Business Model

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RangerX3X
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Business Model

Post by RangerX3X »

I am a casual wargamer at best. I primarily play other PC games such as Madden, Arma 2, Bad Company, COD4, Dirt 2, etc. I have a wide variety of games and I spend easily over $700 a year in video games and accessories. And that is just my PC - that doesn't cover squat with my XBox 360.

I stumbled across a demo on FilePlanet called Red Devils Over Arnhem. I was hooked and wanted the game badly. But this was 2007 and the game was impossible to find. I then came across Highway to the Reich for $14.99 new on a reseller site and picked it up. That game is simply a blast to play. I can get deep into and then walk away for several months and then come back. It is a keeper.

So it was/is with great anticipation that I look(ed) forward to COTA and BFTB. Much to my dismay, I constantly run into the iron fist of Matrix Games. COTA & BFTB cannot be found anywhere that I call tell brand new other than from Matrix. While I have certainly gotten my moneys worth and then some from HTTR, and I easily fork over cash for new games at $49.99 a clip, I have to choke to hold back the projectile vomit that comes from reviewing the prices from Matrix for these titles.

$79.99 for a digital download of BFTB? $59.99 for a digital download of COTA? $49.99 for HTTR?

Are you guys freaking nuts??

While this business model may make sense to you and you certainly may be making sales through your portal, you are most definitely alienating the first-time to casual wargamer market. Some of these games do not even have a demo that I am aware of.

Charging $49.99 for HTTR, a masterful game that was released over 7 years ago, is absolutely stunning. On what possible grounds can you justify this?

The newer games at $59.99 & $79.99 respectively do not have demos that I am aware of and you are pricing them at what a collectors edition console game could go for at Best Buy.

This simply does not make any sense why you would price out all but the hardest of the hardcore wargamers.

I'd love to play these games, but not at those prices. Not anywhere near those prices.
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sullafelix
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RE: Business Model

Post by sullafelix »

Well to put it into perspective computer wargames in 1984 were selling for $ 59.95.

There were no demos then. Of course there was a return policy at most stores also.
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RE: Business Model

Post by bairdlander2 »

ORIGINAL: RangerX3X

why you would price out all but the hardest of the hardcore wargamers.
Because Matrix knows we will buy them.I know what you mean though I have purchased 9 Matrix titles over the past 2 years and out of those I think the only ones worth the money were the Close Combat series,BftB and CotA.Also WitPAE,but its too time consuming and I havnt even tried it after playing for 3 weeks.
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jomni
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RE: Business Model

Post by jomni »

FYI... You can buy Matrix Games at a discounted price (with physical CD) from here:
http://yhst-12000246778232.stores.yahoo.net/matrixgames1.html

The Panther Games titles have the disadvantage of the developers being Austarlian. The exchage rate contributes to the high price.  BTW, I do not also agree with the pricing policy of BFTB.

Other good games from Matrix are not as expensive and are reasonable.

So don't put all the blame on Matrix.
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boatrigm
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RE: Business Model

Post by boatrigm »

I was upset with the price too but went ahead and bought BFTB. It's a great game and worth every penny.
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RE: Business Model

Post by jomni »

ORIGINAL: boatrigm

I was upset with the price too but went ahead and bought BFTB. It's a great game and worth every penny.

No gamebreaking CTDs for you so far?
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JudgeDredd
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RE: Business Model

Post by JudgeDredd »

ORIGINAL: RangerX3X
... you are most definitely alienating the first-time to casual wargamer market...
I can assure you they are alienating more than their fist-time casual wargamer market.

I for one have been a long term supporter of Matrix Games and actively promoted and anticipated the release of BftB. I buy what and when I can frim Matrix. I still haven't picked up (nor am I likely to pick up) BftB. Ironically, I've probably spent in excess of £100 on games since BftB release...I just refuse to pay over £50 for a game. That's most definitely my ceiling.

When my wages go up - I'll re-evaluate

The developer should've stayed out the price argument...his curt "we're happy with sales and the price will not be falling" statement was an "in yer face" comment and just made me dig my heals in. Unfortunately I'll be unlikely to buy any other Panther games after that little outburst. I'm still seething about it tbh.

