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RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor

 
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RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/3/2010 9:24:32 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

The US action did not mean Japan had to choose war, but having done so, when she had another, perfectly peaceful option she could have pursued, was ultimately her problem - or more accurately, that of her people.



Thats not how the Japanese saw it.


(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 181
RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/3/2010 9:36:06 PM   
vettim89


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

The vast majority of professional historians, who have access to more documentation than you could possibly imagine, have provided formal, and peer reviewed, refutations in professional journals too numerous to mention. Facts are generally not at issue. Facts are either verifiable as fact, or dismissed as apocrypha. What is at issue is interpretation of fact.



Why do journals have editorial boards? Why are articles "peer reviewed" prior to being published?

It is not to reject nor accept findings, conclusions, or even hypotheses. It is to verify the investigator used solid technique. What that means depends on the type of investigation. In hard science it has to do with controling variables, proper sample size, proper statistical analyses, and other easily defined criteria. History is harder but some of the same principles apply. Peer reviewed does not mean that authors position will be universally accpted but instead that it was found that proper technique was folowed in gathering the information.

Anybody can say anything. It may indeed be impossible for a variety of reasons to tell the veracity of any statement. However, we can examine how the person making the statement came to their conclusions. That is what peer reviewed means. That is why some sources are considered to be more valid than others.

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Post #: 182
RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/3/2010 9:39:03 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

The US action did not mean Japan had to choose war, but having done so, when she had another, perfectly peaceful option she could have pursued, was ultimately her problem - or more accurately, that of her people.



Thats not how the Japanese saw it.


Warspite1

Er...obviously not

The fact that they saw it differently and CHOSE war does not mean that FDR was complicit in the deaths of circa 2,400 US civilians and service personnel as is being alleged.

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Post #: 183
RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/3/2010 9:45:50 PM   
Phanatik


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For Vettim89: If I was meanspirited in any of my responses, please point them out to me and I will apologize. I rather thought I was being polite, even when I was labelled anti-U.S. and unpatriotic.

For someone else who mentioned Prange: Yes, his book is sitting by my bed as well. I have the 60th anniversary edition. I note he died in 1980 I believe, so I don't know if he ever got to view/include the declassified documents that Pres. Carter made available for his book.

Cheers

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 184
RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/3/2010 9:46:57 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


The fact that they saw it differently and CHOSE war does not mean that FDR was complicit in the deaths of circa 2,400 US civilians and service personnel as is being alleged.


nope....but i should have picked up the book at the used bookstore. The piss and vinegar that the mere mention of the book makes just makes me wonder sometimes. Deja-vu for me. (back on warships1.com) The outrage the book generated there make this thread seem like Barney meets Teletubbies.


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Post #: 185
RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/3/2010 10:10:56 PM   
JWE

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
There was a news report last week that a new trove of privately-held FDR documents HAS just been released to researchers. The article I read in my local paper said that Doris Kearns Goodwin, one of the preeminent FDR historians, had not seen them and was rubbing her hands to get a look.
....

You are supposed to be a lawyer, so perhaps you should think like one. Private is private. Heck, I have private files that no one can ever access, for forever. Once private files open they are public and open for all. Suggest a teensy bit more modern analysis of 17 and 35 USC.

Aw, hell. Who cares anyway. I mean je ne sais quoi is just an aftershave, yeah?

< Message edited by JWE -- 8/3/2010 10:46:34 PM >


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Post #: 186
RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/3/2010 10:50:43 PM   
Historiker


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quote:

I mean je ne sais quoi is just an aftershave, yeah?

I guess you'll have to prepare yourself better for Tahiti, my friend

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(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 187
RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/3/2010 10:53:51 PM   
Historiker


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We have an author in Germany, who has "proven" that the medieval never existed and are just an invention of some creative bastards.
His book is in the 18th or 19th issue...

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Post #: 188
RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/3/2010 11:27:05 PM   
JWE

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker
quote:

I mean je ne sais quoi is just an aftershave, yeah?

I guess you'll have to prepare yourself better for Tahiti, my friend

Ah, Torsten, my friend; you truly understand, don't you? I knew you would get it.

btw, it's not Tahiti. It is in French Polynesia, but it's in lles Marquises. Way far even from Taiohae, down around between Mohotani and Fatu Hiva.

