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RE: Road to Leningrad AAR (for Beginners)

 
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RE: Road to Leningrad AAR (for Beginners) - 7/20/2010 12:36:08 AM   
Sabre21


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

What does capturing Estonia quickly achieve? Soviet units will withdraw when pressured, Soviet casualties will probably be not all that high (compared to the fighting on other fronts, just like in real life) and the Soviet player knows exactly where you're going: Leningrad. Giving the impression that you're advancing on multiple fronts, without knowing where the blow will fall, might convince the Soviet player to keep some forces in Estonia (inland Estonia that is, not in ports waiting for the Baltic Fleet Taxi Service).

Aside from VP's for Tallinn, the Germans won't gain much if they capture Estonia, say, two turns earlier than in a scenario where the infantry clears the place without tank support.

For the Soviets, it's all about delaying the German arrival at the gates of Leningrad, and they can't really afford to leave approaches unexposed. Attacking slowly also has a psychological effect: many people are reluctant to abandon territory they control, even if it has zero strategic value or holding it actually poses a threat to their own war effort. The Germans have more mobility than the Soviets, and one good way of making use of that is by being everywhere at the same time from the Soviet perspective, whilst in reality they're pushing through a single sector.

If the Soviets are fighting at a place that isn't Leningrad or close to it, and are not inflicting noticeable losses on the Germans in the process, whilst the Germans are advancing elsewhere, the Soviets are doing something wrong.

It will be interesting to see how the AI would respond to a slow and methodical walk through Estonia. Personally, as the Soviets I'd probably strip the Baltic states of anything useful aside from a significant quantity of blocking and delaying units and form a wide layer of rings around Leningrad. In this scenario, Tallinn's VP's might be significant too, so it might be worth forming a ring around Tallinn too (which is easier than it would be for most other cities, as it can only be attacked from four surrounding hexes instead of six).



You hit the nail on the head about delay, it is very important for the Soviets to delay and for the Germans to push hard. I've tried about every angle of attacking the Leningrad area and there are basically 4 approaches. All 4 have their pros and cons. I tend to use one or more depending on how the situation develops. Heading north to Narva, especially with armor, puts a threat real close to Leningrad and can yield some quick rewards if the soviets aren't expecting it. If that area is not defended in depth, Leningrad will fall quick.

Same with the land bridge between the 2 lakes. Even though there is swamp there, a panzer corps that gets thru there can compromise the entire Pskov defense line further south and cut off the defenses along the Narva.

Another option is to go right to Pskov or near there and force that route. That tends to be the most common approach.

The last approach that works well for me is to divert the panzers down towards Velikie Luki linking up with panzers from AGC. This can really wreck havoc with the center defenses but then I turn 4th P north on the east bank of the Dvina and come up behind Pskov and then choose to either continue north or northeast.

Andy

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RE: Road to Leningrad AAR (for Beginners) - 7/20/2010 11:37:46 AM   
von Jaeger


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This is a really useful discussion.   I plan to push wider on the Eastern flank, but only as far as Novgorod (your junction South of Lake Ilmen, Pieter, looks to be a very good spot for an ID to hold this long flank, but I am not planning on going any further East).  

Jon, I will clear Estonia  just as quickly as I can (and take Tallinn by storm -that's what Model's reinforced Corps is mustering for down by Riga),  but I was planning to use 18th army to do that, not my armour.   But maybe I can spare a division or two to help do it more quickly?!   The logic of losing an entire flank, and using the coast for that job instead of my precious landser, is inescapable for me.  

I also planned to slip some armour through the marshes, as you suggest Andy, to support the main drive of Tot and 8th Pz from Pskov.   (Does driving through marsh or rough country increase the chance of mechanical breakdown attrition, do you know?   No point arriving on time with no tanks!)

