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Question about Britain - 6/29/2010 8:29:11 AM   
ilovestrategy


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There's something I've been wondering. Are England, Scotland, Wales, etc. just smaller parts of Britain like California and New York are parts of the United States or is it something else entirely?

And do people from for example, England or Scotland consider them selves English or Scottish instead of British? Here in the States we call our selves Americans, regardless of which state we come from.

I apologize if it sounds like a dumb question. I've just been wondering this for a while.

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RE: Question about Britain - 6/29/2010 9:19:02 AM   
Punk Reaper


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Wales and Scotland have there own Parliament with some limited powers. They are also represented in the British Parliament in London where the main decisions are made about taxation, foreign policy etc... In my experience the Welsh and the Scottish are more nationalist than the English (Remember they have their own language) Ask a Scot what his nationality is and he'll probably say Scottish, ask an Englishman what his nationality is and he will probably either say English or British.

I believe that this is due to history. The English were invaded by Rome and Romanised while Scotland and Wales were able to resist and retain there culture. Same happened but to a lesser extent under the Norman invasion. The English invaded Scotland and Wales on numerous occasions suppressing the population, thus creating a stronger bond on nationalism.

In my experience we all get along fine however you will always find some people who are resentful of the past and present wrongs and are either rude or want independence. (There is to be a vote on Scottish independence some) but the majority seem to see the benefits of a United Kingdom.

Now over to Judge for his opinion

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RE: Question about Britain - 6/29/2010 9:32:46 AM   
jomni


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Geographically they are all part of the British Isles.

Historically / Politically:
Great Britain = England (including Wales) + Scotland
United Kingdom = England (including Wales) + Scotland + Ireland (now only Northern Ireland)... this is similar to the United States (which is a collection of states).

The British are the citizens of the British Isles / UK.  But I think they identify themselves as English (Anglo-Saxon), Scotish, Welsh, Irish (the latter three are Celtic I think)...

The flag of UK is a combination of the English (St. George's Cross), Scotish (St. Andrew's Cross), and Irish flags (St. Patrick's Cross). Sorry Welsh simbols aren't included.

I think that difference between the UK and the US is that the UK has a rich history (pre-history, ancient, medieval) compared to the US (not counting native Americans)... where there were several established kingdoms and are indigenous inhabitants of the lands (maybe not the Anglo-saxons). So the UK is truely a collection of nations. As Punk mentioned, the Celtic kingdoms are more individually nationalistic (calling themselves Welsh, Scottish, Irish) while the English are more collectively nationalistic (calling themselves British). On the other hand, majority of the US populaiton are immigrants (Anglo-saxons again(?)... I see a pattern here.) and the States are just political boundaries instead of true nations. There is not much inclination for individual state nationalism but only collective nationalism since they are racially homogenous (not these days) and without much historical attachment to the land during the establishment of the US. By the way, didn't the Native Americans consider themselves as individual "nations"?

To the Brits and the Americans, am I correct to draw these conclusions?

< Message edited by jomni -- 6/29/2010 10:28:59 AM >


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RE: Question about Britain - 6/29/2010 1:42:40 PM   
Twotribes


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Before the advent of rapid ability to move about the US and the world the US States tended to be more cohesive individually. The Civil War is an example, did you know that several of the Southern States simply refused to allow their militaries to unite with the Confederate Army? Considering them their own private Armies.

States were never Countries ( with a couple exceptions) that is true but through the mid 1800's some of them definitely thought like Countries. Especially before the Civil War. So until the late 1800's at least one was more likely to consider oneself a South Carolinian first and a member of the United States second.

That has changed to a large extent because of our ability to travel anywhere in a very short period of time and because of several events that saw mass migration of people from one area of the Country to another.

There are still a core of people that identify with State first though.

But as a rule I suspect the Scots and Welsh are more likely to think of themselves as separate from Britain more so then a US Citizen is to think of themselves separate from the US because of State ties.

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RE: Question about Britain - 6/29/2010 4:23:58 PM   
doomtrader


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quote:

Here in the States we call our selves Americans, regardless of which state we come from.

