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Kami Experiment - 6/22/2010 4:38:40 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 6192
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: online 		In my on-going experimentation with my late-war game, "just to see", I decided to challenge the HI kami force with three CV TFs, all in the same hex, CAP at 60, late-war fighters with pilots at 70-80 for the most part.

Below is an edited/chopped down combat report, all from 7 July 1945. For all you guys still in the early war, this is just to give an idea of the carnage possible, even in mid-summer 1945, with the AI losing several divisions a week ashore, all of Indo-China, Malaysia gone, Hong Kong and the PI 100% taken, the merchant marine reduced to under 20 hulls, etc.

Again, I did this as an experiment, but it still is useful learning. The AI NEVER gives up. I haven't totaled up the exchanges, but I think I shot down at least 500-700 planes. They kept on coming. On some attacks I had EIGHT of those red vector lines back to their bases, all coming for my precious carriers.

I thought of rolling back to an earlier save, but didn't. The Russians activate in three weeks, and I want to see how I do with no carriers.
_______________________________________________________________
Morning Air attack on TF, near Aogashima at 113,66

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 160 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 53 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 75
A6M3 Zero x 32
A6M3a Zero x 9
A6M5b Zero x 47
A6M5c Zero x 171
A7M2 Sam x 30
B6N1 Jill x 36
B6N2a Jill x 25
B7A2 Grace x 23
D3A2 Val x 21
D4Y2 Judy x 17
D4Y3 Judy x 21
D4Y4 Judy x 78
N1K1-J George x 16
N1K2-J George x 32
P1Y2 Frances x 13
Q1W1 Lorna x 3
Ki-21-IIa Sally x 5
Ki-27b Nate x 54
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 61
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 23
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 8
Ki-43-IV Oscar x 32
Ki-45 KAIc Nick x 3
Ki-84a Frank x 55
Ki-84b Frank x 33
Ki-84r Frank x 30
Ki-93-Ia x 3
Ki-100-I Tony x 41



Allied aircraft
F4U-1D Corsair x 230
F6F-5 Hellcat x 247


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 45 destroyed
A6M3 Zero: 15 destroyed
A6M3a Zero: 1 destroyed
A6M5b Zero: 18 destroyed
A6M5c Zero: 17 destroyed
B6N1 Jill: 24 destroyed
B6N2a Jill: 17 destroyed
B7A2 Grace: 14 destroyed
D3A2 Val: 10 destroyed
D4Y2 Judy: 11 destroyed
D4Y3 Judy: 15 destroyed
D4Y4 Judy: 26 destroyed, 1 damaged
N1K1-J George: 2 destroyed
N1K2-J George: 1 destroyed
P1Y2 Frances: 3 destroyed, 1 damaged
Q1W1 Lorna: 1 destroyed
Ki-21-IIa Sally: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged
Ki-27b Nate: 4 destroyed
Ki-43-IIa Oscar: 19 destroyed
Ki-43-IIb Oscar: 7 destroyed
Ki-43-IV Oscar: 8 destroyed
Ki-45 KAIc Nick: 1 destroyed
Ki-84a Frank: 8 destroyed
Ki-84r Frank: 11 destroyed
Ki-100-I Tony: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F6F-5 Hellcat: 3 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Lake Champlain, Kamikaze hits 19, and is sunk
CV Randolph, Kamikaze hits 23, and is sunk
CV Intrepid, Kamikaze hits 10, heavy fires, heavy damage
CV Bunker Hill, Kamikaze hits 6, on fire
CV Bon Homme Richard, Kamikaze hits 21, and is sunk
DD Talbot, Kamikaze hits 2, and is sunk
DE Spangler, Kamikaze hits 1, and is sunk
DE Willmarth, Kamikaze hits 3, and is sunk
DD McCook, Kamikaze hits 4, and is sunk
DE Gunason, Kamikaze hits 4, and is sunk
DE Lawrence C. Taylor, Kamikaze hits 2, and is sunk
DE Dennis, Kamikaze hits 7, and is sunk
DE Lamons, Kamikaze hits 1, and is sunk
DE Connolly, Kamikaze hits 2, and is sunk
DE Leslie L. B. Knox, Kamikaze hits 2, and is sunk
DE Jobb, Kamikaze hits 5, and is sunk
DE Charles J. Kimmel, Kamikaze hits 2, and is sunk
DE Cecil J. Doyle, Kamikaze hits 4, and is sunk
DE Eisele, Kamikaze hits 4, and is sunk
DD Ross