More this evening
Stuart

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RE: Road to Leningrad AAR (for Beginners) - 7/20/2010 12:59:45 PM   
Apollo11


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Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

I've tried about every angle of attacking the Leningrad area and there are basically 4 approaches. All 4 have their pros and cons. I tend to use one or more depending on how the situation develops. Heading north to Narva, especially with armor, puts a threat real close to Leningrad and can yield some quick rewards if the soviets aren't expecting it. If that area is not defended in depth, Leningrad will fall quick.

Same with the land bridge between the 2 lakes. Even though there is swamp there, a panzer corps that gets thru there can compromise the entire Pskov defense line further south and cut off the defenses along the Narva.

Another option is to go right to Pskov or near there and force that route. That tends to be the most common approach.

The last approach that works well for me is to divert the panzers down towards Velikie Luki linking up with panzers from AGC. This can really wreck havoc with the center defenses but then I turn 4th P north on the east bank of the Dvina and come up behind Pskov and then choose to either continue north or northeast.

Andy


Andy is true master!

As for Soviet player - this scenario is as "nightmarish" as it can be... you have to defend so much with so little...


Leo "Apollo11"

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RE: Road to Leningrad AAR (for Beginners) - 7/20/2010 1:41:45 PM   
Sabre21


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quote:

ORIGINAL: von Jaeger

This is a really useful discussion.   I plan to push wider on the Eastern flank, but only as far as Novgorod (your junction South of Lake Ilmen, Pieter, looks to be a very good spot for an ID to hold this long flank, but I am not planning on going any further East).  

Jon, I will clear Estonia  just as quickly as I can (and take Tallinn by storm -that's what Model's reinforced Corps is mustering for down by Riga),  but I was planning to use 18th army to do that, not my armour.   But maybe I can spare a division or two to help do it more quickly?!   The logic of losing an entire flank, and using the coast for that job instead of my precious landser, is inescapable for me.  

I also planned to slip some armour through the marshes, as you suggest Andy, to support the main drive of Tot and 8th Pz from Pskov.   (Does driving through marsh or rough country increase the chance of mechanical breakdown attrition, do you know?   No point arriving on time with no tanks!)

More this evening
Stuart



You're doing good here Stuart with this AAR. I usually take Tallinn with a security unit since it is rarely defended and it is an objective in this scenario. As for the swamp hexes, I can't say if there is any additional breakdown possibilities in those hexes, that's a good question to get back to Gary, but it does cost 6 mp's per hex compared to 1 mp in the open.

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RE: Road to Leningrad AAR (for Beginners) - 7/20/2010 1:43:25 PM   
ComradeP

 

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quote:

ComradeP its about your flank. Do sweep some PzD's into Estonia and clear an 120 mile flank and reduce it to 30 miles or leave it open to a Soviet counter while you drive on Leningrad? You can't take Leningrad without your infantry, 4th PzG will become lunch if it goes it alone...Andy spoke above how he's tormented players by doing what youv'e recomended...


I'm still missing the strategic reason for why a quick capture of Estonia is essential.

Let's assume the situation is going to be as you say, and the Soviets are trying to threaten the German flank through forces in Estonia. The Soviet forces will be facing most of the purple infantry divisions. From the position shown by Von Jaeger in the last post with a screenshot, the Soviets would have a few options:

-They would have to advance 9 hexes to get to Pskov, across difficult terrain and across two minor rivers, not to mention that they would be attacking Pskov across a minor river too. That isn't going to happen. Pskov is also the only city they can capture that would actually threaten the German supply situation, as all other rail lines are not really essential as long as the rail lines leading to Pskov are working.

-They could move towards Riga. Again, they would have to cross two minor rivers and would face difficult terrain and would have to advance around 11 hexes, and they would be attacking Riga across a major river or from a single non-river hexside hex. That isn't going to happen either.

-They could advance into central Latvia. Big deal, nothing they can do there can really threaten the Germans on the short term.

