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List of Japanese LCU to Watch Out For

 
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List of Japanese LCU to Watch Out For - 7/15/2010 3:03:10 AM   
davbaker

 

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Haven't got around to playing a game as Japan as yet so not very familiar with various Japanese Ground Units.

Which units should I try and keep a close eye on via intel / spotting etc?

Doesnt have to be extensive list just which are the elite Japanese LCU that will cause me a lot of hurt when they show up as they pack a lot of punch / have good commanders etc.

I know I could look through lists but they dont always tell the real story of how and where various units were used.

Which LCU do Japanese players rely on to 'get the job done'?

Cheers!


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RE: List of Japanese LCU to Watch Out For - 7/15/2010 3:11:37 AM   
Misconduct


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Any unit whose AV is higher then what you have defending. Ground units aren't taken seriously in AE, Land combat is pretty much easy to figure out - however you need to keep an eye on whats in the area and what you have available. I can't say what, because even the AI has fun shifting china units to DEI or NG.

Just remember if you are attacking, have 3 to 1 in AV points, or Defending enough supplies to hold out.


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RE: List of Japanese LCU to Watch Out For - 7/15/2010 3:19:37 AM   
davbaker

 

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I'm Playing a PBEM game and want to know which units to keep an eye out for.

i.e. the Imperial Guards Div (sp?) is at Singapore at the moment, 400+ AV.

I'll be keeping a very close eye on that to see if it heads north to Burma etc. after it crushes Singapore

That's one I've noticed and assume it's an elite unit, any others?

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RE: List of Japanese LCU to Watch Out For - 7/15/2010 3:23:25 AM   
Misconduct


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quote:

ORIGINAL: davbaker

I'm Playing a PBEM game and want to know which units to keep an eye out for.

i.e. the Imperial Guards Div (sp?) is at Singapore at the moment, 400+ AV.

I'll be keeping a very close eye on that to see if it heads north to Burma etc. after it crushes Singapore

That's one I've noticed and assume it's an elite unit, any others?


I don't think any units are really Elite, in a sense you can say any Marine unit based on Experience and Moral, Marine Raider units, any commando units also could be troubling. Problem is its tough to intel a unit until you are actually facing the unit and it tends to be on even grounds. Best you can do is prep the fight and knock out all supply, when that happens do a few Ground attack missions once those supplies are eaten up and you can get a better idea.

I have a pair of allies campaigns going mid through 43 and I haven't noticed any Japanese units that stand out as "elite" - one japanese campaign I can say the marines are pretty painful to deal with, only because I have lack of numbers to do so when they ride in with 300+ AV.

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RE: List of Japanese LCU to Watch Out For - 7/15/2010 5:23:45 AM   
crsutton


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I am not sure if it is all AV either. In open terrain a regiments with Lee/grants seems to eventually beat up a regiment of Japanese tanks. The AVs are about the same. All other things being equal.

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RE: List of Japanese LCU to Watch Out For - 7/15/2010 9:36:24 AM   
EUBanana


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I am not sure if it is all AV either. In open terrain a regiments with Lee/grants seems to eventually beat up a regiment of Japanese tanks. The AVs are about the same. All other things being equal.


Ages ago tests were done on this, and while AV determines who wins an engagement, casualties are modified by comparative strength of units.

If you take Indian technicals into battle they do as well as Valentines, but only once, as while they may well win they suffer a higher ratio of destroyed to disabled (no armour) and I think even higher casualties in general.

But as far as winning is concerned, 1 AV is 1 AV, whether from an improvised AFV or a T34.



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RE: List of Japanese LCU to Watch Out For - 7/15/2010 10:32:53 AM   
Atilla60


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EUBanana
But as far as winning is concerned, 1 AV is 1 AV, whether from an improvised AFV or a T34.


Isn't that an over simplification? I mean, I hope it is.
I'm under the impression that in determining battle results there's AV and there's combat odds.

Okay, if you have 1000 AV while your opponent has 200, everything else equal, the end result is given.
However, if the opposing force's AVs are tight, things like force composition, experience, morale, leader ratings and a truckload of other parameters can tip the combat odds in favor of the side with the lesser AV.