Meant to say - having said all that - it's their business. They can do what they like. But the more they shut that door, the less likely I'll be hanging around.
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Hertston
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RE: Business Model

Post by Hertston »

Are you guys freaking nuts??

Opinion is mixed!

I ended up (note, 'ended up'!) forking out as I think the system is best wargaming engine there is. Others views differ; JD for example has an 'upper limit' that I seemingly don't, but is happy enough to fork out 35 quid on a rehash of a 1997 game (albeit an excellent one) which is something I totally draw the the line at. No criticisms, just different wants, and differences of opinion.

Like you, I can't see the current prices getting sales from anything but existing 'hard-core' wargamers, although in fairness (with a few exceptions, such as yourself) that's a boundary this series never really crossed even when you could pick up RDoA or HttR for a sensible price. I simply can't believe, though, that RAISING the price of CotA generated more revenue overall (compared reducing it, to encourage people to try and then buy BftB). But, then, I don't have the accounts.

My gripe is not so much with paying top-whack for genuine 'premium' titles, but over-pricing across the board (as perceived by a British customer). This is the consequence of a failure to adopt 'local' pricing which, whatever the justifications for that failure (which I'm fully aware of) is, at present, making Matrix more and more uncompetitive for a 'cross-genre' gamer like me. The 'price' of that is that while I did buy BftB and will buy WitE that's all from the both recent and upcoming crop that I will buy. Two or three years ago I would buy maybe two out of three of all Matrix titles. But with 'premium' games emptying the pot, and the likes of Steam adopting sensible pricing policies, the 'maybes' all become 'no, I don't think so'. I know Matrix can't compete with the might of Steam, but I look at what I just picked up in their sale for less than what 'Storm over the Pacific' alone would have cost me and just think... erm, well, er no.. [:(] Especially when I know that in the not too far distant future Gamersgate will heavily discount that title from the initial (much the same) price, even if Matrix don't.

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RE: Business Model

Post by doomtrader »

Especially when I know that in the not too far distant future Gamersgate will heavily discount that title from the initial (much the same) price, even if Matrix don't.
GamersGate is not discounting the title, Wastelands Interactive does.
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Hertston
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RE: Business Model

Post by Hertston »

ORIGINAL: doomtrader
GamersGate is not discounting the title, Wastelands Interactive does.

Noted, but to the end-customer that makes no difference.
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sterckxe
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RE: Business Model

Post by sterckxe »

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
I still haven't picked up (nor am I likely to pick up) BftB. Ironically, I've probably spent in excess of £100 on games since BftB release...I just refuse to pay over £50 for a game. That's most definitely my ceiling.

Too bad because you're missing out on a great game. Not trying to argue with your price ceiling, but have you counted the money you spend on games which fell under your price limit, but weren't worth it ? Wouldn't it then be better to spend 10 or 20 over your limit to have a game you'll be playing for months ? Anyway, the demo for BFTB should be out this or next week. Download it and play it. Then tell me this game isn't worth the price.

Basically it's a bit like liking gourmet food, but refusing to pay a little premium over a MacDo meal.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
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Fred98
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RE: Business Model

Post by Fred98 »

ORIGINAL: Hertston
I know Matrix can't compete with the might of Steam, but.......


I have no Steam games because they publish hopeless games.

And therefore Matrix becomes competitive.

All bar 1 games of the last 5 years have been Matrix. 9 The other was Decision Games)

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JudgeDredd
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RE: Business Model

Post by JudgeDredd »

ORIGINAL: sterckxe
...Then tell me this game isn't worth the price.
Eddy

I didn't say it wasn't worth the money [;)]
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RE: Business Model

Post by Twotribes »

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

ORIGINAL: Hertston
I know Matrix can't compete with the might of Steam, but.......


I have no Steam games because they publish hopeless games.

And therefore Matrix becomes competitive.

