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RE: Business Model - 9/28/2010 1:33:22 AM   
jomni


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quote:

When it comes to game value, consider what one costs to play on an hourly basis. So if I play a new game on average for 1 hour a day, over 2 months I have had 60 hours of entertainment. Using BFTB as an example at $80 that resolves at $1.33 per hour.

Not a bad average when compared to movies, a night out with friends, and many other fun things. Plus I have the game to play whenever I wish. The difficult part is to try and make wise purchases and often that is not easy with whatever we wish to buy.


But if you have other games to play, time spent on the game is less. Too many games, too little time to play. We eventually have to make a choice.

I think they must realize that people nowadays don't play just one title for months until they finish all missions / campaigns. Today's generation are multi-taskers with short attention span. This is the reason why console games only have campaings that last 10-20 hours and quick multiplayer matches that last 10 minutes. This seems to be working for today's generation.

quote:

As an aside, I wonder if people realize how open and tolerant the Matrix forums are. Many others are not.

That's why I like it here.

< Message edited by jomni -- 9/28/2010 1:39:10 AM >


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Post #: 151
RE: Business Model - 1/6/2011 12:19:53 AM   
RangerX3X


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Having burned out on the latest first person shooters, I have been coming back and playing my copy of HTTR now and then, and having the expected blast. Recently I reinstalled BFTB, and have played it countless times in the last several weeks.

When I realized I was playing the same scenario over and over in the demo and getting a different result every time, coupled with the fact that I actually wrote an AAR – for a demo mission – I knew I basically had a fundamental shift in opinion regarding my original post.

That said I will be picking up the full game next paycheck.

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Post #: 152
RE: Business Model - 1/8/2011 2:29:29 PM   
Perturabo


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I think that you, guys should raise prices of games to about 130$ -150$. It's a perfect price for hardcore games - with monster games like BftB and WitE costing 165$.
Here in Poland games cost 130PLN-150PLN which is the same in relation to work pries as 130$ - 150$ in the West. Companies that sell games at these prices prosper here. People are ready to work a lot to get a good game.

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Post #: 153
RE: Business Model - 1/8/2011 2:38:59 PM   
Terminus


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What, you actually LIKE hearing the endless whining about $80 games? No thanks.

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Post #: 154
RE: Business Model - 1/8/2011 3:19:13 PM   
Perturabo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

What, you actually LIKE hearing the endless whining about $80 games? No thanks.

Well, people will buy them anyway and at some point they'll stop whining because they would be busy playing their 130$ games. And games would be much more advanced and would look better because their developers would be less constrained by budget. Maybe stuff like 300 page printed manuals could come back.
It's certainly much better than for example pretending that a game is an accurate depiction of modern tactical warfare when it isn't.
It's not like these are some impossible sums - I buy several vintage games for over 130 PLN each each year despite earning below national median.

< Message edited by Perturabo -- 1/8/2011 3:26:36 PM >


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Post #: 155
RE: Business Model - 1/8/2011 6:11:49 PM   
Sarge


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

I think that you, guys should raise prices of games to about 130$ -150$. It's a perfect price for hardcore games - with monster games like BftB and WitE costing 165$.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

What, you actually LIKE hearing the endless whining about $80 games? No thanks.


Good Lord ..........

Matrix would last all of a week with you 'n Termite in charge.

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Post #: 156
RE: Business Model - 1/8/2011 7:01:54 PM   
Perturabo


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Just like Panther Games went bankrupt after releasing Battles from the Bulge? The prices that I wrote about are tested and they work, even if other games are present that cost 2-3 times less.

Modern wargames are severely underpriced taking in account how small and elite (let's not cheat ourselves, it's not like just anyone can play wargames. Such an intellectual entertainment naturally belongs to people who are able to earn reasonably high amounts of money) the market is. They are relatively cheaper than much simpler games were in times of 8-bit computers. Good wargames have incredibly high re-playability and can be played for many years and even without good graphics, actually making a good AI is a very difficult task which should be appropriately rewarded.
And if games aren't good enough to be actually worth that price? Well, they have no right to exist. Especially when they don't even have mechanics appropriate for their time period and don't have at least a decent AI.