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Post #: 189
RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/3/2010 11:30:55 PM   
Thayne

 

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I would like to point out that there is a distinction between performing a set of actions while suspecting or even knowing that it will have a particular outcome, and performing those actions with the intention that they have that outcome.

A parent pulls his car out in front of a run-away truck to save his children who are playing down the street. He knows that he will be severely injured or killed. Yet, this is not the same as saying that he performed the action with the intention of being seriously injured or killed.

With respect to FDR and WWII, there is a great deal of evidence that the Roosevelt administration knew or strongly suspected that its conduct would lead to a war with Japan. (Not necessarily with Germany.) If it did lead to war, it was necessary that Japan fire the first shot. That is to say, it must be obvious that Japan made the choice for war to exist, not Washington.

However, to say that FDR strongly suspected that Japan would choose war is not the same that he performed those actions with the intention of going to war. If Japan would have withdrawn from China, then there would have been no war. Japan selected the option, not FDR.

This alone is as solid a fact as one can find in history.

Japan selected the war option.

Perhaps, given its character, it could not choose anything else. Yet, this simply iterates the quality of the Japanese character at the time - that it could not choose the better option.

One could say that, given the Japanese character, it could not choose anything but the invasion of China or the rape of Nanking. However, this too would merely reveal the nature of the Japanese national character. It would not, in any way, justify the conclusion that China is morally responsible for being attacked, or that the people in Nanking were culpable for its rape. Or that FDR is morally culpable for the Japanese attack.

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 190
RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/3/2010 11:38:25 PM   
witpqs


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Well put, Thayne.

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Post #: 191
RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/4/2010 12:40:25 AM   
Whisper

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phanatik
BTW & FYI I have a ton of old paperwork, some awards, and such that would disagree with you RE: Cryptologic. But thanks for correcting me about what I spent 8 years doing. I'll inform the Navy they've got it wrong. You can google it, but everyone knows you can't trust the internet. I didn't type this. I wasn't here.

Cheers

As any civilian can easily find out, there is no such MOS as a cryptologic technician. Cryptologic is an adverbial phrase used, inter alia, on the internet by the cryptology fraternity as a activity description. Probably where you got it from.

There are way too many people on these threads that have real cryptographic experience for you to make that pathetic little claim fly.

(in reply to Phanatik)
Post #: 192
RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/4/2010 1:17:55 AM   
Phanatik


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From: Nashville, Tn
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To Whisper,
Perhaps you should spend more time minding your beaches and not pronouncing on something YOU obviously know nothing about, civilian or not.

First of all, I believe MOS is an army term. I said I was in the Navy. But if I recall correctly, since you asked, I think the Army designation was 92Golf, maybe 97Golf, for a Navy CT. That could be the Marine classification. It has been 17 years since I was in.
Second, if you google cryptologic technician, you can get to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptologic_technician
Which gives you:
Cryptologic Technician (CT) is a United States Navy enlisted rating or job specialty. The CT community performs a wide range of tasks in support of the national intelligence effort, with an emphasis on cryptology and signal intelligence related products.

Most CT personnel are required to obtain and maintain security clearances. Due to the highly classified work environment, it is not always possible to share resources with other commands. Almost every detail surrounding the CT world from administration to operations to repair requires dedicated technicians with appropriate security clearances (this accounts for the many branches of the CT rating, i.e. CTA, CTI, CTM, CTN, CTR, CTT). The contribution of an individual CT will depend upon the branch or career area.

Members of the CT community enjoy a wide range of career and training options. Once trained, a CT might serve ashore, afloat or in a airborne capacity. (It is rare, but some have earned all three, i.e. dolphins, wings and swords over the course of a career.) A CT can expect overseas assignments of lengthy duration.


So, pathetically speaking, it appears you qualify. Great job analyzing someone you've never met, nor know anything about. You qualify to be On The Internet. Your button saying so is in the mail.

Cheers

(in reply to Whisper)
Post #: 193
RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/4/2010 2:34:37 AM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
There was a news report last week that a new trove of privately-held FDR documents HAS just been released to researchers. The article I read in my local paper said that Doris Kearns Goodwin, one of the preeminent FDR historians, had not seen them and was rubbing her hands to get a look.
....