I thought there Americans and Texans.

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RE: Question about Britain - 6/29/2010 6:02:27 PM   
Jevhaddah


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Well as a Scot I see myself as Scottish and Scotland is part of the British Isles so I am also British. I do not hate the English.. or anyone else for that matter but I do have a pet peeve.

The Pet Peeve is when people from abroad say 'England or English' as in 'Could England or The English have won the second World War.. or The English were this, that or the next thing, when talking about Great Britain or the UK as a whole etc

As has been said above Great britain is an Island that is split into Several countries, England, Wales, Scotland and Nothern Island which make up the UK.

And no I feel no need to race over the border in my kilt waving my Claymore whilst exposing my dangly bits... thats all in the past

Cheers

Jev

Edit : altered to read better

< Message edited by Jevhaddah -- 6/29/2010 6:20:38 PM >


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RE: Question about Britain - 6/29/2010 6:20:32 PM   
Slick Wilhelm


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LOL Jev!

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RE: Question about Britain - 6/29/2010 7:45:39 PM   
Punk Reaper


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quote:

And no I feel no need to race over the border in my kilt waving my Claymore whilst exposing my dangly bits...


On behalf of all of us English I thank you.......

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RE: Question about Britain - 6/29/2010 8:32:26 PM   
teddy


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I was born in Scotland but my Grandfather was born in West Ham and grew up in Walthamstow - both East London districts - so really I consider myself British just as much as I am Scottish. I personally think that we all need each other in our own different ways and we shouldn't really split. We all have representatives in each others countries and for the main part get along just fine. I mean, we haven't done too badly as a team over the last 303 years.

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RE: Question about Britain - 6/29/2010 8:54:06 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jomni

Geographically they are all part of the British Isles.

Historically / Politically:
Great Britain = England (including Wales) + Scotland
United Kingdom = England (including Wales) + Scotland + Ireland (now only Northern Ireland)... this is similar to the United States (which is a collection of states).

The British are the citizens of the British Isles / UK.  But I think they identify themselves as English (Anglo-Saxon), Scotish, Welsh, Irish (the latter three are Celtic I think)...

The flag of UK is a combination of the English (St. George's Cross), Scotish (St. Andrew's Cross), and Irish flags (St. Patrick's Cross). Sorry Welsh simbols aren't included.

I think that difference between the UK and the US is that the UK has a rich history (pre-history, ancient, medieval) compared to the US (not counting native Americans)... where there were several established kingdoms and are indigenous inhabitants of the lands (maybe not the Anglo-saxons). So the UK is truely a collection of nations. As Punk mentioned, the Celtic kingdoms are more individually nationalistic (calling themselves Welsh, Scottish, Irish) while the English are more collectively nationalistic (calling themselves British). On the other hand, majority of the US populaiton are immigrants (Anglo-saxons again(?)... I see a pattern here.) and the States are just political boundaries instead of true nations. There is not much inclination for individual state nationalism but only collective nationalism since they are racially homogenous (not these days) and without much historical attachment to the land during the establishment of the US. By the way, didn't the Native Americans consider themselves as individual "nations"?

To the Brits and the Americans, am I correct to draw these conclusions?

Warspite1

In answer to ilovestrategy I would say it was not a dumb question - you'd be surprised how many people from the UK do not understand....no seriously

The British Isles is made up of three Kingdoms (England, Scotland, Ireland) and one principality (Wales). That is the reason the Welsh flag does not appear on the flag of the United Kingdom.

As can be imagined with countries so close together, war was a regular feature between these peoples both before, during and after the Romans left.

The English invaded Wales pretty early in preceedings (1300's?) and I guess sort of "annexed" the country. English and Welsh tend to share the same laws to this day as a result of this "annexation" for example.

Things get really complicated with the end of the Tudors (1603) and the English king James I also being James VI of Scotland (due to Henry VII's sisters marrying into the Scottish royal family and Queen Elizabeth dying childless). But the formal act of Union between England and Scotland which united the two Kingdoms, only came about in 1707.