Have I got that wrong?


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RE: List of Japanese LCU to Watch Out For - 7/15/2010 10:58:46 AM   
Alfred

 

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The initial unadjusted AV is modified by those and other factors to give the final adjusted AV. It is the final adjusted AV which determines the outcome and 1 adjusted AV = 1 adjusted AV

Alfred

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RE: List of Japanese LCU to Watch Out For - 7/15/2010 12:27:03 PM   
Canoerebel


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In most of my games I go through and make a list of Japanese infantry divisions that not assigned to restricted HQs - these are the ones that your opponent can quickly move to the front and give you trouble.  For instance, there's Imperial Guards, 5th, 33rd, and 4th.  I think there's something like 11 or 13 at the beginning of the game.

Then, any time you see something other than those show up, you know your opponent has spent PP to buy them from a restricted HQ.  That generally means he wanted them pretty badly.

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RE: List of Japanese LCU to Watch Out For - 7/15/2010 12:29:45 PM   
davbaker

 

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Thats what I was after, Thanks.

Units to keep an eye on so you don't get any nasty suprises!

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RE: List of Japanese LCU to Watch Out For - 7/15/2010 3:41:28 PM   
Shark7


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Morale and experience will also play a part, that is why you can sometimes beat 3 Chinese corps with a single Japanese Division (or in some cases a Mixed Brigade). Disruption is a huge factor as well as disablements.

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RE: List of Japanese LCU to Watch Out For - 7/15/2010 3:57:56 PM   
Sredni

 

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I've been putting together a list of allied divisions and their relative strengths and when I might expect to be able to put them into combat, and I've also often wished I had a corresponding list for japanese divisions.

Like there were 12 Australian divisions during the war, some were destroyed, some were never deployed for offense (they didn't spend PP's to release them I guess heh), and I think some only appeared on paper. But all 12 of those divisions should be accessible in some form or another at some point during the game. A savvy Japanese player would know about these divisions and understand that each of them is only 1500 PP (roughly heh) away from offensive deployment. Although only 7 or 8 are accessible at the period of time I'm at in my game (late 1942), with 2 being unrestricted from the start.

It seems like there are hundreds of American army divisions, but so far I have 23rd, 24th, 25th, 27th, 32nd, 37th, 41st, and 43rd. I'm sure I've missed some. There are a bunch of army divisions that appear only briefly on the mainland before being redeployed to Europe.

There are 6 marine divisions historically (I think). But you only have access to some of them at the start.

And my list also has 11 Indian divisions. 2 of which are wiped out at Singapore, and don't have an upgraded TOE for late war anyways so they don't even get upgraded infantry units (the 42 and 43 upgrades).

Then there's all the individual brigades and regiments (a division is 3 brigades), and all the armored units that all seem less then division sized.



If I had a checklist of Japanese divisions I could make a list of where I know each one is, and which ones I've decimated. And then use that knowledge to anticipate what sort of force levels are available to the Japanese at any given time and place.

< Message edited by Sredni -- 7/15/2010 3:58:35 PM >

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RE: List of Japanese LCU to Watch Out For - 7/15/2010 4:01:06 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Atilla60


quote:

ORIGINAL: EUBanana
But as far as winning is concerned, 1 AV is 1 AV, whether from an improvised AFV or a T34.


Isn't that an over simplification? I mean, I hope it is.
I'm under the impression that in determining battle results there's AV and there's combat odds.

Okay, if you have 1000 AV while your opponent has 200, everything else equal, the end result is given.
However, if the opposing force's AVs are tight, things like force composition, experience, morale, leader ratings and a truckload of other parameters can tip the combat odds in favor of the side with the lesser AV.

Have I got that wrong?



unmodified AV is that simple in that no account of the characteristics of the device are factored into it......so two divisions equal in quantity for example in terms of device numbers and types but with very different levels of firepower and/or defensive strength on a per device comparison will list the same basic AV on the unit displays. In combat however, in addition to terrain, leader, morale/exp, fatigue/disruption and a bunch of die rolls.....the "modified" AV will then be determined from it.