< Message edited by Perturabo -- 1/8/2011 7:12:41 PM >


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Post #: 157
RE: Business Model - 1/8/2011 7:40:18 PM   
RangerX3X


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BftB is a great game and I am finally going to shell out $69 US to get the download and the install disk, but the game was never worth the original asking price, and would sell to less than 1/10th of those who bought it at that initial price if they rolled it out at $130 to $150 as you say. To then suggest throwing in a manual is sheer folly.

And your elitest high-income gamer argument shows how pathetically shallow and single-minded you are (you are actually no different than a corn-fed racist, just playing class-warfare instead of race-warfare).

Geez...

< Message edited by RangerX3X -- 1/8/2011 7:43:06 PM >


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Post #: 158
RE: Business Model - 1/8/2011 7:47:02 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

I think that you, guys should raise prices of games to about 130$ -150$. It's a perfect price for hardcore games - with monster games like BftB and WitE costing 165$.


By what measure is BFTB a "monster game"??? In my book it's barely a solid scenario pack for an old engine. As such it should cost around 15-20 bucks by today's game pricing standards.

WITE.... now THAT is indeed a monster game. As monster-ish as they come.

I don't know which prices are "just", or business-smart or anything, but in any case, WITE should have "monster price", whatever that is, and BFTB should have "scenario pack price". I'd say 80$ for WITE vs 20$ for BFTB sounds about right in my eyes.

The fact that Matrix priced both of those incredibly different products practically the same throws a very bad light on the company's pricing policy IMO.

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Post #: 159
RE: Business Model - 1/8/2011 8:11:34 PM   
flipperwasirish


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko


quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

I think that you, guys should raise prices of games to about 130$ -150$. It's a perfect price for hardcore games - with monster games like BftB and WitE costing 165$.


By what measure is BFTB a "monster game"??? In my book it's barely a solid scenario pack for an old engine. As such it should cost around 15-20 bucks by today's game pricing standards.

WITE.... now THAT is indeed a monster game. As monster-ish as they come.

I don't know which prices are "just", or business-smart or anything, but in any case, WITE should have "monster price", whatever that is, and BFTB should have "scenario pack price". I'd say 80$ for WITE vs 20$ for BFTB sounds about right in my eyes.

The fact that Matrix priced both of those incredibly different products practically the same throws a very bad light on the company's pricing policy IMO.



I disagree, if they followed your pricing logic BFTB wouldn't have been created. While that may make you happy, many others wouldn't have a product they like. Value is up to each person to decide. If you don't like the price of a product that is fine. You just can't wish away the resources expended to create a product and expect a company to lose money in order to meet your expectations of value. Good luck with your wait for $20.00 quality products.

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RE: Business Model - 1/8/2011 8:32:57 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish
I disagree, if they followed your pricing logic BFTB wouldn't have been created. While that may make you happy, many others wouldn't have a product they like. Value is up to each person to decide. If you don't like the price of a product that is fine. You just can't wish away the resources expended to create a product and expect a company to lose money in order to meet your expectations of value. Good luck with your wait for $20.00 quality products.


There are lots of "quality 20$ products". Red Orchestra, a niche game at the release, is one of them, for example. RO developers sold a buckload of them, not to mention they offered targeted sales and "happy weekends" on Steam for even less. RO is a full fledged game with tons of scenarios.

BFTB is in my eyes a "scenario pack" kind of product. Those usually cost in the 15-25$ price range. But, hey, if we agree that "permium monster games" cost 120$, then a "scenario packs" can go up to 30$. Whatever.

My point is WITE and BFTB should NEVER EVER cost the same, not even close. And we as gamers should not tolerate them costing the same. Just my opinion, though.

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Post #: 161
RE: Business Model - 1/8/2011 8:46:44 PM   
V22 Osprey


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I wouldn't call Battles from the Bulge a scenario pack. Considering all the labor require to make those scenarios historically accurate and modifying the code to make sure the game modeled the Battle of the Bulge well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

Modern wargames are severely underpriced taking in account how small and elite (let's not cheat ourselves, it's not like just anyone can play wargames. Such an intellectual entertainment naturally belongs to people who are able to earn reasonably high amounts of money) the market is.


Woah, that's a bit harsh. There are allot of people who play wargames who don't make allot of money. There are many circumstances into play of why someone isn't making a certain amount of money, regardless whether they are intellectual or not.