At this time Scotland - as an established Kingdom in her own right - kept many of her own laws and does to this day). At this time the Kingdom's flag was the cross of St George (England) and the Saltire (St Andrews cross of Scotland). England Scotland and Wales together form Great Britain.

Ireland was invaded at various times and there's some great (and sad) history surrounding at various times, Oliver Cromwell, the Pope and William of Orange, James II etc.

A formal act of union took place in 1801 joing Ireland with Scotland and England under the name, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. The red cross of St Patrick was added at this time to form the flag we know today.

I won't begin to go into the tortuous Republic of Ireland / Northern Ireland split, suffice to say this happened in 1921(?) and the Republic became independent of the UK. Northern Ireland remained ruled from London (Westminster).

The term British therefore does not technically include Northern Ireland but this is generally ignored - its easier on the tongue than United Kingdom.

In recent years there have been moves to devolve power from Parliament at Westminster to local parliaments in Scotland, Wales and (again I won't go into Ireland).

So as you can see, we are not like the USA - you are one country, while we are four - and one at the same time.

Personally, I was brought up by my parents (both of whom served their country in WWII) to be British and proud of it. In recent years I have felt myself becoming more drawn toward my Englishness in response to a lot of anti-English political nonsense at home (that I won't bore you with). But despite this, I still love the UK, its rich and varied history and the contribution of all her peoples English, Scottish, Irish and Welsh, to extending civilisation and democracy across the globe. I still firmly believe she is a country greater than the sum of her parts.


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RE: Question about Britain - 6/29/2010 10:01:31 PM   
Zap


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Glad you clarified. I, like, ilovestrategy was curious about the relationship. The problems of Political correctness that poison your society, we are experiencing it here as well. I think you were referring to that?

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RE: Question about Britain - 6/29/2010 10:07:08 PM   
Punk Reaper


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quote:

I still love the UK, its rich and varied history and the contribution of all her peoples English, Scottish, Irish and Welsh, to extending civilisation and democracy across the globe. I still firmly believe she is a country greater than the sum of her parts.


Very very eloquent

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RE: Question about Britain - 6/30/2010 12:28:16 AM   
axisandallies


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Punk Reaper

Wales and Scotland have there own Parliament with some limited powers. They are also represented in the British Parliament in London where the main decisions are made about taxation, foreign policy etc... In my experience the Welsh and the Scottish are more nationalist than the English (Remember they have their own language) Ask a Scot what his nationality is and he'll probably say Scottish, ask an Englishman what his nationality is and he will probably either say English or British.

I believe that this is due to history. The English were invaded by Rome and Romanised while Scotland and Wales were able to resist and retain there culture. Same happened but to a lesser extent under the Norman invasion. The English invaded Scotland and Wales on numerous occasions suppressing the population, thus creating a stronger bond on nationalism.

In my experience we all get along fine however you will always find some people who are resentful of the past and present wrongs and are either rude or want independence. (There is to be a vote on Scottish independence some) but the majority seem to see the benefits of a United Kingdom.

Now over to Judge for his opinion


I have read that there is a movement for Scottish independence. Granted I don't think it's as big as French Canadian movement. Can I be correct in saying that there must be some sense of national pride, I mean when Scotland plays England in soccer. Also would a Scot get harassed if he had a T-shirt that said Scotland #1 walking down the streets of London?

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RE: Question about Britain - 6/30/2010 12:31:04 AM   
Bamilus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

quote:

Here in the States we call our selves Americans, regardless of which state we come from.

I thought there Americans and Texans.



Damn straight. Republic of Texas was its own country. We fought for our independence and we have the right to call ourselves Texans

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RE: Question about Britain - 6/30/2010 12:34:25 AM   
ilovestrategy


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Thanks everyone! I understand it a lot better now.

Jev and his claymore and his bits.


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RE: Question about Britain - 6/30/2010 12:36:20 AM   
axisandallies


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bamilus


quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

quote:

Here in the States we call our selves Americans, regardless of which state we come from.

I thought there Americans and Texans.