You are supposed to be a lawyer, so perhaps you should think like one. Private is private. Heck, I have private files that no one can ever access, for forever. Once private files open they are public and open for all. Suggest a teensy bit more modern analysis of 17 and 35 USC.

Aw, hell. Who cares anyway. I mean je ne sais quoi is just an aftershave, yeah?


Well, I'm not a lawyer. I make sure to say that as acting like one without a license is a crime.

Second, the FDR files released/opened/bought are, from the news descriptions I've seen, a mix of stuff saved by FDR's secretaries. Some is official correspondence, some official incoming correspondence (like the letter from Mussolini), and some highly personal, private stuff unrelated to the presidency. In the 1930s and 40s there was far less official archiving than has been the case since. Presidential libraries (palaces) are a recent phenom.

I only mentioned the files in repsonse to your statement about a lack of new documents.

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Post #: 194
RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/4/2010 2:36:21 AM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Whisper


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phanatik
BTW & FYI I have a ton of old paperwork, some awards, and such that would disagree with you RE: Cryptologic. But thanks for correcting me about what I spent 8 years doing. I'll inform the Navy they've got it wrong. You can google it, but everyone knows you can't trust the internet. I didn't type this. I wasn't here.

Cheers

As any civilian can easily find out, there is no such MOS as a cryptologic technician. Cryptologic is an adverbial phrase used, inter alia, on the internet by the cryptology fraternity as a activity description. Probably where you got it from.

There are way too many people on these threads that have real cryptographic experience for you to make that pathetic little claim fly.


FWIW, the USN doesn't use MOS codes.

Edit: I should have read one more.

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The Moose

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Post #: 195
RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/4/2010 3:37:58 AM   
vettim89


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From: Toledo, Ohio
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phanatik

For Vettim89: If I was meanspirited in any of my responses, please point them out to me and I will apologize. I rather thought I was being polite, even when I was labelled anti-U.S. and unpatriotic.

For someone else who mentioned Prange: Yes, his book is sitting by my bed as well. I have the 60th anniversary edition. I note he died in 1980 I believe, so I don't know if he ever got to view/include the declassified documents that Pres. Carter made available for his book.

Cheers




I think you may have mistook "anti-US" as meaning unpatriotic. For you, as an American citizen, the two terms would be synonomous. However, in the context that not every one who posts in this Forum is from the USA or even North America, the term Anti-US has a very different meaning.

Now that said, have you considered what your original post truly stated? Am I understanding it correctly that it is your position the the President of the United States had perfect foreknowledge of the Japanese plan to attack PH which included the approach route, time of attack, egress route, and other specific details of the plan. Once armed with this knowledge he explicitly ordered the US forces in the Pacific to change their dispositions to give the Japanese attack the greatest chance of success. He then further took all measures he could to assure that US forces on Oahu were in the worst possible state at the time of the attack. All this led to the deaths of over 2100 US servicemen and injuries to thousands more.

In the process of accomplishing all this the POTUS was able to coopt every person involved in this plan so that no one with knowledge of the president's actions ever had an attack of conscience and stepped forward. Is it your position that FDR was so filled with blood lust that he could sacrifice thousands of American lives to further his cause? Is it your position that this monster of human being was able to completely surround himself with like minded people such that every one willingly went along with this evil plan? Is it your further contention that almost every author who has studied this matter since WWII failed to unearth any evidence of this conspiracy?

Have your really considered what crimes you are accusing so many Americans of committing? Some of the people that you are accusing of being complicit in this are considered by many to be heroes.

I realize there are those that find this sort of revisionists history to be an interesting intellectual exercise. This is certainly not the first time I have heard such a theory put forth. I for one have a serious problem with denigrating the service and good names of so many Americans without a single peice of irrefutable evidence for your case.

edit: fixed my homonym error - conscience not conscious

< Message edited by vettim89 -- 8/4/2010 1:32:49 PM >


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Post #: 196
RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/4/2010 3:47:42 AM   
JWE

 

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Wow, I haven't had this much fun reading a thread in ages. I've been chuckling so much, I got boogers on my upper lip So whaddaya think Moose? Was Fearless Leader a twitchy conspirator, or just clueless?

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Post #: 197
RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/4/2010 3:53:06 AM   
Canoerebel


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I've been following this thread today with interest and especially appreciated two of Vettim's posts. He does a good job of laying out the absurdity of these beliefs.

