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question on defenders and forts

 
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question on defenders and forts - 7/15/2010 2:42:12 PM   
vaned74

 

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I haven't had time to set up a test on this and haven't thought to look for it yet, but, if well fortified defenders on say an island base (no place to retreat) lose a combat and the base is taken by the attackers - do the defending LCUs retain their remaining fort levels as individual units or do they all go down to 0 forts?

I would think they should retain their forts (excepting those that were reduced by combat of course) - I can't imagine the defenders on Iwo deciding to leave the caves once the airstrips were taken (ie representing base capture by the US in the game).

Just curious if anyone knows the answer to this.
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RE: question on defenders and forts - 7/15/2010 2:57:28 PM   
Nikademus


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If the base is taken the defending fort. level has been reduced to zero

(in reply to vaned74)
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RE: question on defenders and forts - 7/15/2010 4:00:02 PM   
vaned74

 

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I recognize the "base fort level" has been reduced to 0.  But, what caught my eye was I was reading the AAR between AdmSpruance and Stoneage and Spruance's attack on Tinian reduced the forts to 4 but also took the base.  So the question is if the "forts" have been reduced to 4 but the base is captured, do the remaining Japanese LCUs still have any fortifications left?

If not, this would appear to be somewhat out of whack as I can't imagine the entrenched defenders all over the hex deciding to abandon all of their caves, dugouts, pits, etc. once the airfield and port is captured.

From the AAR below:
Ground combat at Tinian (108,94)
Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 38867 troops, 720 guns, 1108 vehicles, Assault Value = 1586

Defending force 17650 troops, 259 guns, 151 vehicles, Assault Value = 284

Allied engineers reduce fortifications to 4

Allied adjusted assault: 3126

Japanese adjusted defense: 441

Allied assault odds: 7 to 1 (fort level 4)

Allied forces CAPTURE Tinian !!!



(in reply to vaned74)
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RE: question on defenders and forts - 7/15/2010 4:10:00 PM   
Nikademus


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When a base is captured, all defending fortification levels are considered destroyed. Its the same whether its acomplished on one stroke or gradually.

example of gradual:

4 combats vs. fort level 4

a) odds 1:1 (x engineers reduce fortifications to 3)
b) odds 2:1 (x engineers reduce fortifications to 1)
c) odds 1:1 (x engineers reduce fortifications to 0)
d) odds 2:1 (x forces CAPTURE y !!!)

example of in one stroke:

1 combat vs fort level 4

a) odds 6:1 (x forces CAPTURE y!!!)

in both cases the fort levels are considered destroyed (aka reduced to 0)


(in reply to vaned74)
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RE: question on defenders and forts - 7/15/2010 4:45:49 PM   
Shark7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vaned74

I recognize the "base fort level" has been reduced to 0.  But, what caught my eye was I was reading the AAR between AdmSpruance and Stoneage and Spruance's attack on Tinian reduced the forts to 4 but also took the base.  So the question is if the "forts" have been reduced to 4 but the base is captured, do the remaining Japanese LCUs still have any fortifications left?

If not, this would appear to be somewhat out of whack as I can't imagine the entrenched defenders all over the hex deciding to abandon all of their caves, dugouts, pits, etc. once the airfield and port is captured.

From the AAR below:
Ground combat at Tinian (108,94)
Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 38867 troops, 720 guns, 1108 vehicles, Assault Value = 1586

Defending force 17650 troops, 259 guns, 151 vehicles, Assault Value = 284

Allied engineers reduce fortifications to 4

Allied adjusted assault: 3126

Japanese adjusted defense: 441

Allied assault odds: 7 to 1 (fort level 4)

Allied forces CAPTURE Tinian !!!





Basically in order to capture the base, you had to clean out the forts. To do that you probably used some high explosives, flamethrowers, or other devastating weapons. The end result is that the fort is no longer usable for whatever reason. Ask yourself, would you really want to hunker down in the same pillbox that you just burned 6 people to death in?

_____________________________

Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to vaned74)
Post #: 5
RE: question on defenders and forts - 7/15/2010 5:06:23 PM   
vaned74

 

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I am not sure this is exactly correct that the forts have to be destroyed for the base to be captured. Base capture occurs at 2:1 odds plus 1 odds level for every fort in the hex - ie 4 forts then 6:1 is required.

In the example from the AAR above - 7:1 resulted in the base being captured even though 4 forts were still left.

All of this I understand.

I guess my point is that if it is working as designed, it appears that it is not quite realistic versus some of the historical island fighting. For example - the Palaus fighting, Iwo Jima, large sections of Okinawa, Guam - once the base (ie port and airfield) were captured the Japanese defenders did not suddenly abandon their remaining fortifications and run out into the open (albeit some did in Banzai attacks...) to be butchered by allied airpower and artillery.

I have no problem with certain levels of forts being destroyed on base capture, just merely pointing out that the model seems off.

Edit - in case it is not clear - I am not in any way advocating that the capturing side should gain control of "undamaged" forts.

< Message edited by vaned74 -- 7/15/2010 5:07:42 PM >

(in reply to Shark7)
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RE: question on defenders and forts - 7/15/2010 5:11:27 PM   
xj900uk

 

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Agreed. At Pelelieu and also Iwo Jima the USM captured the airfield fairly quickly in the campaign, but the IJ defenders continued to hold out for several weeks afterwards (and causing significant additional USM casualties in some pretty savage hand-to-hand fighting).
Suggest therefore that for a future patch even after the base is captured, defenders are still present and holding out 'in the hills/caves' and furthur combats will be required to 'dislodge' them (Come on developers, how about it for a future patch - more realistic than a mass fixed bayonets and banzai?!)
And in the Phillipines, individual Japanese army units holding out after all their bases had officially been captured - well significant-sized army groups and units were still surrendering well into '46... (and with odd IJ soldiers holding out into the 70's and beyond...)

(in reply to vaned74)
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RE: question on defenders and forts - 7/15/2010 5:51:46 PM   
Nikademus


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Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vaned74

I guess my point is that if it is working as designed, it appears that it is not quite realistic versus some of the historical island fighting.


Just telling you how the engine handles it. When bases are captured, defending fort levels are destroyed. Normally the unit retreats. If no retreat path exists it sits in the hex and suffers additional penalties until eliminated. Gary had to cover a broad range of combat situations from continental, to jungle to atoll.



(in reply to vaned74)
Post #: 8
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