All bar 1 games of the last 5 years have been Matrix. 9 The other was Decision Games)

-

CWIE? Is their board down for you?
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Twotribes
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RE: Business Model

Post by Twotribes »

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

ORIGINAL: sterckxe
...Then tell me this game isn't worth the price.
Eddy

I didn't say it wasn't worth the money [;)]

So you admit you do not want to pay fair price? [:D]
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JudgeDredd
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RE: Business Model

Post by JudgeDredd »

Nope - I admit that I have a ceiling of £50 for a game. I base that on how long I'm likely to play any one game...and that is seldom very long...even the mighty BftB - I know this because as much as I loved CotA, I didn't play it much after the 4th week of having it...why? Because I bought other games. Sure I go back to it now and again and it's never been off my hard drive since installing. The engine is second to none. They are great games...unfortunately, great games do not hold my attention.

We've been through all this - so I'll stop there. Everyone has their reasons for justifying and not justifying and I've made my decision and given my reason.

Sure - I'll miss out...hey ho...life's full of choices. [:D] I'll get by.
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RE: Business Model

Post by Perturabo »

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

Basically it's a bit like liking gourmet food, but refusing to pay a little premium over a MacDo meal.
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MajFrankBurns
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RE: Business Model

Post by MajFrankBurns »

The developer should've stayed out the price argument...his curt "we're happy with sales and the price will not be falling" statement was an "in yer face" comment and just made me dig my heals in. Unfortunately I'll be unlikely to buy any other Panther games after that little outburst. I'm still seething about it tbh.

Same here bro. I spend nearly $700 a year myself on PC gaming alone and that's just gaming I spend another $500-$600 on hardware if I'm so inclined and Matrixgames is not getting any of that save for the Christmas sales and even that has fallen off in the last few years as their library isn't what I'm looking for most of the time.

I like a company that supports its customers and REWARDS them several times a year with SALES like Stardock and even though Paradox has the worst release method of all of them I still buy their products even if it is less than $10 most of the time. [:'(]

I just shelled out $80 <~~~~ yep that's right eighty dollars on the Collectors Special Edition of Elemental by Stardock. See Stardock is giving us more than just a game, colorful cloth maps, a pewter dragon and a PRINTED GD MANUAL/ENCYCLOPEDIA of the game as well as colorful artwork. I also can play it now in the Beta session which is 3A right now and soon going to the tactical combat part being opened up.

I will NOT shell out $80 for BftB which is nothing more than a repeated battle of WW2 that has been done to death since 1966 in some form or another. Big deal it has an engine where the ai can play without much input by the player. It's continous pauseable realtime blahzay. I wouldn't pay more than $20 right now for it when there was a time I would have bought it for $60 just as a collectors item. HTTR for $49.99? that's such a laugh as I bought my copy in Best Buy years ago for $7.99 (notice Matrixgames doesn't put much in the retail stores anymore).

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Erik Rutins
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RE: Business Model

Post by Erik Rutins »

ORIGINAL: MajFrankBurns
Same here bro. I spend nearly $700 a year myself on PC gaming alone and that's just gaming I spend another $500-$600 on hardware if I'm so inclined and Matrixgames is not getting any of that save for the Christmas sales and even that has fallen off in the last few years as their library isn't what I'm looking for most of the time.

You ought to at least get your facts straight. In terms of sales, our last two holiday sales have been the biggest in our history, with more games on sale and deeper discounts than in the past.
I like a company that supports its customers and REWARDS them several times a year with SALES like Stardock and even though Paradox has the worst release method of all of them I still buy their products even if it is less than $10 most of the time. [:'(]

Our holiday sale last year went on for six weeks! In addition, there were other blitzkrieg sales. As a result, if I understand what you really mean here is just that you want our games to be priced the same as games on Impulse or GamersGate that have already had retail releases, are mass market oriented and are able to sell for $5-$10 because it's just incremental profit at that point in their life cycle. Sorry, but that's a recipe to put us out of business quite quickly - it's just a fundamental misunderstanding of this niche market.
I just shelled out $80 <~~~~ yep that's right eighty dollars on the Collectors Special Edition of Elemental by Stardock. See Stardock is giving us more than just a game, colorful cloth maps, a pewter dragon and a PRINTED GD MANUAL/ENCYCLOPEDIA of the game as well as colorful artwork. I also can play it now in the Beta session which is 3A right now and soon going to the tactical combat part being opened up.

Comparing Elemental to one of our releases is frankly a demonstration of how you've misunderstood this niche. That's not even in the ballpark of an apples to apples comparison in terms of development and promotional budget, development team size, target audience and release plan.
I will NOT shell out $80 for BftB which is nothing more than a repeated battle of WW2 that has been done to death since 1966 in some form or another. Big deal it has an engine where the ai can play without much input by the player. It's continous pauseable realtime blahzay. I wouldn't pay more than $20 right now for it when there was a time I would have bought it for $60 just as a collectors item. HTTR for $49.99? that's such a laugh as I bought my copy in Best Buy years ago for $7.99 (notice Matrixgames doesn't put much in the retail stores anymore).

If you haven't played it, then you wouldn't really know what it is or is not. It's the most realistic operational simulation of the Battles in the Bulge to date. If that's of value, then here it is - no one else is making it and no one else will come close to it in terms of realism. I would recommend that you give the free demo a try once it's released later this month.

We send on average one game per year to retail, but retail for PC games is just about gone. The change there is simply the reality of what retail is now compared to what it was ten years ago for PC games.

Regards,

- Erik
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MajFrankBurns
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RE: Business Model

Post by MajFrankBurns »

You ought to at least get your facts straight. In terms of sales, our last two holiday sales have been the biggest in our history, with more games on sale and deeper discounts than in the past.

Oh wow a once a year sale and RARELY a NEW RELEASE is EVER on that SALE. You make us wait TWO years before you put 99% of your new releases onsale and you know it. You also didn't start those blitzkrieg sales until very recently maybe 2 years ago. Plus they come and go so fast if someone doesn't browse this forum every single day they will miss out anyway. And we're lucky if you have more than one blitzkrieg sale a year. Where's your MONTHLY NEWSLETTERS like Slitherine does?
Our holiday sale last year went on for six weeks! In addition, there were other blitzkrieg sales. As a result, if I understand what you really mean here is just that you want our games to be priced the same as games on Impulse or GamersGate that have already had retail releases, are mass market oriented and are able to sell for $5-$10 because it's just incremental profit at that point in their life cycle. Sorry, but that's a recipe to put us out of business quite quickly - it's just a fundamental misunderstanding of this niche market.

I don't understand how you let Paradox and Strategy First and even Slitherine before you (had) to partner with them outdo you in sales and service? How come they can "afford" to give sales on everyone of their products and you can't? You even have a larger library or did. Even Slitherine your partner now gives "preorder" sales on games like Field of Glory and its expansions. Plus their games are priced accordingly around $30 for most new releases. Also, your games don't have to be $10 but for gods sakes games 15 years old should be somewhere in that range.
Comparing Elemental to one of our releases is frankly a demonstration of how you've misunderstood this niche. That's not even in the ballpark of an apples to apples comparison in terms of development and promotional budget, development team size, target audience and release plan.

I'm comparing a PRICE TAG and the VALUE vs that PRICE. More for my money that's the bottom line and that's all that matters to a consumer. You think I wonder how many beans are in a can of Pork n Beans? I care about the PRICE first and then the Ounces and then value per ounce.
If you haven't played it, then you wouldn't really know what it is or is not. It's the most realistic operational simulation of the Battles in the Bulge to date. If that's of value, then here it is - no one else is making it and no one else will come close to it in terms of realism. I would recommend that you give the free demo a try once it's released later this month.

I haven't played it because you have priced it out of its value to ME! If you can't understand that then I can't help you understand. I realize you are in the business to make a profit but at some point it turns from profit to greed. In this case that is what I see compared to the hundreds of other wargames out there. You act as if BftB is gods gift to mankind of a wargame. Sorry, but its not. There will be many others after it as there are before it. It's just one game a high pricey one game for what it offers. Same with HTTR and COTA. I have played HTTR and plain and simple I didn't care for it. So that is another reason BftB has no extreme value to me.

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