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Post #: 198
RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/4/2010 3:55:51 AM   
vettim89


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

Wow, I haven't had this much fun reading a thread in ages. I've been chuckling so much, I got boogers on my upper lip So whaddaya think Moose? Was Fearless Leader a twitchy conspirator, or just clueless?



Moose: Hey Rocky, watch me pull a conspiracy theory out of my hat!
Squirrel: Not again
Moose: (pulls rabid porcupine from hat) Oops! Wrong hat!


_____________________________

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Post #: 199
RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/4/2010 4:03:23 AM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

Wow, I haven't had this much fun reading a thread in ages. I've been chuckling so much, I got boogers on my upper lip So whaddaya think Moose? Was Fearless Leader a twitchy conspirator, or just clueless?


Fearless Leader was always off-stage, as commies avoid the lime-light. He had Natasha do his talking for him. (Boris was occupied with his Naploleon Complex.)

FDR, OTOH, was a master politician, a great wartime leader, and had a very nice granddaughter.

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The Moose

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Post #: 200
RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/4/2010 4:08:45 AM   
witpqs


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From: Argleton
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

Wow, I haven't had this much fun reading a thread in ages. I've been chuckling so much, I got boogers on my upper lip So whaddaya think Moose? Was Fearless Leader a twitchy conspirator, or just clueless?


Final warning - that is sec level 5 info! Helicopters will be overhead shortly to explain it further!



(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 201
RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/4/2010 4:31:55 AM   
vettim89


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<slaps side of head in disgust>


Its all on page 47. I forgot all about page 47. That and the Freemasons

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Post #: 202
RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/4/2010 5:21:46 AM   
John 3rd


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I've been following this thread today with interest and especially appreciated two of Vettim's posts. He does a good job of laying out the absurdity of these beliefs.


Well said and I totally concur. As a Historian, some of the claims being made here are so out beyond the realm, I cannot believe people can still think like this.

There is no way Franklin Delano Roosevelt, former Assistant Secretary of the Navy, would have purposefully allowed a direct attack upon an American military base. PERIOD. The man loved the Navy and the Service. To think otherwise is a small step away from crazy.



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Post #: 203
RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/4/2010 9:35:11 AM   
LoBaron


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

Wow, I haven't had this much fun reading a thread in ages. I've been chuckling so much, I got boogers on my upper lip So whaddaya think Moose? Was Fearless Leader a twitchy conspirator, or just clueless?


I agree, high entertainment value.

@Phanatic:
The problem with most conspiracy theories is that they have to compete with alternative explanations, which have the unnerving ability to
be at least as plausible as conspiracy theory itself, without the need to rely on secondary/redundant/artificially created assumptions.

Okhams Razor applies to non-physical sciences too.


Anyway, I have come to really like this thread. After a couple of weeks theres always something new...



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Post #: 204
RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/4/2010 11:33:38 AM   
xj900uk

 

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I still hold true that FDR & his administration never ever set out to deliberately provoke the Japanese into war, if anything the US didn't fully understand the Japanese mind-set and they hoped that their actions (re the scrap metal and then oil embargos) would make Japan back down and start behaving itself rather than actign as a big 'bully boy' (Stimpson's own words) in S E Asia.
Whilst the politicians hoped for a backdown they did not discount the possibility of there being a war in S E Asia/PI (a la Orange) which the US would find itself embroiled into - witness the amount of secret communication back & forth between MacArthur's staff and Washington from the middle of '41 onwards and the amount of 'aid'/munitions/training going in to the PI in order to try and bring them up to a war footing. MacArthur was even directly asked when he thought the PI would be ready - he said March/April and Washington told him that this was the date they considered a state of war might be declared between IJ and the US, which is why the training/rearmament was accelerated. Also all the new B17's that were just coming into service (seen as the new wonder 'ship killers') were immediately earmarked for service in the PI.
All this points toa buildup in the PI again following the guidelines of the Orange Plan, although the possibility of a sneak attack was not being discounted. But this all shows the thinking of the US planners & strategists that it would come in the PI and not Hawaii...
Back in the 30's, somebody from the War Dept looked at the possiblity of PH and the Hawaiian islands being attacked (have to see if I can find his name in one of my books back home) and made several long detailed reports for Washington to read. They were completely discounted on the grounds that PH was 'the most up-to-date and defended naval base in the world'

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Post #: 205
RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/4/2010 1:28:51 PM   
Phanatik


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to Vettim89,

Your contributions to this thread have been less than stellar...