Damn straight. Republic of Texas was its own country. We fought for our independence and we have the right to call ourselves Texans

But you jumped into the United States at the first chance I'm just glad you didn't jump to the Pac-10

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RE: Question about Britain - 6/30/2010 1:06:34 AM   
Bamilus


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quote:


But you jumped into the United States at the first chance I'm just glad you didn't jump to the Pac-10


LOL! Yea, for sure. I'm glad Texas stayed in the Big-12.

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RE: Question about Britain - 6/30/2010 7:28:47 AM   
JudgeDredd


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quote:

ORIGINAL: axisandallies


quote:

ORIGINAL: Punk Reaper

Wales and Scotland have there own Parliament with some limited powers. They are also represented in the British Parliament in London where the main decisions are made about taxation, foreign policy etc... In my experience the Welsh and the Scottish are more nationalist than the English (Remember they have their own language) Ask a Scot what his nationality is and he'll probably say Scottish, ask an Englishman what his nationality is and he will probably either say English or British.

I believe that this is due to history. The English were invaded by Rome and Romanised while Scotland and Wales were able to resist and retain there culture. Same happened but to a lesser extent under the Norman invasion. The English invaded Scotland and Wales on numerous occasions suppressing the population, thus creating a stronger bond on nationalism.

In my experience we all get along fine however you will always find some people who are resentful of the past and present wrongs and are either rude or want independence. (There is to be a vote on Scottish independence some) but the majority seem to see the benefits of a United Kingdom.

Now over to Judge for his opinion


I have read that there is a movement for Scottish independence. Granted I don't think it's as big as French Canadian movement. Can I be correct in saying that there must be some sense of national pride, I mean when Scotland plays England in soccer. Also would a Scot get harassed if he had a T-shirt that said Scotland #1 walking down the streets of London?

First off, a Scottish person would NEVER wear a T-Shirt saying Scotland #1 referring to football because we're crap!

One of our pet hates is English commentators. I recall David Coulthard winning a Grand Prix and it being touted as a great British drive. Recently Jenson Button won the Drivers Championship in F1 and it was lauded "another Englishman joins the Drivers World Championship rankings". I have no problem with the commentators saying that about Jenson Button - he is English after all. My problem lies with the great British victory acheived by the Scot. It happens loads - and it's commentators just being arses. Same thing (as Jev pointed out) when people say the English held out well during the war. There were plenty of Scottish, Welsh and Irish bearing the brunt of the war. No-one means anything by it - it's just the confusion over the national issue...and we suffer from that ourselves - national identity crisis I mean.

Second, I would say this - there is confusion in the UK regarding National Pride and loyalty to the UK. It's not helped by the media. I'm a VERY proud Scot living in England. I love the country. I have a great English wife and a beautiful home in England. My daughters are obviously a mix. If you ask my eldest, she'll say she's English. If you ask my youngest she'll say she's Scottish. They both see my complete lack of support for the English rugby and football teams (that's as far as my dislikes of the English go - football and rugby). BUT - I have NEVER encouraged them to not support who they are.

I took my youngest to a Scotland England rugby game. She asked me what team she should support. I said "Whoever you want to darling - no-one will mind"...she said "I'll support Scotland when Scotland have the ball and I'll support England when England have the ball"...as it was, she was carried away with her dads support and shouted for Scotland the whole match.

My eldest daughter was supporting England in the World Cup. I was supporting whoever England played. Alot of people (mostly people not really attached to sport) don't understand why I do not support the England football and rugby teams...it's like this - England v Scotland at anything is a "derby" football game. They are bitter rivals on the field. England more often than not beat Scotland. As a Scottish fan, it's therefore not in my interests to support those teams. Anyone who knows about football in the UK would understand that a Man City fan could NOT and wouldn't dream of supporting Man United just because Man United were the only English team in the Champions League...use that view and you understand the rivalry between the Scottish and the English (in terms of sport).

