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What's new for TOAW 3.4

 
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What's new for TOAW 3.4 - 7/26/2010 4:44:59 AM   
JAMiAM

 

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Hi all,

I know it's been forever in coming, but patch 3.4 is right around the bend, and we thought we'd tease you a bit more with the change list. The attached file is a zipped copy of the whatsnew.pdf for the upcoming patch. Enjoy.

Attachment (1)
Post #: 1
RE: What's new for TOAW 3.4 - 7/26/2010 6:53:36 AM   
Veers


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Hallelujah!!

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Post #: 2
RE: What's new for TOAW 3.4 - 7/26/2010 8:27:20 AM   
Silvanski


Posts: 2188
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Veers

Hallelujah!!

looks like someone found religion

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TOAW Retrofit Dude

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Post #: 3
RE: What's new for TOAW 3.4 - 7/26/2010 2:59:05 PM   
Panama


Posts: 1362
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silvanski


quote:

ORIGINAL: Veers

Hallelujah!!

looks like someone found religion


It was lost?

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Post #: 4
RE: What's new for TOAW 3.4 - 7/26/2010 3:40:50 PM   
cantona2


Posts: 3466
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PS the changes look great, eagerly anticipating this patch!
Will the new graphics mod come with the patch or will that be a separate DL?

< Message edited by cantona2 -- 7/26/2010 3:45:41 PM >


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Post #: 5
RE: What's new for TOAW 3.4 - 7/26/2010 4:27:29 PM   
Panama


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Ok, here we go with the questions.

First off, IMO, supply rules look to be about as good as you can get them with the game without rewriting the whole thing. Great job.

I'm a bit confused about the new AR combat rules. Some examples would go a long way towards clearing the fog. Speak to me as if I were a child.

(in reply to cantona2)
Post #: 6
RE: What's new for TOAW 3.4 - 7/26/2010 5:22:56 PM   
Telumar


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Another question: Can the new supply rules and the new player turn rules be applied to ongoing PBEM games which have been started under 3.2?

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Post #: 7
RE: What's new for TOAW 3.4 - 7/26/2010 9:42:12 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 7182
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

Hi all,

I know it's been forever in coming, but patch 3.4 is right around the bend, and we thought we'd tease you a bit more with the change list. The attached file is a zipped copy of the whatsnew.pdf for the upcoming patch. Enjoy.


Thanks, James!

(in reply to JAMiAM)
Post #: 8
RE: What's new for TOAW 3.4 - 7/26/2010 9:44:39 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 7182
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: cantona2



PS the changes look great, eagerly anticipating this patch!
Will the new graphics mod come with the patch or will that be a separate DL?


We intend for them to be included in the patch. But, it isn't built yet, so I can't guarantee it.

(in reply to cantona2)
Post #: 9
RE: What's new for TOAW 3.4 - 7/26/2010 9:55:10 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 7182
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Panama

Ok, here we go with the questions.

First off, IMO, supply rules look to be about as good as you can get them with the game without rewriting the whole thing. Great job.

I'm a bit confused about the new AR combat rules. Some examples would go a long way towards clearing the fog. Speak to me as if I were a child.


It depends upon the AR value, which is displayed in the Attack Planner (subject to Fog-of-War).

If the AR is >= 100, attacks will work just like before. (That means the ground component of the attack is at least as strong as the ground component of the defenders).

If the AR is < 100, but >= 10, there is a proportional chance that the attack could lose the artillery benefits previously accrued by artillery that supports an attack (it would have the strength of artillery that just bombards). And the defender's supply costs are divided by 10.

If the AR is < 10, there is a proportional chance that the attack could be reduced to a pure bombardment - ground component canceled and no supply cost to the defender. The attacker's artillery can even be subject to counterbattery.

So, players are motivated to try to keep the AR >= to 100. That means ant-unit tactics won't work anymore (we hope).

That's really all you need to know: Keep the AR at or above 100.