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RE: Business Model - 1/9/2011 5:09:23 AM   
Perturabo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko


quote:

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish
I disagree, if they followed your pricing logic BFTB wouldn't have been created. While that may make you happy, many others wouldn't have a product they like. Value is up to each person to decide. If you don't like the price of a product that is fine. You just can't wish away the resources expended to create a product and expect a company to lose money in order to meet your expectations of value. Good luck with your wait for $20.00 quality products.


There are lots of "quality 20$ products". Red Orchestra, a niche game at the release, is one of them, for example.

You mean a FPS that was sold in big chain stores? Developed by a group of modders that got a free licence of the Unreal engine?
It's as "niche" as Counterstrike.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko


quote:

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish
I disagree, if they followed your pricing logic BFTB wouldn't have been created. While that may make you happy, many others wouldn't have a product they like. Value is up to each person to decide. If you don't like the price of a product that is fine. You just can't wish away the resources expended to create a product and expect a company to lose money in order to meet your expectations of value. Good luck with your wait for $20.00 quality products.


There are lots of "quality 20$ products". Red Orchestra, a niche game at the release, is one of them, for example. RO developers sold a buckload of them, not to mention they offered targeted sales and "happy weekends" on Steam for even less. RO is a full fledged game with tons of scenarios.

BFTB is in my eyes a "scenario pack" kind of product. Those usually cost in the 15-25$ price range. But, hey, if we agree that "permium monster games" cost 120$, then a "scenario packs" can go up to 30$. Whatever.

My point is WITE and BFTB should NEVER EVER cost the same, not even close. And we as gamers should not tolerate them costing the same. Just my opinion, though.

Does WITE have modelled chain of command like BFTB? Also, are Baldur's Gate 2, Planescape: Torment, Icewind Dale and Icewind Dale 2 just scenario packs for Baldur's Gate 1?

quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

Modern wargames are severely underpriced taking in account how small and elite (let's not cheat ourselves, it's not like just anyone can play wargames. Such an intellectual entertainment naturally belongs to people who are able to earn reasonably high amounts of money) the market is.


Woah, that's a bit harsh. There are allot of people who play wargames who don't make allot of money. There are many circumstances into play of why someone isn't making a certain amount of money, regardless whether they are intellectual or not.


Earning reasonably high amounts of money = being able to save up such a sum for a game that they'll play for many months/years in a month or two.

I'm pretty sure that for example a modern successor to Close Combat series with a good AI, great moddability, vastly improved tactical gameplay and interesting campaign system would be worth even 165$ - some people literally got divorced over the old games. CC series games are proven to be playable for at least a decade in multiplayer.

I'm still playing mostly games that are a decade+ old, so they were certainly worth the 165PLN that I have paid for them and they were certainly worth saving money for.
In my book anyone who can create a game that can bring enjoyment for a decade deserves to be handsomely rewarded.

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RE: Business Model - 1/9/2011 5:56:58 AM   
Fintilgin

 

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I'll cash in with my two cents.

I do sometimes feel that Matrix is shooting itself in the foot a bit, although pricing is just part of that, and probably not the biggest part.

I always feel that the insistence that these are ultra-niche products is a self-fulfilling prophecy. I don't have the statistics, obviously, but it seems like the number of gamers is growing ever larger and the ease of reaching them with niche or indie products is getting ever easier but the number of computer wargamers is fairly stagnant in comparisson.

A big issue is User Interface. I've bought a lot of wargames from a lot of different companies over a few decades, and the UIs are almost always awful. I don't want to pick on any games in particular, but I'm sure we all own a few where learning the UI was more of a challenge then learning the game itself. It's understandable, given how they're developed by tiny teams, but that doesn't make it acceptable. I don't want to hear the argument that an atrocious UI is to be expected because the games are complex. I think that's BS. The whole point of a good user interface is to make complex systems accessible and usable.