Now, on a political level, Thatcher did nothing to ease the tensions in the UK when she systematically reduced Scotland in the 80's. She poured a wee bit of salt into the wound by "trying out" a controversial tax on a people she showed little respect for. Those things alone alienated the Scottish people from Central UK Government rule. Hence the push for devolution and independence.

Having said all that, I love where I live. I am Scottish living in England and proud of it. I love England as a country and as a nation. I feel sorry for them that they do not (for the most part) enjoy the same national pride I do. That's because they are just coming round to the fact that they ARE English and CAN SHOW it. And they should. I get all the "sweaty sock" jibes and the "He wouldn't buy that, he's Scottish" (meaning tight)...I take them how they are meant - humerous. And I give as good as I get.


I would say this though...there has always been a wedge between Scotland and England...it's a historical thing...but the media of today are truly hammering that wedge home. They seem determined to spoil the relationship. It's partly (again) to do with the indecision of whether we are British or Scottish, English, Irish, Welsh...but it's there and it's happening. I am forever watching the news and something is talked about and it's mentioned (for example prescriptions for drugs) that there's a law being passed in Scotland (in the devolved parliament) to make prescriptions free...they are not in England - and it's mentioned on the news. It just seems to be hammering that wedge further into that divide.

One of the guys at work came in and told me that the Scottish were selling England out the World Cup T-shirts. I have no idea if that's true, and if it is, I'm embarrassed. However, it's possible it wasn't...and if it wasn't - it's another example of the crack in unity being widend.

I was embarrassed to see the hostility from the Scottish at the last Scotland England rugby game I went to. It wasn't violent (never is at rugby games) - but I felt the hostility and I was embarrassed by it - even though I hate the England rugby team...I would've much rather they just let Jonnie Wilkinson take his kicks. No need for the boos and the shouts of "has-been". The guys a legend...the modern "Hammer of the Scots".


One last thing - (sorry for this) - but I would feel very comfortable walking around England in my Scotland rugby/football top. From what I gather, the same could not be true for an Englishman...and for that I apologise. However, I would not feel comfortable walking into a pub in a Scotland top during an England game.

I think the level of hostility between the two nations is more from Scotlands side - but through the media - it's becoming more even.

I love you England - I have a great life down here and many great friends. I'm happy being British - but I will ALWAYS be Scottish.

Sorry for all that. Please continue

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RE: Question about Britain - 6/30/2010 7:35:12 AM   
ilovestrategy


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Judgedredd spoke and all was good in the world...

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RE: Question about Britain - 6/30/2010 9:54:53 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: axisandallies

I have read that there is a movement for Scottish independence. Granted I don't think it's as big as French Canadian movement. Can I be correct in saying that there must be some sense of national pride, I mean when Scotland plays England in soccer. Also would a Scot get harassed if he had a T-shirt that said Scotland #1 walking down the streets of London?

Warspite1

To take your points in no particular order axisandallies I would say:

Yes, there is a huge amount of national pride in each of the individual countries of the United Kingdom. For example England vs Scotland is a BIG thing, especially in football or rugby. Personally I can think of very little worse than losing at rugby to any of the home countries or losing to Scotland in football; DISASTER . That said, personally if its Scotland vs France or Wales vs Germany or N.Ireland vs Italy, then I support the home country everytime.

Both JudgeDread and Jevhaddah have made points about people talking about England rather than the UK and I would say this.

When talking about wars and history, I think the reference to England is right pre 1707 e.g. Spanish Armada, but after then, the reference should be Britain (or later the United Kingdom). However, I think this is more a "foreigner" mistake than an English mistake. I do not think I have ever heard or read an English historian talking about England in WWII. But to the extent it happens - it is wrong and I perfectly understand why that would make Jevhaddah cheesed off.

The sport point is interesting. I am a huge F1 fan and my experience is that when Nigel Mansell, Damon Hill, Lewis Hamilton and Jenson Button were supported at Silverstone, the flags were 99% Union Jacks - not cross of St George. When David Coulthard was at Silverstone there were a great deal of St Andrews crosses, not Union Jack. For what its worth my view is this: if its a sport (individual or team) where British / UK are represented, then regardless of whether its Andy Murray (Scot) at Wimbledon, Lewis Hamilton (English) at Silverstone, Mary Peters (Northern Irish) in Munich or Nicole Cooke (Welsh) in Beijing, then they should be identified officially as United Kingdom (or British for ease), whilst individuals should be free to bring Scottish, English, Northern Irish or Welsh flags.