(in reply to Panama)
Post #: 10
RE: What's new for TOAW 3.4 - 7/26/2010 9:56:45 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 7182
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From: Houston, TX
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Telumar

Another question: Can the new supply rules and the new player turn rules be applied to ongoing PBEM games which have been started under 3.2?


Ongoing games can be switched to 3.4. But I don't think you can change the supply or turn rules during the game.

Edit: For PBEM. For hotseat or vs. the PO, you can.

< Message edited by Curtis Lemay -- 7/26/2010 9:57:06 PM >

(in reply to Telumar)
Post #: 11
RE: What's new for TOAW 3.4 - 7/26/2010 10:05:36 PM   
Telumar


Posts: 2057
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: niflheim
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: Telumar

Another question: Can the new supply rules and the new player turn rules be applied to ongoing PBEM games which have been started under 3.2?


Ongoing games can be switched to 3.4. But I don't think you can change the supply or turn rules during the game.

Edit: For PBEM. For hotseat or vs. the PO, you can.


What i thought. Thanks Bob.

_____________________________


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Post #: 12
RE: What's new for TOAW 3.4 - 7/26/2010 10:32:15 PM   
Telumar


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.. another question about the new combined terrain/deployment defensive strength multiplier. In the What's new document there's a chart about infantry and vehicle defense strength.
But this also applies to defensive AP and AT strengths, doesn't it?

_____________________________


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Post #: 13
RE: What's new for TOAW 3.4 - 7/26/2010 11:34:09 PM   
Panama


Posts: 1362
Joined: 10/30/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: Panama

Ok, here we go with the questions.

First off, IMO, supply rules look to be about as good as you can get them with the game without rewriting the whole thing. Great job.

I'm a bit confused about the new AR combat rules. Some examples would go a long way towards clearing the fog. Speak to me as if I were a child.


It depends upon the AR value, which is displayed in the Attack Planner (subject to Fog-of-War).

If the AR is >= 100, attacks will work just like before. (That means the ground component of the attack is at least as strong as the ground component of the defenders).

If the AR is < 100, but >= 10, there is a proportional chance that the attack could lose the artillery benefits previously accrued by artillery that supports an attack (it would have the strength of artillery that just bombards). And the defender's supply costs are divided by 10.

If the AR is < 10, there is a proportional chance that the attack could be reduced to a pure bombardment - ground component canceled and no supply cost to the defender. The attacker's artillery can even be subject to counterbattery.

So, players are motivated to try to keep the AR >= to 100. That means ant-unit tactics won't work anymore (we hope).

That's really all you need to know: Keep the AR at or above 100.


Is it really that simple? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something but, it seems as though I'm being told that I should always attack at 1 to 1 or better with only raw unit strengths being the qualifier. Supply, readiness and proficiency are thrown out. If I don't do this I stand to suffer penalties. Is that an incorrect assumption?

As a side note, much of the fighting in the East in 1941 was pretty much regiments vs divisions. Would that be a problem?

BTW, the new RBC escape clause? Great. Very badly needed.

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 14
RE: What's new for TOAW 3.4 - 7/27/2010 2:06:40 AM   
JAMiAM

 

Posts: 6149
Joined: 2/8/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panama


Is it really that simple? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something but, it seems as though I'm being told that I should always attack at 1 to 1 or better with only raw unit strengths being the qualifier. Supply, readiness and proficiency are thrown out. If I don't do this I stand to suffer penalties. Is that an incorrect assumption?


To answer the bolded portion of your questions. This is incorrect. Supply, readiness and proficiency direct affect the attack and defense strengths of units. So, these still factor into the AR ratios and calculations. What is essentially happening is that a test is being made between the relative *effective* strengths of the active equipment and the outcome of that test is determining multiple effects regarding the bombardment strengths involved in the combat. Poor AR ratios will result in supported bombardments being much less effective than previously, in terms of losses taken, as well as supply usage.