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Lake Champlain
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Bon Homme Richard
Lawrence C. Taylor dead in the water ...
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Randolph
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Intrepid
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Bunker Hill
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring DE Jobb
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring DE Cecil J. Doyle
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring DE Dennis
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring DE Eisele
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring DE Willmarth
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring DE Connolly
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring DD McCook


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Aogashima at 113,66

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 72 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 4
A6M3 Zero x 9
A6M5b Zero x 16
A6M5c Zero x 23
A7M2 Sam x 12
E13A1 Jake x 3
E13A1b Jake x 16
E7K2 Alf x 27
N1K2-J George x 20
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 4
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 8
Ki-43-IV Oscar x 14
Ki-84a Frank x 16
Ki-84b Frank x 3
Ki-93-Ia x 3



Allied aircraft
F4U-1D Corsair x 211
F6F-5 Hellcat x 229


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed
A6M3 Zero: 3 destroyed
A6M5b Zero: 6 destroyed
A6M5c Zero: 11 destroyed
A7M2 Sam: 3 destroyed
E13A1 Jake: 2 destroyed
E13A1b Jake: 10 destroyed
E7K2 Alf: 14 destroyed
N1K2-J George: 6 destroyed
Ki-43-IIb Oscar: 1 destroyed
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar: 4 destroyed
Ki-43-IV Oscar: 5 destroyed
Ki-84a Frank: 5 destroyed
Ki-84b Frank: 2 destroyed
Ki-93-Ia: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1D Corsair: 1 destroyed
F6F-5 Hellcat: 1 destroyed


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Aogashima at 113,66

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 72 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 1
A6M5 Zero x 6
A6M5b Zero x 5
A6M5c Zero x 7
A7M2 Sam x 8
E13A1 Jake x 9
E7K2 Alf x 27
K11W1 Shiragiku x 36
N1K2-J George x 2
Ki-84a Frank x 6
Ki-93-Ia x 1



Allied aircraft
F4U-1D Corsair x 175
F6F-5 Hellcat x 192


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 3 destroyed
A6M5b Zero: 3 destroyed
A6M5c Zero: 2 destroyed
A7M2 Sam: 2 destroyed
E13A1 Jake: 5 destroyed
E7K2 Alf: 17 destroyed
K11W1 Shiragiku: 27 destroyed
N1K2-J George: 1 destroyed
Ki-84a Frank: 3 destroyed
Ki-93-Ia: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1D Corsair: 1 destroyed
F6F-5 Hellcat: 1 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Aogashima at 113,66

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 160 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 68 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 33
A6M3a Zero x 29
A6M5b Zero x 22
A6M5c Zero x 7
A7M2 Sam x 1
B5M1 Mabel x 5
B5N2 Kate x 35
B6N2a Jill x 75
D3A2 Val x 31
D4Y3 Judy x 25
D4Y4 Judy x 16
E16A1 Paul x 16
G4M3a Betty x 10
Ki-27b Nate x 18
Ki-36 Ida x 10
Ki-46-II Dinah x 24
Ki-93-Ia x 6
Ki-115a Tsurugi x 10



Allied aircraft
F4U-1D Corsair x 144
F6F-5 Hellcat x 162


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 12 destroyed
A6M3a Zero: 6 destroyed
A6M5b Zero: 2 destroyed
A6M5c Zero: 1 destroyed
A7M2 Sam: 1 destroyed
B5M1 Mabel: 3 destroyed
B5N2 Kate: 3 destroyed, 1 damaged
B6N2a Jill: 22 destroyed, 5 damaged
D3A2 Val: 6 destroyed
D4Y3 Judy: 5 destroyed, 2 damaged
D4Y4 Judy: 9 destroyed
E16A1 Paul: 3 destroyed, 1 damaged
G4M3a Betty: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged
Ki-27b Nate: 3 destroyed
Ki-36 Ida: 4 destroyed
Ki-46-II Dinah: 17 destroyed
Ki-93-Ia: 2 destroyed
Ki-115a Tsurugi: 4 destroyed