The national pride thing manifests itself in independence movements in all countries (although to be clear, not everyone that has pride in their individual country wants to split from the UK). This desire for independence can be for a variety of reasons:

- A romantic ideal (regardless of the practicalities)
- A simple belief that as a Scot/Welsh/Irish I should not be ruled by London (note at Westminster there are Irish, Scottish and Welsh Members of Parliament, but the English have the most, reflecting its larger size). There is even an independence movement within England. The Cornish believe that they are true English because they were never ruled by the Romans and therefore they want an independent Kernow (Cornwall)...
- Anger that my great great great great great etc grandfather was killed by the evil English/Welsh/Scottish/Irish in the Battle of whatever a thousand years ago .

I believe that the majority in all countries want the Union to remain in place - but this may well change in the future. As far as the romantic ideal is concerned - thats why I WANT the union to remain. Personally I love the history. Take the Battle of Waterloo. One of the heavy cavalry brigades at Waterloo was known as the Union Brigade why? because it was made up of an English an Irish and a Scottish regiment; one of the most colourful generals at that time was the Welshman Picton, the heroic performance that day by the Black Watch (perhaps the most famous Scottish regiment). Then there's the English Coldstream Guards vs the Imperial Guard. Love it!

Would a Scot get harrassed in London because he wore a t-shirt proclaiming they are No.1? Simple answer - No. As JudgeDread said, the English are a hugely tolerant people. Would I wear an English football shirt in Edinburgh, Belfast or Cardiff? Would I hell....



< Message edited by warspite1 -- 6/30/2010 10:23:31 AM >


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Post #: 20
RE: Question about Britain - 6/30/2010 11:25:13 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd


quote:

ORIGINAL: axisandallies


quote:

ORIGINAL: Punk Reaper

Wales and Scotland have there own Parliament with some limited powers. They are also represented in the British Parliament in London where the main decisions are made about taxation, foreign policy etc... In my experience the Welsh and the Scottish are more nationalist than the English (Remember they have their own language) Ask a Scot what his nationality is and he'll probably say Scottish, ask an Englishman what his nationality is and he will probably either say English or British.

I believe that this is due to history. The English were invaded by Rome and Romanised while Scotland and Wales were able to resist and retain there culture. Same happened but to a lesser extent under the Norman invasion. The English invaded Scotland and Wales on numerous occasions suppressing the population, thus creating a stronger bond on nationalism.

In my experience we all get along fine however you will always find some people who are resentful of the past and present wrongs and are either rude or want independence. (There is to be a vote on Scottish independence some) but the majority seem to see the benefits of a United Kingdom.

Now over to Judge for his opinion


I have read that there is a movement for Scottish independence. Granted I don't think it's as big as French Canadian movement. Can I be correct in saying that there must be some sense of national pride, I mean when Scotland plays England in soccer. Also would a Scot get harassed if he had a T-shirt that said Scotland #1 walking down the streets of London?


Now, on a political level, Thatcher did nothing to ease the tensions in the UK when she systematically reduced Scotland in the 80's. She poured a wee bit of salt into the wound by "trying out" a controversial tax on a people she showed little respect for. Those things alone alienated the Scottish people from Central UK Government rule. Hence the push for devolution and independence.


Warspite1

Just a word in response to JudgeDredd on this point. I guess I come from the other side of the political divide, and while I would not for one moment suggest Lady Thatcher got everything right, she did get many of the cruicially important things right to drag this country kicking and screaming into the 20th century.

One of the most obvious exceptions and one which I still struggle to this day to understand is the Poll Tax. Personally I think it was a good idea - why should a 30-year old on £50,000 a year pay no local tax just because he lives with his parents while a young family on £20,000 does?