In other words, we're spoiling the spoiling attacks that players became spoiled using...


quote:

ORIGINAL: Panama


As a side note, much of the fighting in the East in 1941 was pretty much regiments vs divisions. Would that be a problem?


Not necessarily. Keep in mind, again, that the effective strengths of units are essentially determined by equipment modified by readiness, proficiency, and supply. The exact combat strength formula is in the manual's appendices. So, in cases where smaller, well supplied, highly proficient, high readiness units are in combat with a larger poorly supplied, low proficiency, low readiness unit, then you're often dealing with fairly equal effective combat strengths.

Hope that helps.

(in reply to Panama)
Post #: 15
RE: What's new for TOAW 3.4 - 7/27/2010 2:16:59 AM   
Champagne


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Please excuse if this is an elementary or repetitive question:

Not all of the existing scenarios have been recently tweaked with a view to be working with TOAW 3.4. This is no problem. I'm please to see that so many have been tweaked.

How will 3.4 affect those existing scenarios that have not been tweaked? Will these scenarios be very different under 3.4 then are now?

Thanks.

_____________________________

Only the dead have seen the end of War.

-- Plato

(in reply to JAMiAM)
Post #: 16
RE: What's new for TOAW 3.4 - 7/27/2010 2:41:50 AM   
JAMiAM

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Champagne

How will 3.4 affect those existing scenarios that have not been tweaked? Will these scenarios be very different under 3.4 then are now?



My favorite answer..."it depends"...

The changes are evolutionary - not revolutionary. The difference will vary depending not only upon the nature of the scenario units TO&E, but also, in no small part, on the play styles of the people playing the game.

If you're the type of person who previously took a great deal of effort in 'gaming the system', then you may find that your ant-bombardment tactics are not very effective anymore, leading to a wastage of your play time, not to mention potentially combat rounds, too.

If you're the type of person who used less labor-intensive, but more generally 'standard' tactics, of putting the right numbers of equipment types against a certain number and type of defenders, took into account terrain, support levels, et cetera, then you will likely see some improvement in your results.

(in reply to Champagne)
Post #: 17
RE: What's new for TOAW 3.4 - 7/27/2010 4:20:36 AM   
Panama


Posts: 1362
Joined: 10/30/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM


quote:

ORIGINAL: Panama


Is it really that simple? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something but, it seems as though I'm being told that I should always attack at 1 to 1 or better with only raw unit strengths being the qualifier. Supply, readiness and proficiency are thrown out. If I don't do this I stand to suffer penalties. Is that an incorrect assumption?


To answer the bolded portion of your questions. This is incorrect. Supply, readiness and proficiency direct affect the attack and defense strengths of units. So, these still factor into the AR ratios and calculations. What is essentially happening is that a test is being made between the relative *effective* strengths of the active equipment and the outcome of that test is determining multiple effects regarding the bombardment strengths involved in the combat. Poor AR ratios will result in supported bombardments being much less effective than previously, in terms of losses taken, as well as supply usage.

In other words, we're spoiling the spoiling attacks that players became spoiled using...


quote:

ORIGINAL: Panama


As a side note, much of the fighting in the East in 1941 was pretty much regiments vs divisions. Would that be a problem?


Not necessarily. Keep in mind, again, that the effective strengths of units are essentially determined by equipment modified by readiness, proficiency, and supply. The exact combat strength formula is in the manual's appendices. So, in cases where smaller, well supplied, highly proficient, high readiness units are in combat with a larger poorly supplied, low proficiency, low readiness unit, then you're often dealing with fairly equal effective combat strengths.

Hope that helps.


Yes, big help. Many thanks.

(in reply to JAMiAM)
Post #: 18
RE: What's new for TOAW 3.4 - 7/27/2010 7:32:13 AM   
SMK-at-work

 

Posts: 3252
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From: New Zealand
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I just wanna say

I recognise the turn sequence & I think the supply mods from discussions a couple of years ago.

TY, TY, TYVM

< Message edited by SMK-at-work -- 7/27/2010 7:33:08 AM >

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Post #: 19
RE: What's new for TOAW 3.4 - 7/27/2010 2:56:29 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 7182
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Telumar

.. another question about the new combined terrain/deployment defensive strength multiplier. In the What's new document there's a chart about infantry and vehicle defense strength.
But this also applies to defensive AP and AT strengths, doesn't it?


Hmm. I don't know about AT strengths. Good question.

Edit: I think armored vehicles benefit from the vehicle defense multiplier only. The statement in the manual about anti-armor defense strength multipliers is incorrect, if I remember correctly. But my memory is kind of vague about it.

< Message edited by Curtis Lemay -- 7/27/2010 2:58:57 PM >

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Post #: 20
RE: What's new for TOAW 3.4 - 7/27/2010 3:11:01 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 7182
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM


quote:

ORIGINAL: Panama


Is it really that simple? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something but, it seems as though I'm being told that I should always attack at 1 to 1 or better with only raw unit strengths being the qualifier. Supply, readiness and proficiency are thrown out. If I don't do this I stand to suffer penalties. Is that an incorrect assumption?


To answer the bolded portion of your questions. This is incorrect. Supply, readiness and proficiency direct affect the attack and defense strengths of units. So, these still factor into the AR ratios and calculations. What is essentially happening is that a test is being made between the relative *effective* strengths of the active equipment and the outcome of that test is determining multiple effects regarding the bombardment strengths involved in the combat. Poor AR ratios will result in supported bombardments being much less effective than previously, in terms of losses taken, as well as supply usage.

In other words, we're spoiling the spoiling attacks that players became spoiled using...


Jam is correct. But note that terrain and deployment defense multipliers are thrown out. As are all passive equipment. Finally, the attack strength used is a combination of the attacker's AP and AT strengths in proportion to the fractions of the defense strength attributable to armored and unarmored defense strengths (this is the same process used for RBCs).

But, more important is that this is just to determine the AR and thereby what set of benefits are received. When combat is then actually resolved, all equipment and factors are employed as before.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Panama


As a side note, much of the fighting in the East in 1941 was pretty much regiments vs divisions. Would that be a problem?


Not necessarily. Keep in mind, again, that the effective strengths of units are essentially determined by equipment modified by readiness, proficiency, and supply. The exact combat strength formula is in the manual's appendices. So, in cases where smaller, well supplied, highly proficient, high readiness units are in combat with a larger poorly supplied, low proficiency, low readiness unit, then you're often dealing with fairly equal effective combat strengths.

Hope that helps.


Exactly. Strengths are what matters.

(in reply to JAMiAM)
Post #: 21
RE: What's new for TOAW 3.4 - 7/27/2010 3:17:05 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 7182
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Champagne

Please excuse if this is an elementary or repetitive question:

Not all of the existing scenarios have been recently tweaked with a view to be working with TOAW 3.4. This is no problem. I'm please to see that so many have been tweaked.

How will 3.4 affect those existing scenarios that have not been tweaked? Will these scenarios be very different under 3.4 then are now?

Thanks.


There's no question that terrain will be more effective than before. No scenario, including those included with the update have been "tweaked" for that.

Somewhat countering that, tiny defenses will be easier to overcome.

We'll just have to see how things work out. Regardless, both changes are for the better in the long run.

(in reply to Champagne)
Post #: 22
RE: What's new for TOAW 3.4 - 7/27/2010 3:54:43 PM   
Telumar


Posts: 2057
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: niflheim
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: Telumar

.. another question about the new combined terrain/deployment defensive strength multiplier. In the What's new document there's a chart about infantry and vehicle defense strength.
But this also applies to defensive AP and AT strengths, doesn't it?


Hmm. I don't know about AT strengths. Good question.

Edit: I think armored vehicles benefit from the vehicle defense multiplier only. The statement in the manual about anti-armor defense strength multipliers is incorrect, if I remember correctly. But my memory is kind of vague about it.