I find it amusing that you question the possiblity of the President being "bloodthirsty" and yet your tagline is:
"Kill Japs, Kill more Japs" - Adm. William F. Halsey I suppose it's okay for Admirals but not Presidents?

IF HOSTILITIES CANNOT REPEAT NOT BE AVOIDED THE UNITED STATES
DESIRES THAT JAPAN COMMIT THE FIRST OVERT ACT

That was sent several times to all commands. What do you suppose that means? If every other piece of conspiracy theory lore is wrong except that message, which is indisputable, it means the POTUS desired that SOME American base or ship SOMEwhere be attacked first. Do you suppose the POTUS believed that the first Japanese overt act would be to drop leaflets somewhere saying "Yankee go Home!?" How many American deaths do you think the POTUS would have accepted for the first overt act he desired? How many resulting American deaths until he's a monster with an evil plan, as you say? Probably not 1. 100? Perhaps the crews of two U.S. cruisers he wanted to send to provoke the Japanese. Now we're getting close to 1000. We are halfway to Pearl.

[Action D from McCollum's Eight Action Plan - "Popup Cruises" FDR - "I just want them to keep popping up here and there and keep the Japs guessing. I don't mind losing one or two cruisers, but do not take a chance on losing five or six."] Does someone become a monster somewhere between two and five cruisers?

Other parts of the message advising necessary cautions should be taken is nonsensical. If the President orders you to take one on the chin, you take one on the chin.

I don't know what you think or know about a President's cabinet and administration, but don't you suppose that after being in office for 13 years, FDR wouldn't have men around him that supported him and his views? You must have a really rose-colored view of the world.

As for heroes... as they say, the winners write the history books. General Sherman (a la March to the Sea fame) is considered by many to be a hero. He even got a tank named after him. But to many, he was a real ba$tardo that followed the orders of a President to conduct a campaign of terror against a defenseless populace (which went against centuries of acceptable behavior during wartime. Read: Total War) by raping and pillaging, burning homes leaving thousands to die from exposure, and killing prior confederate soldiers, some invalids, just because they were on the other side, on his way to the beach.

How about Joe Rochefort? Do you consider him a hero? Per Stinnett, in a post-war assessment of the attack Rochefort said "It was a pretty cheap price to pay for unifying the country." Is that bloodthirsty? Cold hearted? Unifying the country. That sounds like what FDR wanted to do to get into the war. Golly gee.

Cheers!

(in reply to xj900uk)
Post #: 206
RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/4/2010 1:53:09 PM   
treespider


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From: Edgewater, MD
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phanatik

to Vettim89,

Your contributions to this thread have been less than stellar...

I find it amusing that you question the possiblity of the President being "bloodthirsty" and yet your tagline is:
"Kill Japs, Kill more Japs" - Adm. William F. Halsey I suppose it's okay for Admirals but not Presidents?

IF HOSTILITIES CANNOT REPEAT NOT BE AVOIDED THE UNITED STATES
DESIRES THAT JAPAN COMMIT THE FIRST OVERT ACT

That was sent several times to all commands. What do you suppose that means? If every other piece of conspiracy theory lore is wrong except that message, which is indisputable, it means the POTUS desired that SOME American base or ship SOMEwhere be attacked first. Do you suppose the POTUS believed that the first Japanese overt act would be to drop leaflets somewhere saying "Yankee go Home!?" How many American deaths do you think the POTUS would have accepted for the first overt act he desired? How many resulting American deaths until he's a monster with an evil plan, as you say? Probably not 1. 100? Perhaps the crews of two U.S. cruisers he wanted to send to provoke the Japanese. Now we're getting close to 1000. We are halfway to Pearl.



So why then put the Pacific on a war footing at all? Orders were issued to that effect...Why not just leave the entire Pacific stood down?

quote:



[Action D from McCollum's Eight Action Plan - "Popup Cruises" FDR - "I just want them to keep popping up here and there and keep the Japs guessing. I don't mind losing one or two cruisers, but do not take a chance on losing five or six."] Does someone become a monster somewhere between two and five cruisers?