It's probably not financially possible for Matrix to hire on a full time UI developer who could work hand in hand with development teams, however I think it would be a really good idea for them to hire a temp consultant or two who has worked on major titles with good UIs or who has a degree in human interface systems. Sit down and try to come up with a solid set of UI guidelines that developers need to shoot for if they want to publish with Matrix. Little things like consistent use of right and left click functionality throughout ALL menus in a game; or if you're going to access unit functions with icons, make sure all the unit functions in that game work the same way - don't have some use icons, some use a bit of highlighted text in a sub-window, and others use keyboard shortcuts only documented in the back of a 700 page manual. I strongly feel like if you guys were able to sit down with some people who really knew their stuff in the UI field you could come up with a decent set of basic guidelines that could improve usability and lower the entry barrier of newly published titles across the board.

Similarly, I think as stronger focus on tutorials would help. Preferably interactive in-game ones. Following along with the manual or watching a blurry youtube video is only so much help. The real challenge should be in mastering the game, not figuring out how to move your units.

Part of it is pricing. I've spoken to a lot of people both in real life and online who are intrigued by some of Matrix Game's titles but scared away by the massive price tags. Combine that with the fact that a lot of people who might love wargames will probably never find places like Matrix or Battlefront unless they going looking for them, I think a big potential audience is being missed. If it were up to me, I'd say that Matrix should try to get a handful of their best, most attractive, most accessible top titles onto Steam and price them in a manner intended to appeal to people outside their niche audience. Imagine if Matrix had a few of their strong titles up in the recent Steam Christmas sale. Imagine they were able to work with Steam to get a couple featured as daily deals. War in the East - 19.95$, Commander: Europe at War - 2.50$, Forge of Freedom - 9.99$. While they might not have made much money per unit, they might very well have sold more copies in that sale then during the regular life time of the product sold solely through the Matrix games website. Steam sales are HUGE. Far more importantly, it could have introduced thousands and thousands of new people to the hobby. Remember, 90% of those sales would have been to people who never would have bought the game in the first place if they hadn't seen it on Steam, been intrigued, and then 'impulse purchased' because it was cheap.

Call me a dreamer if you will, but I don't think wargaming needs to remain an ultra-niche genre, confined to an ever graying cadre of those of use who cut our teeth playing Avalon Hill's Afrika Corps and Squad Leader with our buddies back in junior high. I think the hobby should be doing everything it can to bring in new blood. I think there are probably more people out there who would love these games but are scared away by high prices, actively hostile interfaces, or simply don't know the games even exist, then are in the hobby right now.

I dunno, maybe I'm way off base, but I can't help but fearing the computer wargame industry falling into a self-reinforcing death spiral of ever more expensive titles being sold to an ever shrinking fan base of fanatics. I don't want to see the games simplified, but I do feel a stronger focus on presentation, usability, product visibility, and more aggressive pricing could work wonders.


Well. There. I've said my piece. I'll mosey off into the sunset now.

< Message edited by Fintilgin -- 1/9/2011 6:05:32 AM >

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RE: Business Model - 1/9/2011 9:35:17 AM   
Perturabo


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I'm pretty sure that they would be able to finally afford good interfaces and good in-game tutorials with higher prices (and hopefully good manuals for physical versions).
As for the prices scaring away people - there should be demos good enough to hook up people for some period of time and make them crave for more.

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RE: Business Model - 1/9/2011 10:04:37 AM   
ilovestrategy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey

I wouldn't call Battles from the Bulge a scenario pack. Considering all the labor require to make those scenarios historically accurate and modifying the code to make sure the game modeled the Battle of the Bulge well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

Modern wargames are severely underpriced taking in account how small and elite (let's not cheat ourselves, it's not like just anyone can play wargames. Such an intellectual entertainment naturally belongs to people who are able to earn reasonably high amounts of money) the market is.


Woah, that's a bit harsh. There are allot of people who play wargames who don't make allot of money. There are many circumstances into play of why someone isn't making a certain amount of money, regardless whether they are intellectual or not.




Yeah seriously. I am a school custodian and I can tell you that a lot of teachers with masters and making really good money are airheads.

And what about me? From having a small salary I have a little beat up used car and a small condo. And I've been playing wargames for 30 years. I had to wait till a sale came up so I could buy Storm over the Pacific(Damn Nips took Hawaii and are chasing my fleet all over the Pacific ) for $32.

Wargames is not rocket science. Anyone with the desire can learn to play.