< Message edited by Nikademus -- 7/15/2010 4:14:15 PM >

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RE: List of Japanese LCU to Watch Out For - 7/15/2010 4:09:24 PM   
EUBanana


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Atilla60


quote:

ORIGINAL: EUBanana
But as far as winning is concerned, 1 AV is 1 AV, whether from an improvised AFV or a T34.


Isn't that an over simplification? I mean, I hope it is.
I'm under the impression that in determining battle results there's AV and there's combat odds.

Okay, if you have 1000 AV while your opponent has 200, everything else equal, the end result is given.
However, if the opposing force's AVs are tight, things like force composition, experience, morale, leader ratings and a truckload of other parameters can tip the combat odds in favor of the side with the lesser AV.

Have I got that wrong?




Things like morale and experience are modifiers to their AV, you see this with the Chinese especially. Also you have factors like, for example, inexperienced units breaking when pushed back as there is some sort of morale check involved. In Malaya the inexperienced Indians usually end up with the dreaded 'Disorg' status when pushed back and suffer disproportionate casualties, if you get that result when armour is chasing you you will likely be annihilated. Crack troops will tend to retreat in good order in comparison. There is no doubt that experience, leadership and morale are big influencers.

The actual stats of the units involved, firepower and such, seem to be much more subtle in effect though. Like I said, Indian improvised AFVs will do just fine in terms of AV and even adjusted AV, they will however take high casualties and when they do suffer casualties they are more likely to be destroyed rather than disabled. High casualties of course has secondary effects on the major stats, morale and experience.

This came up because someone aaaaages ago was curious what happened when T-34s met Japanese toytanks and tried it out, because the T-34s should be enormously superior. The answer is, the toytanks actually did surprisingly well at first flush, but a deeper look at the casualty figures after the battles showed up the impact that the superior stats of the T-34 have. Some people were dubious that a tankette would have a snowflakes chance in hell vs a T-34, but it does, for a fight or two anyway.

From memory : casualties are dependent primarily on 'winning', with a win defined as at least 1:1 combat odds. So 600 toytanks vs 300 T34s will 'win' on AV most likely and take few casualties as a result. However the T34s will likely not suffer many destroyed and maybe if they are lucky fairly light casualties in general as when assessing casualties for the loss their stats will help out. On the other hand 600 T34s versus 300 toytanks, when winning, will probably rip the toytanks a new one with a very high number of tankettes outright destroyed, and its concomitant impact on morale and such.

Less sure on how infantry works but I assume something similar.

< Message edited by EUBanana -- 7/15/2010 4:20:17 PM >


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RE: List of Japanese LCU to Watch Out For - 7/15/2010 4:14:09 PM   
EUBanana


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Here is a link. Spence tested it ages and ages ago.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1637340&mpage=8&key=T34�

I do dimly remember an actual test and the hagglings on the board over the results of the test. The conclusion seemed to be that individual unit quality did indeed have quite an effect but it was subtle.

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RE: List of Japanese LCU to Watch Out For - 7/15/2010 4:31:55 PM   
Canoerebel


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I just opened Scenario Two and here's a list of unrestricted IJA divisions at the start.  My memory is that there should be something like 11 to 13, though, so I'm missing some.  Does anybody know where the others are?

33rd - Rangoon
38th - Hong Kong
21st - Shanghai
4th - Osaka
Imperial Guards - Battembang

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RE: List of Japanese LCU to Watch Out For - 7/15/2010 4:32:55 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

Here is a link. Spence tested it ages and ages ago.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1637340&mpage=8&key=T34?

I do dimly remember an actual test and the hagglings on the board over the results of the test. The conclusion seemed to be that individual unit quality did indeed have quite an effect but it was subtle.


http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=972631&mpage=1&key=JS%2DIII��

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RE: List of Japanese LCU to Watch Out For - 7/15/2010 7:12:20 PM   
JWE

 

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Cannot and will not discuss the algorithm, but here’s how it works on a top level basis.

“Base” AV, is “Base” AV, is “Base” AV: each Type 23 Squad Device = 1, each Type 24 Eng Device (NOT 251 or 252 Engs) = 1, each Type 25 AFV Device =1 : Calculator total is “Base” AV for the LCU. This is what is reported.

