point

(in reply to offenseman)
Post #: 7
RE: What if .... you play with no rules ? - 7/28/2010 11:00:54 AM   


Posts: 537
Joined: 9/12/2004
Status: offline
If you both know how game works and are willing to exploit it, either of you can pretty much ruin the game:

- Japan can pull nearly 3k additional AV from Manchuria into China and take everything of importance there, and then continue through Burma to India with all those troops. There he could take lots of important bases while being careful not to trigger additional Indian troops. By taking Ceylon he would prevent some of important RN ships from appearing in the game. In other theaters Japan can go directly for undefended areas and weakly garrisoned bases, but in general there is not much to be gained by that. Japan needs oil and won't be able to get it and protect it (see below), which will make the game end by Japan's defeat by the end of 1943.

- Allies can try to counter China invasion by pulling millions of supplies in Burma bases and then using draw supply function move it over Himalayas by land. With enough supplies and time Chinese troops might have a chance of not being completely wiped out, but they will still probably lose. But even though Allies might lose land war in the north they will be able to rule the seas much sooner than in RL. No house rules means that player can empty PH of any ships and send them away from KB so USN will remain intact. Allies can send B17s in Philippines and elsewhere on 100 feet naval attacks and cause really heavy losses on most of the invasion fleets in the first few months. You can leave any base with oil within Japanese reach without garrison and they will get demolished by domestic population before Japan can claim them, and once they claim them what remains can easily be obliterated by heavy bombers. Japan with no oil and USN intact means much shorter game.

As you can see with no house rules all it takes is one player who is willing to ignore reality and do things that game engine allows and ruin the game. This game is very complex, it is played for many years and it is almost normal that there will always be holes in the system for one to exploit, it is up to players to resist temptations and play fairly. By starting PBEM you are committing yourself to a relationship with someone for the next year or two, so find someone who is not in it for the win at all costs, someone who wants to have fun instead no matter what.

Luckily vast majority of this forum's users fall in that category.

(in reply to offenseman)
Post #: 8
RE: What if .... you play with no rules ? - 7/28/2010 5:38:59 PM   

Posts: 5809
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline
Well, the trick with NO RULES games is that BOTH players can play with no rules. The counter to the IJA pulling in 4 or 5,000 additional AV from Manchuria is for the Allied player to bring supplies into China and build up the Chinese army.

If you're playing no rules then there's lots of stuff both players can do which is ahistorical and for everything one player can do which is extreme the other player has a counter.

Might this lead to ahistorical games? Sure but even with loads of home rules the Allies are, in most games, advancing through the southern DEI by mid-42 in most games. That's pretty damned ahistorical.

It is a game, there isn't a right or a wrong way to play it. There's just whatever way you find fun.


John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.

(in reply to Djordje)
Post #: 9
RE: What if .... you play with no rules ? - 7/28/2010 7:30:14 PM   

Posts: 6278
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline
Restricted units shouldn't cross borders; this would have been coded into the game if it was possible; I believe the developers looked into it.

Without it, the Japanese have 4000 AV available in Manchuria, another 1000 or so in the RTA, and the Allies have Indian Troops and Chinese hordes that can invade SE Asia at will.

I agree with Dan on the China strat bombing, we have that rule. As a counter-balance, we have rule that Japanese can't be strat bombed either until 1944 (basically to prevent Allies from strat bombing all the OIL early). By 1944, Allies can get good fighters into China, and Allied strat bombing campaigns began in earnest.

The good thing about AE: There are a whole raft of gameplay HR in WITP that no longer apply. Airbase stacking, CV stacking, PT boat TFs, etc. etc.

< Message edited by Q-Ball -- 7/28/2010 7:31:37 PM >


(in reply to Nemo121)
Post #: 10
RE: What if .... you play with no rules ? - 7/28/2010 10:13:22 PM   
mike scholl 1


Posts: 1265
Joined: 2/17/2010
Status: offline
House Rules are there to fix problems that the designers either couldn't or didn't fix.  And in a game this complex, such problems are inevitable.  If you want to play without any, fine..., but you should really then also remove the one's that were fixed to level the playing field.  Go back to the original WITP and watch hundreds of B-17 skip bombers remove KB from the face of the earth.

(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 11
RE: What if .... you play with no rules ? - 7/29/2010 7:43:09 AM   

Posts: 4742
Joined: 7/4/2007
From: Deutschland
Status: offline
You can have a great game without rules. All it takes is two players who like to have a good game and keep everything reasonable.


Without any doubt: I am the spawn of evil - and the Bavarian Beer Monster (BBM)!

There's only one bad word and that's taxes. If any other word is good enough for sailors; it's good enough for you. - Ron Swanson

(in reply to mike scholl 1)
Post #: 12
RE: What if .... you play with no rules ? - 7/29/2010 5:58:46 PM   
Jonathan Pollard

Posts: 553
Joined: 2/25/2007
From: Federal prison
Status: offline
There were some attempts to play War in the Pacific without rules, they were called "lunacy" games. I believe you can still see AARs from them in the WITP forum. From what I remember, they turned out to be reasonably good games.


(in reply to Historiker)
Post #: 13
RE: What if .... you play with no rules ? - 7/30/2010 1:27:15 AM   
Jonathan Pollard

Posts: 553
Joined: 2/25/2007
From: Federal prison
Status: offline
Here are a couple of threads from the WITP forum about its lunacy games. The second thread summarizes the results of the lunacy games.


(in reply to Jonathan Pollard)
Post #: 14
RE: What if .... you play with no rules ? - 7/30/2010 4:58:44 AM   


Posts: 4394
Joined: 9/5/2001
Status: offline
I like the lunacy games. No rules at all. I would have liked even more but I was having major problems with my ISP at the time. I live in the boondocks and for a long period of time I could not get any internet at home. It really cramped my gaming. That would be the same time I had to drop out against PzB and Andy Mac took over.

Since both sides could seem to find ways to take some advantage it really kept you on your toes. No crying, no whining, just a lot of convoluted thinking trying to find loopholes.

< Message edited by Nomad -- 7/30/2010 4:59:48 AM >


(in reply to Jonathan Pollard)
Post #: 15
RE: What if .... you play with no rules ? - 7/31/2010 11:45:10 PM   

Posts: 3198
Joined: 10/17/2007
From: Houston, TX - USA
Status: offline
Interesting recap of an age-old question. I also agree that minimal HR's are prefereable. we play with two...

IMHO, in non-historical first turn games with first turn surprise - forbidden allied movements / activations are quite important for longer term game balance. We also favor disallowing strategic bombing gamewide until 1943.

As far as any other HR, I look at it as a player(s) discretion. It is this flexibility that brings the richness and variability of the experience. I (obviously) dont think there are any game-breakers available to either side, and my esteemed opponent and I play that way. That said, I think there is room enough for any HR's that players can live with in their own world war II efforts.


Andy M

(in reply to Nomad)
Post #: 16
RE: What if .... you play with no rules ? - 8/1/2010 1:48:03 PM   

Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline
Only real HR I advocate for is the one involving restricted units crossing borders...


Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to topeverest)
Post #: 17
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> What if .... you play with no rules ? Page: [1]
Jump to:

New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts

Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI