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Auto Sub Ops - I hates it

 
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Auto Sub Ops - I hates it - 7/26/2010 11:49:44 AM   
spence

 

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From: vermont
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So I started a PBEM without insisting that my IJ OPP set the Auto Sub button to OFF. There are now a few problems and some questions.

1) Is is possible for the IJ Player to reset the button to OFF and have that take effect for the rest of the game?

2) Is there any way to prevent an undamaged (Allied) sub from immediately sailing on a patrol once it has replenished?

3) Particularly galling in this respect are the submarines which are due an for upgrade but sail off without getting it. Wouldn't it be nice for ADM. CINCSUBPAC to be able to say to the sub skipper "Take your ship to the yard, Captain. (If you're restless go on a bender with the men)" A button that allows the Player to put the ship in "stood down" status even when it has no damage would be great.

4) Why is it that submarines which are not homeported in Pearl Harbor always seem to go on patrol in the neighbor's bathtub or some other completely useless location?

3)

Post #: 1
RE: Auto Sub Ops - I hates it - 7/26/2010 1:41:17 PM   
wild_Willie2


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4) Why is it that submarines which are not homeported in Pearl Harbor always seem to go on patrol in the neighbor's bathtub or some other completely useless location?


ditto

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RE: Auto Sub Ops - I hates it - 7/26/2010 3:44:26 PM   
RevRick


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Handling Sup Ops in the game manually is a absolutely unqualified advertisement for a case of Preparation-H. However, auto Sub Ops will cause a distinct feeling of needing the professional ministrations of a proctologist.

What I find really interesting is the IJN subs set to patrol that always busy convoy route between Nome and Anchorage. At other times, I am particularly impressed with the IJN sub driver who shows up southeast of Pago Pago, who seems to have the best lookouts in the IJ Navy, and an endless supply of torpedoes. EGAD!!!

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RE: Auto Sub Ops - I hates it - 7/26/2010 4:12:09 PM   
The Gnome


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The auto Auto-sub routine definitely needs some TLC. I every minor japanese base blockaded while the home islands have maybe 2 subs assigned.

I've seen all the above behavior, as well as a couple more:

1) Auto-Subs should move to more forward bases when available, I've been moving them myself, but it's slow.
2) Should return to a rear base when a withdrawal date nears.
3) Place a higher weighting for blockading major bases like the home islands, DEI, and Truk.

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RE: Auto Sub Ops - I hates it - 7/26/2010 4:56:52 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RevRick

Handling Sup Ops in the game manually is a absolutely unqualified advertisement for a case of Preparation-H. However, auto Sub Ops will cause a distinct feeling of needing the professional ministrations of a proctologist.


I love setting up sub patrols and trying new tactics. I feel as you say about setting CAP, spinning altitudes, and most everyting airplane related. Different strokes . . .

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RE: Auto Sub Ops - I hates it - 7/26/2010 7:01:21 PM   
The Gnome


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I think a lot of problems with patrol zones for subs is tying them to individual subs. I'd like to set up a series of patrol zones and then the number of subs I want the AI to try and keep in there.

I'm waiting patiently for Joe Wilkerson to throw a tomato at me :D

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RE: Auto Sub Ops - I hates it - 7/26/2010 8:43:36 PM   
bjmorgan


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I've often wished that the auto subops routines had defaults that could be set. One could, for example, set up a number of player created "zones" in which the auto routine could try to keep some player-designeted number of subs on patrol. It could also have SOP amounts of damage that force a sub to head for home. I've seen subs with very heavy damage still on patrol, some to the point of almost sinking before heading in. It would also be nice to specify what types of ships should be targeted in some kind of priority. So, one could concentrate on CVs, AOs, TKs, in that order, then other transports, then other warships, or something. Pwersonally I would like to try alternate strategies like seeing what happens if the escorts can all be taken out early in the war so that when the IJN uses up its resource stockpiles, the transports will be largely unescorted, or lightly escorted.

These are just ideas off the top of my head, but it seems that in a game where we can worry about LT Jones' mental health in the 51st Pursuit Squadron, it's odd that we cannot control what our subs target to any extent at all. I realize that this is a LOT of programming, so maybe it's better left to the next WITP. (WITPUE -- The WITP Ultimate Edition)

Also, this is NOT a criticism of the game at all. It's a wonderful piece of work and very enjoyable as is. But, I can dream, can't I?