However, this was clearly going to be a difficult sell to the populace and yet despite that, the Tory government made the most unbelievable error. They "tested" it out on the Scottish first!!! Incredibly poor judgement and one for which I 've never heard an explantion....still I guess they are still paying for that error to this day - how many Tory MP's in Scotland?


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Post #: 21
RE: Question about Britain - 6/30/2010 11:31:52 AM   
JudgeDredd


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I agree with pretty much most of your thoughts...

As for the sport - the "Union Jack" waving I think is an unfortunate product of the fact that the English don't seem to have/are not allowed/do not feel the need to be as nationalistic. I think it's the political view of the Government that have enforced that over the years. I'm glad to say (for you lot) that the attitude is changing. I haven't seen a single solitary Union Jack during the world cup - the country (near me) is covered in St Georges crosses - and that's the way it should be. As I said - it's the ambiguity that causes the problems. To be fair to commentators, it's a minefield for them.

As for not wearing an English top in Scotland - I apologise that you feel that way. As I alluded to in my post - I believe there is a hostility. as I also said in my post, I believe (fueled by the media) that hostility is becoming apparent in England now too.

However, saying that - you will encounter all sorts of levels of racism and nationalism anywhere. For example, when I left the aforementioned rugby match (Scotland v England), I was treated to sights of Medieval Knights wearing Crusade uniforms dancing on a hill to the sound of the pipes and hundreds of people (Scottish and English) looking on and cheering. On the other hand I was down in Sainsburys in our lovely town of Plymouth wearing my Scotland rugby top and was greeted with a young lad saying to his mum "Yuck mum....someone's married a Scottish bloke"...it happens. For the most part I have felt safe and welcome in England.



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Post #: 22
RE: Question about Britain - 6/30/2010 11:39:59 AM   
JudgeDredd


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And I would agree....I never did like Thatcher, but she did drag the country forward.

But a caveat is some of her policies were disgraceful...not least of all the Poll Tax (more importantly trying it on a nation she had already pissed off which stank of "yeah whatever - have some of this too). Selling council accomodation (the very reason why so many layabouts in the UK get nice shiny 3 and 4 bedroom houses!!). The dismantling of the armed forces (an the message this sent to the Argentinians) to make them all full of gung ho about Las Malvinas...

She wasn't all evil...but you'd be hard pushed to find a Scot to agree with that

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Post #: 23
RE: Question about Britain - 6/30/2010 11:47:59 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

As for not wearing an English top in Scotland - I apologise that you feel that way. As I alluded to in my post - I believe there is a hostility. as I also said in my post, I believe (fueled by the media) that hostility is becoming apparent in England now too.

However, saying that - you will encounter all sorts of levels of racism and nationalism anywhere. For example, when I left the aforementioned rugby match (Scotland v England), I was treated to sights of Medieval Knights wearing Crusade uniforms dancing on a hill to the sound of the pipes and hundreds of people (Scottish and English) looking on and cheering. On the other hand I was down in Sainsburys in our lovely town of Plymouth wearing my Scotland rugby top and was greeted with a young lad saying to his mum "Yuck mum....someone's married a Scottish bloke"...it happens. For the most part I have felt safe and welcome in England.


Warspite1

Yes, I guess the English top in Scotland is no different to wearing a Tottenham shirt at Millwall....and I wouldn't dream of doing that either!!

Its interesting you mentioned the crusade outfit. One of the difficulties is where do we draw the line? E.g. in the crowd at the England vs Germany debacle were a couple of guys in said outfit and a couple more in WWII RAF outfits complete with handlebar moustache. If the former is offensive isn't the latter? Personally, I don't find either offensive but am aware that there will always be someone who will. Difficult one that .

As for the sad comment in Plymouth, there's friendly joshing when you know someone and then there's unacceptable cr*p ........ I don't suppose you accidently clouted said moron round the head? No? Shame



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Post #: 24
RE: Question about Britain - 6/30/2010 12:02:13 PM   
Dixie


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I guess it all depends, in my experience the further south a Scot goes the more Scottish he becomes   Generally I'm happy to say I'm British, but for suitable sporting events I'm English (despite my Welsh, Scottish and COrnish blood)   I'm happy for the other Home Nations to do well when they aren't playing England, I'd love to see all four at the same international tournament.