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RE: Business Model - 1/9/2011 11:49:39 AM   
Perturabo


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Well, there are always people who can't afford new games. Here, they usually buy several years old games for 30-50PLN. I guess a similar thing wouldn't be possible with Matrix Games business model, though.

< Message edited by Perturabo -- 1/9/2011 11:50:07 AM >


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RE: Business Model - 1/9/2011 12:11:58 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


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Perturabo, very rarely I feel that continuing the discussion is totally pointless because ther other guy does not have ANY idea about the topic we discuss, but this is one of those moments.

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RE: Business Model - 1/9/2011 2:44:59 PM   
RangerX3X


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fintilgin

I dunno, maybe I'm way off base, but I can't help but fearing the computer wargame industry falling into a self-reinforcing death spiral of ever more expensive titles being sold to an ever shrinking fan base of fanatics. I don't want to see the games simplified, but I do feel a stronger focus on presentation, usability, product visibility, and more aggressive pricing could work wonders.



You are not way off base - you are spot on. The only reason I found out about Matrix and eventually picked up HTTR from a reseller is because I stumbled across a demo on FilePlanet for a game called "Red Devils Over Arnhem".

I am not a board wargamer at all - have never played those things. The games I do play on PC are mostly shooters, racers and some RTS, but all very mainstream titles. No one in the squads/clans I game with every night have ever heard of Matrix.

Yet, when I found that demo, I was hooked right off the bat, and have been thrilled with HTTR, squeezing every last cent of the $14.99 I paid for it brand new.

But not the same with COTA or BfTB, which was the original premise of my post several months ago. Although I am biting the bullet and buying BftB, because it is a great game, the fact remains that I am a non-war gamer who became a customer not because of anything Matrix or Panther did, but because I clicked the wrong link on FilePlanet and came across something I had never seen before.

So unless the industry as it is rolls out of their security blanket, yeah, I would agree it is in a self-reinforcing death spiral.

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RE: Business Model - 1/9/2011 4:30:59 PM   
bairdlander

 

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Same story here,I started with PI games,then discovered Matrix publisher.The thing I dont understand is PI releases new games at average $40,then a month later they sell for $20 or less.Why doesnt Matrix publishing do the same?

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RE: Business Model - 1/9/2011 6:15:10 PM   
diablo1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

Just like Panther Games went bankrupt after releasing Battles from the Bulge? The prices that I wrote about are tested and they work, even if other games are present that cost 2-3 times less.

Modern wargames are severely underpriced taking in account how small and elite (let's not cheat ourselves, it's not like just anyone can play wargames. Such an intellectual entertainment naturally belongs to people who are able to earn reasonably high amounts of money) the market is. They are relatively cheaper than much simpler games were in times of 8-bit computers. Good wargames have incredibly high re-playability and can be played for many years and even without good graphics, actually making a good AI is a very difficult task which should be appropriately rewarded.
And if games aren't good enough to be actually worth that price? Well, they have no right to exist. Especially when they don't even have mechanics appropriate for their time period and don't have at least a decent AI.


Well the part you leave out my friend is the cost of a boardgame continues to grow over time while the cost of a particular computer game does not. A computer game once the data is stored is good for as long as the data is maintained (which is pennies a year) compared to a board, counters, dice, box, printed manual(s) errata sheets and any other materail the board game requires to be played. That is the reason board games have gotten higher not because they are BETTER board wargames.

20 years from now Battles from the Bulge could still be distributed for $80 or $5 because the data will always be the same and will still be there most likely. It could even be FREE as STEEL PANTHERS W@W is now. So no, computer wargames do not need to be $130 to $150 just because board wargames are because the cost is not the same nor ever will be.

At this point in time even $80 for any computer game is still too high based on average retail sale prices. That's why there is such a big uproar because it just doesn't fit in the market value of pc gaming as a normal price pattern.

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RE: Business Model - 1/9/2011 6:21:50 PM   
diablo1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bairdlander

Same story here,I started with PI games,then discovered Matrix publisher.The thing I dont understand is PI releases new games at average $40,then a month later they sell for $20 or less.Why doesnt Matrix publishing do the same?