Other parts of the message advising necessary cautions should be taken is nonsensical. If the President orders you to take one on the chin, you take one on the chin.

I don't know what you think or know about a President's cabinet and administration, but don't you suppose that after being in office for 13 years, FDR wouldn't have men around him that supported him and his views? You must have a really rose-colored view of the world.


And working for the government...as I do...I can assure you that POTUS has not a clue what I am doing on a daily basis...and this is the 21st century...yet if I FUBAR a situation POTUS will get the blame....and conspiracy theory nut jobs will have a field day with it...

quote:



As for heroes... as they say, the winners write the history books. General Sherman (a la March to the Sea fame) is considered by many to be a hero. He even got a tank named after him. But to many, he was a real ba$tardo that followed the orders of a President to conduct a campaign of terror against a defenseless populace (which went against centuries of acceptable behavior during wartime. Read: Total War) by raping and pillaging, burning homes leaving thousands to die from exposure, and killing prior confederate soldiers, some invalids, just because they were on the other side, on his way to the beach.

How about Joe Rochefort? Do you consider him a hero? Per Stinnett, in a post-war assessment of the attack Rochefort said "It was a pretty cheap price to pay for unifying the country." Is that bloodthirsty? Cold hearted? Unifying the country. That sounds like what FDR wanted to do to get into the war. Golly gee.

Cheers!


Context...key phrase - "post-war assessment"

Considering the price that was paid during the war... the losses at PH were pretty cheap by comparison...so Rochefort in the 20-20 hindsight that 4 years of war provided was probably accurate in his "post-war assessment"...I'm sure in November and December 1941 no one could have predicted the losses at Tarawa, Pelilu, Iwo Jima or Okinawa...but then again hindsight is 20-20.


_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to Phanatik)
Post #: 207
RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/4/2010 1:59:34 PM   
Phanatik


Posts: 140
Joined: 10/22/2009
From: Nashville, Tn
Status: offline
to Tree:
The first overt act had to occur somewhere. Why have everything be surprised? Just one would do.

Again, we are not talking about the government. We are talking about the president's cabinet and administration. Surely the President knows what the SecNav is doing?

As to Rochefort, whose job is was to supply Kimmel with accurate information, we're not talking about hindsight. We are talking about the cost of getting us into the war, at what loss of life.

(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 208
RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/4/2010 2:23:45 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9786
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phanatik

to Tree:
The first overt act had to occur somewhere. Why have everything be surprised? Just one would do.

Again, we are not talking about the government. We are talking about the president's cabinet and administration. Surely the President knows what the SecNav is doing?


And what did the SecNav do? Orders were issued putting the Pacific on a war footing...

quote:



As to Rochefort, whose job is was to supply Kimmel with accurate information, we're not talking about hindsight. We are talking about the cost of getting us into the war, at what loss of life.


Your reference to Rochefort was per Stinnet and it was in reference to a "post-war assessment"...

So is there a document somewhere from say November 1941 in which Rochefort is quoted as saying "What a small price to pay if Pearl harbor were attacked?" - No.

The quote is based on Rochfort's hindsight of what transpired over the 4 years following the Pearl Harbor attack which made the losses at Pearl pale by comparison.

---

Well enuff from me... can't believe I got sucked into this pig sty...you can believe what you want.




_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to Phanatik)
Post #: 209
RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/4/2010 2:39:45 PM   
Historiker


Posts: 4738
Joined: 7/4/2007
From: Deutschland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE


quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker
quote:

I mean je ne sais quoi is just an aftershave, yeah?

I guess you'll have to prepare yourself better for Tahiti, my friend

Ah, Torsten, my friend; you truly understand, don't you? I knew you would get it.

btw, it's not Tahiti. It is in French Polynesia, but it's in lles Marquises. Way far even from Taiohae, down around between Mohotani and Fatu Hiva.

There's some french left from school...
Doesn't matter where it is exactly - as long as there's a bed and a nice beach for me when I visit you

_____________________________

Without any doubt: I am the spawn of evil - and the Bavarian Beer Monster (BBM)!

There's only one bad word and that's taxes. If any other word is good enough for sailors; it's good enough for you. - Ron Swanson

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 210
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