Allied Ships
CV Hancock, Kamikaze hits 5, heavy fires, heavy damage
CV Bunker Hill, on fire
CV Franklin, Kamikaze hits 3, on fire
DD Preston II, Kamikaze hits 1
CV Intrepid, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Ross

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Bunker Hill
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Intrepid


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Aogashima at 113,66

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 51 minutes

Japanese aircraft
B5N2 Kate x 24
D3A2 Val x 12
D4Y3 Judy x 13
Ki-57-II Topsy x 3



Allied aircraft
F4U-1D Corsair x 100
F6F-5 Hellcat x 116


Japanese aircraft losses
B5N2 Kate: 15 destroyed
D3A2 Val: 8 destroyed
D4Y3 Judy: 6 destroyed
Ki-57-II Topsy: 1 destroyed




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Aogashima at 113,66

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 75 minutes

Japanese aircraft
K11W1 Shiragiku x 24



Allied aircraft
F4U-1D Corsair x 75
F6F-5 Hellcat x 97


Japanese aircraft losses
K11W1 Shiragiku: 15 destroyed




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Aogashima at 113,66

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 160 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 56 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3 Zero x 9
A6M5b Zero x 32
A7M2 Sam x 13
B6N2a Jill x 14
B7A2 Grace x 15
D4Y4 Judy x 24
G4M3a Betty x 15
Ki-27b Nate x 18
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 18
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 10
Ki-43-IV Oscar x 5
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 40
Ki-45 KAIc Nick x 6
Ki-48-IIb Lily x 7
Ki-84a Frank x 9
Ki-84b Frank x 10
Ki-84r Frank x 10
Ki-102b Randy x 17



Allied aircraft
F4U-1D Corsair x 66
F6F-5 Hellcat x 90


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3 Zero: 2 destroyed
A6M5b Zero: 20 destroyed
A7M2 Sam: 3 destroyed
B6N2a Jill: 10 destroyed
B7A2 Grace: 10 destroyed
D4Y4 Judy: 16 destroyed
G4M3a Betty: 11 destroyed
Ki-43-IIa Oscar: 9 destroyed
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar: 5 destroyed
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 28 destroyed
Ki-45 KAIc Nick: 4 destroyed
Ki-48-IIb Lily: 3 destroyed
Ki-84b Frank: 2 destroyed
Ki-84r Frank: 6 destroyed
Ki-102b Randy: 11 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1D Corsair: 2 destroyed
F6F-5 Hellcat: 4 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Franklin, Kamikaze hits 33, and is sunk
CV Bunker Hill, Kamikaze hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
CV Hancock, heavy fires, heavy damage


Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Bunker Hill
Also attacking ...
Also attacking ...
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Franklin


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Aogashima at 113,66

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 36 minutes

Japanese aircraft
D4Y4 Judy x 12
Ki-27b Nate x 9
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 30
Ki-43-IV Oscar x 21
Ki-84a Frank x 11



Allied aircraft
F4U-1D Corsair x 47
F6F-5 Hellcat x 67


Japanese aircraft losses
D4Y4 Judy: 8 destroyed
Ki-27b Nate: 3 destroyed
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar: 11 destroyed
Ki-43-IV Oscar: 7 destroyed
Ki-84a Frank: 6 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1D Corsair: 1 destroyed
F6F-5 Hellcat: 1 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Aogashima at 113,66

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 36 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5b Zero x 5
Ki-84a Frank x 4
Ki-84r Frank x 10



Allied aircraft
F4U-1D Corsair x 32
F6F-5 Hellcat x 49


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5b Zero: 3 destroyed
Ki-84a Frank: 3 destroyed
Ki-84r Frank: 2 destroyed


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Aogashima at 113,66

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 31 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-84a Frank x 7
Ki-84r Frank x 30



Allied aircraft
F4U-1D Corsair x 27
F6F-5 Hellcat x 44


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-84a Frank: 1 destroyed
Ki-84r Frank: 18 destroyed, 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1D Corsair: 2 destroyed
F6F-5 Hellcat: 1 destroyed


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Aogashima at 113,66

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 30 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 12
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 9
Ki-84a Frank x 2



Allied aircraft
F4U-1D Corsair x 21
F6F-5 Hellcat x 34


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-IIb Oscar: 4 destroyed
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar: 3 destroyed
Ki-84a Frank: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1D Corsair: 1 destroyed
F6F-5 Hellcat: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Bunker Hill, heavy fires, heavy damage


Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Bunker Hill

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Aogashima at 113,66

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 30 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 7
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 7



Allied aircraft
F4U-1D Corsair x 15
F6F-5 Hellcat x 29


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-IIb Oscar: 3 destroyed
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar: 3 destroyed


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Aogashima at 113,66

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 36 minutes

Japanese aircraft
D4Y4 Judy x 12
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 3



Allied aircraft
F4U-1D Corsair x 15
F6F-5 Hellcat x 26


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-IIb Oscar: 2 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Aogashima at 113,66

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 35 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-48-IIb Lily x 9



Allied aircraft
F4U-1D Corsair x 15
F6F-5 Hellcat x 26


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-48-IIb Lily: 3 destroyed










Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 6/23/2010 12:06:41 AM >

_____________________________

The Moose
Post #: 1
RE: Kami Experiment - 6/22/2010 4:54:22 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6582
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		That's interesting.

It would appear that there ~may~ be a max strike size of 999 aircraft.
That first incoming strike was 999 aircraft, opposed by 477 fighters.
The kamis also scored 122 hits, from those AC that got past CAP.

Too bad we don't know how many got past CAP.
But if CAP shot down 50%, that's a 24% hit rate. Seems high?

I think I'll tally up the follow-up strikes...
-F-

_____________________________

"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me


(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 2
RE: Kami Experiment - 6/22/2010 5:23:00 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 9037
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Wow, I bet Miller gets an eyefull of this and the daydreams and fantasies and plans and hopes for a brighter future commence in earnest.

Couldn't ya have kept his info to yerself, Mr. Winkle?

:)

(in reply to Feinder)
Post #: 3
RE: Kami Experiment - 6/22/2010 5:57:42 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 14870
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: Twin Cities, MN
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Wow, I bet Miller gets an eyefull of this and the daydreams and fantasies and plans and hopes for a brighter future commence in earnest.

Couldn't ya have kept his info to yerself, Mr. Winkle?

:)

Canoe-I don't know if it'll make you feel any better or not, but Miller's got to have thousands of those buggers stored up by now.

_____________________________


(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 4
RE: Kami Experiment - 6/22/2010 6:22:40 PM   
che200


Posts: 871
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Malta
Status: offline 		Did your CAP use differant altitude bands ?

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 5
RE: Kami Experiment - 6/22/2010 10:21:24 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 6201
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		The big weakness that I see is in Allied AA-which by 1945 was shooting down the bulk of the attacking planes-not the CAP. Coordination might be an issue as well as a 1000 plane raid would saturate any target.

_____________________________

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." Godwin's Law

(in reply to che200)
Post #: 6
RE: Kami Experiment - 6/22/2010 10:59:04 PM   
JeffK


Posts: 4674
Joined: 1/26/2005
From: In a little tin hut in a big tin shed
Status: offline 		In Andy's downfall scenario I found similar swamping attacks compounded by Allied CAP wearing out.

I was lucky enough to escape with my CV though CVE suffered heavily in other kami attacks.

I found in the scenario, and I'm unsure if it would happen in the campaign, that the japanese air forces could coordinate
attacks from 6+ bases in Japan & Korea which is odd given the smashing they had taken for 3+ years.

Maybe toning down the Air HQ would see just as many sorties but with less chance of continual "Bomber Command/8th AF" sized attack.
(Yes they could put one up, but not 3-4 times a day for a week)

_____________________________

Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 7
RE: Kami Experiment - 6/22/2010 11:44:44 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 6192
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

That's interesting.

It would appear that there ~may~ be a max strike size of 999 aircraft.
That first incoming strike was 999 aircraft, opposed by 477 fighters.
The kamis also scored 122 hits, from those AC that got past CAP.

Too bad we don't know how many got past CAP.
But if CAP shot down 50%, that's a 24% hit rate. Seems high?

I think I'll tally up the follow-up strikes...
-F-


I was weeping too hard to do the math.

One thing I should say, this was a CAP/light AA vs. kami fight. I had no BBs or CAs in the TFs; they're all off in bombardment groups working over Formosa and Iwo Jima. I think I still would have lost the carriers with some heavy AA castles, but it would have been different math.