I thought I had told you this already? PI is a mainstream publisher who "branched" out into other avenues of income. Matrixgames has not. PI also uses the same engine over and over for different games while Matrixgames has not. PI also has a larger advertising budget and a larger fan base as well. Look at forum numbers sometimes Matrixgames has 20,000 members and PI has like 200,000 (those are not exact figures but you should get the point). You can also find PI games in other online stores and even brick n mortar stores whereby the majority of Matrixgames you cannot. Matrixgames has decided to seal themselves off from the gaming world and that's one big reason you don't see their prices fall to less than $10 unless the developer is also with another publisher with games like Time of Wrath and Storm over the Pacific, etc. So don't expect to ever see Battles from the Bulge for $5 until 20 years from now or thereabouts.

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RE: Business Model - 1/9/2011 6:26:09 PM   
diablo1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR


quote:

ORIGINAL: diablo1

Well if you compare say the inflation rate of bread, milk, gas etc since the 80's games today should cost about $200-$250 each. We're getting a pretty good deal that most games are staying at the $50 range while a handful are trying for premium prices but still nowhere near the inflation rates of most groceries and essentials we need today. I do realize we don't "need" games but it was just something to toss out there of how much everything has increased in 25 years except computer games.


As a kid my parents paid $19.99 for most games. $24.99 at the most. The cost of games has more than doubled since then. Nearly tripled.


Those were games that already hit bargain prices or were junk games as we called them that retailed for $19.99 to $24.99. I remember SSI wargames and SSG wargames clearlyh in the high 30's and 40 dollar ranges. There were of course discount sites where you could save 10% to 25% if you looked around for them. All the good to great games though were always around $40-$50 retail.

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Post #: 173
RE: Business Model - 1/9/2011 6:37:06 PM   
bairdlander

 

Posts: 1528
Joined: 3/28/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

Just like Panther Games went bankrupt after releasing Battles from the Bulge? The prices that I wrote about are tested and they work, even if other games are present that cost 2-3 times less.

Modern wargames are severely underpriced taking in account how small and elite (let's not cheat ourselves, it's not like just anyone can play wargames. Such an intellectual entertainment naturally belongs to people who are able to earn reasonably high amounts of money) the market is. They are relatively cheaper than much simpler games were in times of 8-bit computers. Good wargames have incredibly high re-playability and can be played for many years and even without good graphics, actually making a good AI is a very difficult task which should be appropriately rewarded.


Panther games is bankrupt?As I have said evertime there is one of these stupid price threads,wargames are selling roughly the same price as in the '80s.If you dont want to pay,dont play.It's costing me roughly 50 cents per hour for all the time spent on WitE and will continue to go down the more I use it.As for some of the crap titles Matrix has published and I bought,oh well,win some lose some.I just have to be more careful of my purchases,its not like the publisher Matrix put a gun to my head and forced me to purchase.

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Post #: 174
RE: Business Model - 1/9/2011 6:44:30 PM   
diablo1

 

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Joined: 2/27/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Slick Wilhelm


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerX3X

quote:

ORIGINAL: Slick Wilhelm

Their willingness to host this forum is another reason to remain loyal to Matrix Games.



Are you serious?


Well, not very often...but in this case, yes. Do you think it's cost-free and time-free to maintain a forum like this? I hardly think so. This is the only forum where I'm a "regular", and I appreciate that Matrix Games provides a place for us to discuss wargames.


Almmm you told a story because I see your name splattered all over the Norbsoft Gettysburg forum a lot. Oh but you'll say that's not you right?

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Post #: 175
RE: Business Model - 1/9/2011 7:19:24 PM   
Perturabo


Posts: 2267
Joined: 11/17/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerX3X

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fintilgin

I dunno, maybe I'm way off base, but I can't help but fearing the computer wargame industry falling into a self-reinforcing death spiral of ever more expensive titles being sold to an ever shrinking fan base of fanatics. I don't want to see the games simplified, but I do feel a stronger focus on presentation, usability, product visibility, and more aggressive pricing could work wonders.



You are not way off base - you are spot on. The only reason I found out about Matrix and eventually picked up HTTR from a reseller is because I stumbled across a demo on FilePlanet for a game called "Red Devils Over Arnhem".

I am not a board wargamer at all - have never played those things. The games I do play on PC are mostly shooters, racers and some RTS, but all very mainstream titles. No one in the squads/clans I game with every night have ever heard of Matrix.