I'd probably think twice before wearing something that marked me out as English in Scotland, although it would depend more on where I was.  I wouldn't be bothered in some areas, but in the bigger cities I think I'd steer clear (and not speak much either ).  Some of the most bitter (anti-English) people I've known have been Scottish, on the other hand some of the most friendly welcoming people I've met have been Scottish. 

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Post #: 25
RE: Question about Britain - 6/30/2010 12:04:33 PM   
Dixie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


As for the sad comment in Plymouth, there's friendly joshing when you know someone and then there's unacceptable cr*p ........ I don't suppose you accidently clouted said moron round the head? No? Shame




Don't knock Plymouth I'm a Janner, even if I did grow up surrounded by Yellow Bellies We aren't all anti-Scottish

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Post #: 26
RE: Question about Britain - 6/30/2010 12:09:01 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

The dismantling of the armed forces (an the message this sent to the Argentinians) to make them all full of gung ho about Las Malvinas...


Warspite1

The ONLY reason Lady Thatcher got re-elected in 1983 (her economic policies were not then bearing fruit) was because she proved she had balls the size of church bells and refused to allow the Argentinians to get away with taking the Falklands by force .

And yet, the only reason the crackpot Junta thought now is the time to invade was because of the tories "defence review" that effectively told Galtieri and co to help themselves.

They say it's better to be born lucky than rich......or as Greavsie would say - it's a funny old game isn't it?

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 6/30/2010 12:25:45 PM >


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Post #: 27
RE: Question about Britain - 6/30/2010 12:13:17 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


As for the sad comment in Plymouth, there's friendly joshing when you know someone and then there's unacceptable cr*p ........ I don't suppose you accidently clouted said moron round the head? No? Shame




Don't knock Plymouth I'm a Janner, even if I did grow up surrounded by Yellow Bellies We aren't all anti-Scottish

Warspite1

Dixie - I wouldn't dream of knocking Plymouth. Although I support Spurs, I have a huge soft spot for all three Devon clubs - Plymouth Argyle being my fave - because Devon is my favourite county and I spent many a summer holiday as a kid in that part of the world. My brother then lived near Plymouth for many years after he joined the Royal Navy. Definately no knocking of that great naval city from me .

That kid still needs a slap though

Edited for rubbish spelling and too much information.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 6/30/2010 12:45:34 PM >


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Post #: 28
RE: Question about Britain - 6/30/2010 12:57:38 PM   
JudgeDredd


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I was on holiday in Dartmoor. Beautiful part of the country, Devon is.

As for the wee fella, nah...I just walked on. I did think about saying "yuck...Sharon, look...someones had a wee English bairn"...but then again...like I say - it happens. Fortunately, in 23 years of living in England I've never felt like I shouldn't be here. :-)

And Thatcher did have balls the size of church bells. I concede most definitely she wasn't all bad. Though she did instigate the demise of the Conservative party from Scotland.

As for the Scotland England rugby/football thing...I just can't. I've tried and I can't. I mean - we've been gubbed by you so many times, it makes supporting you impossible

I support your cricket team though... although with the rise of a Scottish team (should I say "creation" instead of "rise"?), that all may change one day

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Post #: 29
RE: Question about Britain - 6/30/2010 1:23:42 PM   
Grey Hunter

 

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At the end of the day, its all a (fairly) friendly rivally - except for some parts of Wales, who seem to really take it to heart. Three years living in a welsh nationalist area as an Englishman really taught me to hate the nationalists - and the best ways to wind them up.

I can see why having three "countries" as part of one would confuse people, but then Britain has always been about taking the best parts of things. (langauges, ideas, people, small countries, food, that kind of trivial thing.) At the end of the day, none of the three would survive half as well without the others, and none of them have been real countries in hundreds of years.

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