Bob, that's a non-trivial matter. So, you say there are no defence multipliers for AT strengths or are those from the manual just incorrect? Defnsive AP strehgths are applied and correctly documented by the manual and subject to the new combined deploym./terrain rules?

Maybe James can answer that question though it seems that he's been (willingly ;) ) missing the question...

_____________________________


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Post #: 23
RE: What's new for TOAW 3.4 - 7/27/2010 10:32:24 PM   
Champagne


Posts: 218
Joined: 9/28/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM


quote:

ORIGINAL: Champagne

How will 3.4 affect those existing scenarios that have not been tweaked? Will these scenarios be very different under 3.4 then are now?



My favorite answer..."it depends"...

The changes are evolutionary - not revolutionary. The difference will vary depending not only upon the nature of the scenario units TO&E, but also, in no small part, on the play styles of the people playing the game.

If you're the type of person who previously took a great deal of effort in 'gaming the system', then you may find that your ant-bombardment tactics are not very effective anymore, leading to a wastage of your play time, not to mention potentially combat rounds, too.

If you're the type of person who used less labor-intensive, but more generally 'standard' tactics, of putting the right numbers of equipment types against a certain number and type of defenders, took into account terrain, support levels, et cetera, then you will likely see some improvement in your results.



Thank you, James. I'm very, very excited about this new version. I bought the original 1998 version of TOAW when it first came out, but, I never became a regular player. I intend to change that now, especially in light of the fact that the game is still being lovingly developed and refined.

_____________________________

Only the dead have seen the end of War.

-- Plato

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Post #: 24
RE: What's new for TOAW 3.4 - 7/27/2010 11:06:33 PM   
stone10


Posts: 240
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Is the new patch available for us to download now?

(in reply to Champagne)
Post #: 25
RE: What's new for TOAW 3.4 - 7/27/2010 11:58:20 PM   
Jeff Norton


Posts: 2043
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From: MD, USA (You're not cleared for specifics...)
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Stone,

No, not yet. But, soon....

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Post #: 26
RE: What's new for TOAW 3.4 - 7/28/2010 3:00:32 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 7182
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Telumar



Bob, that's a non-trivial matter. So, you say there are no defence multipliers for AT strengths or are those from the manual just incorrect?


I'm working from memory here, so take that into consideration. But, I think my source was Ralph. I suggested reducing those factors (per the wishlist) and he said he checked the code and there were no such multipliers of AT strengths - that the manual was wrong.

That's not the same as a test, of course. And that gets the final say.

quote:

Defnsive AP strehgths are applied and correctly documented by the manual and subject to the new combined deploym./terrain rules


I think it's just defense strengths that are affected by the new rule. And I can't say one way or the other about the AP strength multipliers rule in the manual.

(in reply to Telumar)
Post #: 27
RE: What's new for TOAW 3.4 - 7/28/2010 5:18:08 PM   
Menschenfresser

 

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On the surface, it sounds like a net gain for defenders between the ant countermeasures and the P1/P2 equalizations (given that most scenarios put the overall defender as P2). Which, if so, should be a plus for most scenarios out there. But only time will tell.

Excellent work to all involved. Tip of the hat.

_____________________________

I'm bored.

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Post #: 28
RE: What's new for TOAW 3.4 - 7/28/2010 7:42:19 PM   
LOK_32MK

 

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Than you to everyone involved. No matter how many other games I have tried, TOAW is the one game I always come back to. I have been playing it since TOAW I came out.
Thanks again to Ralph, Curtis, Jamiam and everyone else who made this a reality.


(in reply to Menschenfresser)
Post #: 29
RE: What's new for TOAW 3.4 - 8/3/2010 3:16:46 PM   
shunwick


Posts: 1789
Joined: 10/15/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

Hi all,

I know it's been forever in coming, but patch 3.4 is right around the bend


James,

I used to have a car like that.

Best wishes,
Steve

(in reply to JAMiAM)
Post #: 30
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