Firepower of Devices do not factor into AV. They factor in elsewhere. A halftrack flagged as an AFV = 1; a JS-2 or an M-26 = 1.

People get to shoot at people immediately prior to final combat odds determination and combat resolution. Firepower is supremely important in this phase. This is where the main internal data differentiation between a squad, a halftrack, and a JS-2 takes place.

The “survivors” get calculated into the final AV derived combat odds. Internally calculated “disrupted” elements don’t get to play.

After all this, the final (relative) combat odds are calculated on the basis of the above and all the factors that Nik mentioned, including many, many die rolls (randoms). There are literally thousands of possibilities, so only salient die roll results are reported.

HINTS

The hit/death calculation will “mostly” disrupt a target device, but way well (random) kill it. If a hit whacks a disrupted device, it’s a deader. Disruption, and death (random) results from defense firepower. Disrupted devices do not AV.

If you attack anyway, disrupted devices will be killed by superior firepower. So if you have a unit of Green Beanies, commanded by Joshua, but have a bunch of disrupted elements from something that happened previously, you will have some letters to write. You may ‘win’ on the ‘odds’ but you may ‘lose’ on the ‘algorithm’.


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RE: List of Japanese LCU to Watch Out For - 7/15/2010 11:01:43 PM   
EUBanana


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I think the ground combat is a lot deeper than it appears at first. There is less for the player to influence, less knobs you can twiddle, but there's a lot going on.

This came out in that artillery discussion as well.

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RE: List of Japanese LCU to Watch Out For - 7/16/2010 1:57:59 AM   
ckammp

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I just opened Scenario Two and here's a list of unrestricted IJA divisions at the start.  My memory is that there should be something like 11 to 13, though, so I'm missing some.  Does anybody know where the others are?

33rd - Rangoon
38th - Hong Kong
21st - Shanghai
4th - Osaka
Imperial Guards - Battembang


There are 7 more unrestricted IJA Divisions at start for Scenario 2. All are broken down into regiments, some regiments further broken down to battalions or detachments; most are already loaded on various TFs. When rebuilt, they are as follows:

2nd
5th
16th
18th
48th
55th
56th

In addition, for Scenario 2, the Japanese receive the following unrestricted Divisions between 4201 - 4203:

4th Guards
5th Guards
6th Guards
Guards Tank Division


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RE: List of Japanese LCU to Watch Out For - 7/16/2010 3:14:01 AM   
davbaker

 

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Thanks!

Getting a nice little watchlist of units to help me understand what my opponent is up to.

Also a nice explanation of AV with a few links that turned on a lightbulb with how ground combat works and why I never seem to be able get the result I want.

Another Question:
How do other players evaluate combat odds to decide if an attack is a good idea, with the information present when playing?

i.e. All you can see on the map if you have good detection is number of troops in that hex.
No indication of actual units or AV etc.

Is it mandatory to fly a ground combat mission against the hex to at least get an idea of units in the hex?
This still doesnt tell you AV though.

Is the only way to see AV actually attack?
Seems very hit and miss way to guage enemy strength, probably explains why I do so badly with Land Combat

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RE: List of Japanese LCU to Watch Out For - 7/16/2010 7:28:02 AM   
EUBanana


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quote:

ORIGINAL: davbaker

Thanks!

Getting a nice little watchlist of units to help me understand what my opponent is up to.

Also a nice explanation of AV with a few links that turned on a lightbulb with how ground combat works and why I never seem to be able get the result I want.

Another Question:
How do other players evaluate combat odds to decide if an attack is a good idea, with the information present when playing?

i.e. All you can see on the map if you have good detection is number of troops in that hex.
No indication of actual units or AV etc.

Is it mandatory to fly a ground combat mission against the hex to at least get an idea of units in the hex?
This still doesnt tell you AV though.

Is the only way to see AV actually attack?
Seems very hit and miss way to guage enemy strength, probably explains why I do so badly with Land Combat



The best intelligence you can get is from bombarding, then you see the enemy OOB and you don't put yourself at risk. Full strength divisions are about 400AV usually and brigades are about 120-150 AV. Just count the bad guys.


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