To achieve any of that, they would have to move substantial forces to their flanks. Meanwhile, those substantial forces are not near Leningrad or anywhere else. The Soviets need those forces more around Leningrad than the Germans need a few additional infantry divisions when facing fewer defenders. The Soviets are never going to have enough momentum to advance quickly.

From a strategic sense, I'd really be in no hurry to get to Tallinn as the Germans, there's just too little to gain from doing so. As such, I'd advise Stuart not to use Panzer divisions in Estonia, but to swing the Panzer Army east to Pskov and then north, and possibly further to the east in the full campaign where you have the time for a wide encirclement, although moving towards Vyshnyvolochek is still an attractive idea even in a short scenario like this.

There's also another reason for doing so, which brings me to the points Andy posted.

Narva, although close to Leningrad, is also seperated from Leningrad by: two major rivers, one major river and a minor river or three minor rivers depending on which hexes the Germans attack. Unless the Soviet player is asleep, that area is the dream of any defender due to the woods, the swamps and the fact that most hexes can only be attacked from two sides and across multiple rivers. If the area is not defended in depth, you'll probably get to Leningrad quickly. If the area is defended in depth, your Panzers are in an area they can't quickly relocate from. It's essential to strike in an area where, if the initial approach isn't working, you can hit another sector. That isn't possible with the Narva or "strike between the swamps between the lakes" option.

The latter option can also yield some good results, but if it doesn't your Panzers will not only be stuck in a swamp with no other sectors to hit, but will also be on the enemy side of a major river at least three hexes from the nearest rail line (in the case of Narva, you'd be sitting on a rail line).

The area between the two lakes and Novgorod/Lake Ilmen seems to be the most ideal attacking route for your Panzers for several reasons:

-Difficult for the Soviet to defend in depth, as there are a lot of hexes to cover.

-Multiple rail lines around to ease supply issues.

-If an attack doesn't work in one sector, Panzers can quickly strike another sector.

-The terrain is mostly horrible around Novgorod, the rest is OK.

-Depending on where you strike there are only one or two minor rivers to cross, minor rivers with conveniently located rail bridges.

-You, not the Soviets, can always decide where you strike (because you have so many options), so you can keep the initiative and momentum.

The last option Andy mention is fairly irrelevant for this scenario as AGC isn't on the map (mostly), and AGN is actually tasked with capturing AGC objectives for some reason.

The option Andy didn't mention, but which Hard Sarge has shown us in an AAR of a wide encirclement aimed at the ports supplying Leningrad is a very solid option, but there's probably not enough time for that in this scenario.

< Message edited by ComradeP -- 7/20/2010 1:46:45 PM >

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RE: Road to Leningrad AAR (for Beginners) - 7/21/2010 12:48:34 AM   
von Jaeger


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Sorry for the delay - no lack of enthusiasm, just short of time.  

Pieter, I take the point about not over-investing in clearing Estonia but I do think the 18th army will have a good jump off for Leningrad over the Narva (and that's where Model's corps will be, fresh and bristling with big guns).

I'll try to post a turn or two tomorrow evening, but I've got a busy day
Stuart

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RE: Road to Leningrad AAR (for Beginners) - 7/21/2010 6:15:16 AM   
Sabre21


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ComradeP

I use the same strategy Ron mentioned about the ports when playing as the Germans once I get past Pskov, pretty much everyone does, or at least tries. This scenario I think is a bit too short to maybe accomplish that, I'm running a game now with it as the Soviets, so we'll see. It is a lot harder to take those ports from an experienced Soviet player than  from the ai. The Soviets must delay the Germans with any and all means, otherwise the defenses of the city will not stand a determined assault.

Andy

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RE: Road to Leningrad AAR (for Beginners) - 7/21/2010 10:30:02 AM   
ComradeP

 

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quote:


Pieter, I take the point about not over-investing in clearing Estonia but I do think the 18th army will have a good jump off for Leningrad over the Narva (and that's where Model's corps will be, fresh and bristling with big guns).