Yet, when I found that demo, I was hooked right off the bat, and have been thrilled with HTTR, squeezing every last cent of the $14.99 I paid for it brand new.

But not the same with COTA or BfTB, which was the original premise of my post several months ago. Although I am biting the bullet and buying BftB, because it is a great game, the fact remains that I am a non-war gamer who became a customer not because of anything Matrix or Panther did, but because I clicked the wrong link on FilePlanet and came across something I had never seen before.

I have found out about Panther Games by googling "realistic chain of command" - I have never heard about it too. I didn't even know that such games exist. Then I played the demo and exchanged another game for a boxed copy of Red "Devils Over Arnhem".
I wanted to buy Battles from the Bulge from my performance bonus but it turned out to be much lower than I expected so I have bought full boxed version Fire Brigade and a full boxed version of Darklands instead as I wasn't really interested spending 270 PLN on a single digital copy of a game after it costed me so much work to obtain that amount of money (it's about the same amount of work as needed to get 270$ in USA).
I got most of Matrix Games games that I have from a bargain bin in a local Tesco. I haven't played them much as most of them are operational wargames and it's not really my cup of tea. One of them is War Plan Orange and I basically get overwhelmed by sheer scale of that game.


quote:

ORIGINAL: bairdlander

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

Just like Panther Games went bankrupt after releasing Battles from the Bulge? The prices that I wrote about are tested and they work, even if other games are present that cost 2-3 times less.

Modern wargames are severely underpriced taking in account how small and elite (let's not cheat ourselves, it's not like just anyone can play wargames. Such an intellectual entertainment naturally belongs to people who are able to earn reasonably high amounts of money) the market is. They are relatively cheaper than much simpler games were in times of 8-bit computers. Good wargames have incredibly high re-playability and can be played for many years and even without good graphics, actually making a good AI is a very difficult task which should be appropriately rewarded.


Panther games is bankrupt?As I have said evertime there is one of these stupid price threads,wargames are selling roughly the same price as in the '80s.If you dont want to pay,dont play.It's costing me roughly 50 cents per hour for all the time spent on WitE and will continue to go down the more I use it.As for some of the crap titles Matrix has published and I bought,oh well,win some lose some.I just have to be more careful of my purchases,its not like the publisher Matrix put a gun to my head and forced me to purchase.

I hope it's not a reply to my post that you have quoted. If it is then you have to work on your reading comprehension.
As for crappy titles...
If they are advertised as good titles, then it's a false advertising, which is basically conning customers out of their money.

< Message edited by Perturabo -- 1/9/2011 7:25:10 PM >


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Post #: 176
RE: Business Model - 1/9/2011 8:11:55 PM   
ilovestrategy


Posts: 3628
Joined: 6/11/2005
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The only reason I ever found out Matrix exists is because Gary Grigsbys World at War was on a shelf at Best Buy years ago.

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Post #: 177
RE: Business Model - 1/9/2011 8:21:55 PM   
Perturabo


Posts: 2267
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: offline
A lot of wargamers that I know are wargamers only because of a demo on cover CD or some game that they saw in a magazine or in store.
That whole ghettoisation of Wargames thing is a very bad idea. There need to be new gamers to keep the show going.

I'm pretty sure that a modern Close Combat successor could steal tons of players from a lot of more mainstream as it offers much more brutal action than abominations like RTT games.

< Message edited by Perturabo -- 1/9/2011 8:23:10 PM >


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Post #: 178
RE: Business Model - 1/9/2011 8:53:46 PM   
hgilmer3


Posts: 530
Joined: 12/28/2008
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I think I found out about Matrix because I did a google search on PacWar or War in Russia and the Matrix Games link came up.

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Post #: 179
RE: Business Model - 1/9/2011 9:22:27 PM   
V22 Osprey


Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/8/2008
From: Corona, CA
Status: offline
I found matrix through SPWAW. For a few years I was broke so I went looking for good freeware games. I came across SPWAW, though at first I thought it was a real-time top-down view war game like Close Combat because of the screenshots. Took a hours to finally download and I loaded it up. Boy was I surprised to discover it was a hex-based, turn based wargame. However I had spent hours downloading the game and didn't want it to all go to waste so I gave it a try anyway. I was hooked. Found my way to Matrix site and then found out about other games.

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Post #: 180
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