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RE: Auto Sub Ops - I hates it - 7/26/2010 9:26:37 PM   
spence

 

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Since no one even acknowledged question #1, 2 or 3 it seems the answer is no, no and "Tough $tuf" respectively.

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RE: Auto Sub Ops - I hates it - 7/27/2010 12:30:11 AM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: The Gnome

I think a lot of problems with patrol zones for subs is tying them to individual subs. I'd like to set up a series of patrol zones and then the number of subs I want the AI to try and keep in there.

I'm waiting patiently for Joe Wilkerson to throw a tomato at me :D


Bowling ball maybe . . .

If you can, go back and play a week of WITP and then come on back. Patrol zones were a gift that changed that third of the game to something really "playable." Your sugestion would need thousands of lines of code, and then what? Patrol zones in mid-1942 look nothing like those of mid-1944. You'd have to constantly re-draw them. You'd still need to detail subs into the boxes. What about classes? Do you need to segregate S-boats out by hand? What about repairs? Do you need to set breaks? Do you need to pre-set shipyard versus pierside?

Do all that and in the long run the current system is no more work, and much more controllable. I played my first game with auto-sub, but I grabbed probably 20% of the patrols and re-did the zones. The AI makes very tight (3-hexes often) zones, and I want my guys to roam and hunt, and keep the DL down. This game I'm doing everything manual and like it better. But the auto-sub routines are great . . . compared to WITP. And at-least-no-worse-than-WITP was the design promise.

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RE: Auto Sub Ops - I hates it - 7/27/2010 12:33:13 AM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

Since no one even acknowledged question #1, 2 or 3 it seems the answer is no, no and "Tough $tuf" respectively.


The answer to #2 is "grab it in port, put it in a TF, and anchor it to the pier." There's no way to do that days ahead though, but then there's no way to do much of anything days ahead, skimmers or airplanes too. Just filter the ships view to "SS", sort by name, damage, whatever each turn, and make your moves.

The answer to #3 is, set the upgrade button to "yes" and Auto-Disband to "on", and send it to the selected upgrade yard once the upgrade date is reached. It'll upgrade. To expect the AI to know you plan to upgrade in three weeks, and to keep the boat hanging around, when you told it elsewhere to Auto-Sub Op the game, is a bit unrealistic don't you think?

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 7/27/2010 12:38:51 AM >


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RE: Auto Sub Ops - I hates it - 7/27/2010 6:19:24 AM   
topeverest

 

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Spence,

Oh contraire! The last thing I want to do is manage every sub under my command. I find the auto sub opps to be very effective. It is well worth the tradeoff of doing most of them myself. While I wish I was, I find I am not better than the AI PZ routines. The Patrol Zones are well thought out.

Point 2 & 3 are annoying, I must admit, but if you watch them, those problems are managable.

Point 4 - If you have a PZ that you know is wrong, a gentle touch by manaully sending the sub to the new home port and general patrol zone. Switch to AI when you get to the location, and it is solved.

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RE: Auto Sub Ops - I hates it - 7/30/2010 11:43:59 AM   
spence

 

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Thank you Bullwinkle for the mention of the Auto-disband button. I had never used it before and thus forgotten entirely about it. Turning on Auto-disband does seem to cause my subs to go get an upgrade when they are due (or overdue).

I'm playing PBEM with 2 day turns and this was my biggest complaint since otherwise it seemed the subs invariably entered port during the first day and sailed on the second without an opportunity for me to intervene.

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RE: Auto Sub Ops - I hates it - 7/30/2010 4:37:43 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

Thank you Bullwinkle for the mention of the Auto-disband button. I had never used it before and thus forgotten entirely about it. Turning on Auto-disband does seem to cause my subs to go get an upgrade when they are due (or overdue).



Hey, no problem. I publicly admitted that I had never seen the "Form New TF" button on the TF screen after I'd been playing the game for a year. I'm finding it's highly useful for bolluxing the AI's naval air strike routines (One targetted TF becomes five; can't hit 'em all!)

Auto-disband can get you on the withdrawls if you're not careful though. Once you A-D, you're telling the AI the sub is its to play with, and it will send subs due to withdraw right back on patrol. There aren't very many, most are in the later game, but subs are so long range that you can eat up a lot of PPs moving one back from the HI to withdraw. Weeks worth.

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RE: Auto Sub Ops - I hates it - 7/30/2010 6:10:44 PM   
Knavey

 

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Pretty sure the setting cannot be changed after the game has started...which has caused me FRUSTRATION as well.