The Narva area is certainly a good jump off point, but it does require an advance somewhere else to distract Soviet resources from defending that fairly small area in depth, otherwise you're either not getting across the rivers, or only very slowly.

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RE: Road to Leningrad AAR (for Beginners) - 7/21/2010 11:02:44 AM   
Apollo11


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Hi all,

In those early turns (until some reinforcements start to come) Soviet player has just a few available (i.e. unforozen) combat units... no defense in depth is possible at all... all you get is paper thin wishful frontline... it is very very hard on Soviet player...


Leo "Apollo11"

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P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

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Post #: 99
RE: Road to Leningrad AAR (for Beginners) - 7/21/2010 10:11:54 PM   
von Jaeger


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OK time for some more stuff... here's the final position at the end of turn 3. You can see that Tot and 8 Pz have tidied up near Pskov but not done anything too crazy. I have advanced my air bases and HQ's and reinforced Model with more artillery and rockets with my admin. points.





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RE: Road to Leningrad AAR (for Beginners) - 7/21/2010 10:14:58 PM   
von Jaeger


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... and for the number lover wallahs out there, here are the losses at the start of turn 4 (air losses are 58 - 879):




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< Message edited by von Jaeger -- 7/21/2010 10:15:26 PM >

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RE: Road to Leningrad AAR (for Beginners) - 7/21/2010 10:33:25 PM   
von Jaeger


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Rail conversion from Riga is picking up pace





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RE: Road to Leningrad AAR (for Beginners) - 7/21/2010 10:36:16 PM   
von Jaeger


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I Corps (18th Army) wipes out all resistance along the gulf coast - large numbers of prisoners (c. 45K) as the isolated divisions here surrender, including the brave 112th.






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< Message edited by von Jaeger -- 7/21/2010 10:39:48 PM >

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RE: Road to Leningrad AAR (for Beginners) - 7/21/2010 10:41:24 PM   
von Jaeger


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112th ID's inglorious end:




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RE: Road to Leningrad AAR (for Beginners) - 7/21/2010 11:12:28 PM   
von Jaeger


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The two Pz Corps probe forward and finding no resistance, drive on until exhausted!!! They take Kingisepp near the mouth of the Luga, turning the Narva defences, and Oranienbaum port without a fight. Where are the Russians?

I am very concerned that I have over-extended. 16th army has moved up rapidly to support the Eastern flank but there remains a huge gap between the Plyussa and Luga Rivers that I cannot fill. Goering assures me that his transports can provide the fuel and shells my panzers require!




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RE: Road to Leningrad AAR (for Beginners) - 7/21/2010 11:22:47 PM   
Flaviusx


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Very impressive drive forward.

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RE: Road to Leningrad AAR (for Beginners) - 7/21/2010 11:25:01 PM   
von Jaeger


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Here's the overview of AGN after German Turn 4 - I feel as though I have mishandled my infantry who are moving too slowly, and that I am taking a big gamble on the Russians being too weak to seriously threaten my armoured divisions. We shall see. Now to the Finns, who have woken up to see their allies at Leningrad's door, and at last move to support them.





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RE: Road to Leningrad AAR (for Beginners) - 7/21/2010 11:26:55 PM   
von Jaeger


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My Pz HQ's are right on the Luga - 19 hexes from the rail head.  This is a very exposed position for the 4th Pz Group.

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RE: Road to Leningrad AAR (for Beginners) - 7/21/2010 11:32:47 PM   
Flaviusx


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Seems to me you've totally preempted the Soviet defenses.

Yeah, they may cut off your forward elements and give you a difficult time, but it's hard to see how they can recover from this and establish some kind of defense on the Luga...and that's really about the last good place to make a stand for Leningrad before the Volkhov.

They are looking awfully thin on the ground.

You're well ahead of schedule.  

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RE: Road to Leningrad AAR (for Beginners) - 7/21/2010 11:35:11 PM   
von Jaeger


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Fat Herman does let me down - his promises are empty boasts - as he fails to re-suppply 6th Pz and 3rd and 36th Mot Divisions at all. The 3rd has no fuel at all, and if forced to retreat will have to abandon all their heavy equipment (I presume)! The three most Northerly divisions are at about 20% fuel capacity. These are high stakes indeed..




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RE: Road to Leningrad AAR (for Beginners) - 7/21/2010 11:38:35 PM   
von Jaeger


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So - to the Finns. Here's their jumping off positions. This will be a slogging match for a couple of turns.




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RE: Road to Leningrad AAR (for Beginners) - 7/22/2010 12:06:54 AM   
von Jaeger


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...and here's what I could make of their attacks. Not bad but no breakthroughs yet.
Notice the little coloured triangles on the unit counters? This is set to morale (green - good, red - poor) at the moment, and helps to explain why the Russians rout relatively quickly at present.





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RE: Road to Leningrad AAR (for Beginners) - 7/22/2010 12:22:11 AM   
von Jaeger


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Finnish Front at start of Turn 5. Russians have pulled back it seems - but they are not easy to locate in these dense woods. Recon in force...






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RE: Road to Leningrad AAR (for Beginners) - 7/22/2010 12:25:17 AM   
von Jaeger


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and the main event at start Turn 5. Now to the meat grinder... (and good night)






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RE: Road to Leningrad AAR (for Beginners) - 7/22/2010 9:51:18 PM   
pipewrench


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thanks for all the effort , the play by play with the screenshots tell a great story. I for one will be watching with keen interest as to whether or not you have overextended yourself in some places.....good job..

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RE: Road to Leningrad AAR (for Beginners) - 7/22/2010 10:08:25 PM   
ComradeP

 

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I have to say this is probably the most complete Alpha I've ever seen, not to mention the first Alpha showcased by quality AAR's.

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RE: Road to Leningrad AAR (for Beginners) - 7/22/2010 10:26:01 PM   
von Jaeger


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Thanks, Pipewrench - great to have the other AAR's on line, and to learn from. With BigA's big campaign and a PBEM between two very experienced players, we are spoilt for choice. I think now, having shown you how I have got into the game as a new player, I will limit my AAR to the military aspects, and less on the game components. (When I have learned more of the detail, I will do another more detailed AAR in the future maybe.)

Meanwhile please ask any questions you may have and give any advice you want! Looking at the start of turn 5, Pieter's (ComradeP's) advice to close down the rail junction South of Lake Ilmen looks to have been sound. (Pieter - I was on my way but maybe a little too late!)

Finnish Front: the population of Vyborg welcomes its liberators, and the 4th Finnish ID rushes through the gap in the lines towards Leningrad. Nobody else in this boggy, forested wilderness is rushing anywhere, although the Karelian army in the North is marching as hard as it can against an elusive enemy.





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< Message edited by von Jaeger -- 7/22/2010 10:29:56 PM >

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RE: Road to Leningrad AAR (for Beginners) - 7/22/2010 10:39:24 PM   
von Jaeger


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I have used this turn to try out out a new function for HQ's - Build Up. I have used this for both of my Pz Corps and it has built my supplies and fuel up to full strength. I think this is worth trading against manoeuvre this turn to allow the infantry to close up.








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RE: Road to Leningrad AAR (for Beginners) - 7/22/2010 10:50:29 PM   
von Jaeger


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Estonia is largely cleared and with no significant combat. IF Tallinn is not evacuated it's going to need Model's (the red HQ) big guns to help reduce it. Next turn we link up with 4 Pz - I hope. I am still worried about where the Russians have gone to ground.




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RE: Road to Leningrad AAR (for Beginners) - 7/22/2010 10:54:32 PM   
von Jaeger


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Rail line has made great progress towards Pskov this turn, but I stepped out of the Baltic Rail conversion zone this turn and it stopped being so easy!!!





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