My tactic is to use the TF monitoring screen and only look at the subs. There you can see if they are computer controlled or not. If one pops up as computer controlled, I move it to a Human controlled and then merge with the permanent TF that is at PH. If they are in the TF, they don't go anywhere.

Best I can do to help out.



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RE: Auto Sub Ops - I hates it - 7/30/2010 7:08:54 PM   
crsutton


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Yes, I very much wish I could turn it off but you are stuck with it once the game is started.

Here is what I do. Once a week check your subs. Locate any computer controlled subs and turn it to human. (Remember, any comptuter controlled sub has it's reaction range set to zero. Reset it to 1) If you return a human controled sub to port it will not disband unless you have it set to auto disband. Never set them to auto disband as the computer will take over and send them back out.

So then you have to check your subs and keep track of them. If they are at a port and need some repairs disband them and move them to pierside or shipyard and they will do so. As soon as they are repaired the computer will take them over and send them out so you have to keep track of them-(pain in the butt). If you need to upgrade a sub do the same as above. However, the sub must have at least one point of damage somewhere in order to move it to pierside or shipyard. Once in the yard, the sub will automatically upgrade if the button is set to yes, and you are good to go.

However, if you return a sub to port and it has no damage of any kind. The computer will send it back out and not do the upgrade. So if you get to port and can't disband to the yard due to no damage. Just set the sub on full speed and send it out for a quick run of about six hexes at full speed. It will usually come back to port with some sys damage and you can then disband, move it to the yard and it will repair and automatically upgrade.

This is the solution I have found. There may be better. I pray that they change it so I can turn the whole thing off.. If you are starting a game "do not" select computer control of subs as an option......

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RE: Auto Sub Ops - I hates it - 7/31/2010 1:18:51 AM   
Don Bowen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: The Gnome

The auto Auto-sub routine definitely needs some TLC. I every minor japanese base blockaded while the home islands have maybe 2 subs assigned.

I've seen all the above behavior, as well as a couple more:

1) Auto-Subs should move to more forward bases when available, I've been moving them myself, but it's slow.
2) Should return to a rear base when a withdrawal date nears.
3) Place a higher weighting for blockading major bases like the home islands, DEI, and Truk.


1. They do.
2. No, that is not a decision the computer can make for you.
3. It's port size, not specific port, that determines how badly auto=subs wants to "blockade" the port.

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RE: Auto Sub Ops - I hates it - 7/31/2010 5:19:27 AM   
The Gnome


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


quote:

ORIGINAL: The Gnome

The auto Auto-sub routine definitely needs some TLC. I every minor japanese base blockaded while the home islands have maybe 2 subs assigned.

I've seen all the above behavior, as well as a couple more:

1) Auto-Subs should move to more forward bases when available, I've been moving them myself, but it's slow.
2) Should return to a rear base when a withdrawal date nears.
3) Place a higher weighting for blockading major bases like the home islands, DEI, and Truk.


1. They do.
2. No, that is not a decision the computer can make for you.
3. It's port size, not specific port, that determines how badly auto=subs wants to "blockade" the port.


Hey Don, thanks for the clarifications, but:
1) Not in my game, they accumulate in PH mostly, and I have to manually move them there from off map bases.
2) Reasonable I guess
3) Good to know. I have a huge number of subs sitting off of friendly bases as well, is that intentional?

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Post #: 17
RE: Auto Sub Ops - I hates it - 7/31/2010 2:21:49 PM   
Don Bowen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: The Gnome

.....
3) Good to know. I have a huge number of subs sitting off of friendly bases as well, is that intentional?


Yes. Auto sub ops divides available subs into two groups based on range: offensive patrol and defensive patrol. Range for this decision starts low, increases over time. So the US old-S classes start as offensive but slip into defensive in a couple of years.

Offensive subs are moved forward if necessary and assigned patrols off enemy bases and also a few known choke points. Defensive patrols are off friendly bases. Targets are selected based on port size, number of subs already patroling in the area, range from home port of patroling sub, and a couple of other minor criteria that don't spring to mind. Defensive patrols at rear area bases sorta-kinda emulate training missions.

Subs will move forward to large bases with plenty of fuel. They can also move forward to smaller bases with sub tenders. Choke points are pre-coded based on the map. One of the few places where we had to de-generalize in order to get a function to work properly.


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