The AI, before this engagement, had lost over 41,000 planes during the war, with Oscar variants by far the highest-loss models. Yet it could still mount an effort such as this.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to Feinder)
Post #: 8
RE: Kami Experiment - 6/22/2010 11:45:36 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 6192
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Wow, I bet Miller gets an eyefull of this and the daydreams and fantasies and plans and hopes for a brighter future commence in earnest.

Couldn't ya have kept his info to yerself, Mr. Winkle?

:)


(Whistling, whistling . . .)

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 9
RE: Kami Experiment - 6/22/2010 11:48:54 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 6192
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: che200

Did your CAP use differant altitude bands ?


I had the Hellcats at 30,000, and most of the Corsairs at 25,000. I think I had one Corsair squadron up at 30,000 as well. All CVs were at 60 CAP, 40 Rest.

To be honest, I was stunned by the volume inherent in the attack. I figured I'd be bloodied, but I thought 2-3 CVs, not what I got. The degree of co-ordinaiton was stunning as well, as was the range of airframes the AI scraped together. Everything from Ferraris to Model-Ts.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to che200)
Post #: 10
RE: Kami Experiment - 6/23/2010 6:28:50 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 3843
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

The big weakness that I see is in Allied AA-which by 1945 was shooting down the bulk of the attacking planes-not the CAP. Coordination might be an issue as well as a 1000 plane raid would saturate any target.


Allied AA in ´45 did never face more than a couple of Kamikaze attacks at once. Concentrated AA against singled out targets.

What is interesting is the hit percentage.
Kamikaze attacks were easy compared to a bombing or torpedo run (when you have the nerve to call something like flying into assured death "easy").
Not much triangulation, no release altitude, the ability to correct until the last moment, no need to concentrate on keeping the plane safe,...

Don´t forget that in RL the Japanese kamikaze pilots where "trained" at best, and had only 3-5 logged hours at worst.
Still they hit.
Most Japanese players will have "elite" Kamikaze squads that would also receive quite an impressive hit percentage in a conventional attack.
(I wonder what the exp stats of the AI planes of your attack were, Bullwinkle).
With attacks this huge I find it only natural that it overwhelms CAP. Makes staging bases something every Allied player will need dearly when he ventures this
far.
I would not dare to move my CVs in range of more than one or two HI bases at once, and this only after I visited Japan with heavy raids for a couple of months.


Nice test and a lesson to behold for any Allied player.


_____________________________

S**t happens in war.

All hail the superior ones!

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 11
RE: Kami Experiment - 6/23/2010 7:47:06 AM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 6192
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: online
quote:

Don´t forget that in RL the Japanese kamikaze pilots where "trained" at best, and had only 3-5 logged hours at worst.
Still they hit.
Most Japanese players will have "elite" Kamikaze squads that would also receive quite an impressive hit percentage in a conventional attack.
(I wonder what the exp stats of the AI planes of your attack were, Bullwinkle).


The last time I looked at the Japanese side was in about the third week of June 1945. The pilot pools were pretty full (in the low thousands I think), but experience was universally in the 20s and 30s. I think the Reserve had about fifty total pilots of both fighter and bomber specialty with experience ranging from maybe 50 to the low 70s. I think there were about five in total over 60.

I looked at the detail from the report that I chopped away to make it shorter. Every kami carried ordnance (I don't thnk all did in RL), usually x2 250kg bombs. One bomber type had x4.

I also misremembered the CAP altitudes. The majority of both Hellcats and Corsairs were at 25,000. A few units of both were at 30,000. At raid detection, most of the scrambling planes trying to join CAP were between 4000 and 12, 000 feet.

quote:

I would not dare to move my CVs in range of more than one or two HI bases at once, and this only after I visited Japan with heavy raids for a couple of months.


The problem is that, approaching from the south or southwest (Marianas or PI) if you're in range of one you're in range of eight. Coming from the Kuriles it's better, but the invasion LCU staging is harder, and there's the wnter penalty to consider.


_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 12
RE: Kami Experiment - 6/23/2010 8:27:51 AM   
Stelteck

 

Posts: 31
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: online 		Kamikhaze are fortunately one shoot, and you never really choose the target.

How about trying to lure the kamikhaze swarm to death into attacking low profile target such as destroyers' pack before engaging carriers to range ?

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 13
RE: Kami Experiment - 6/23/2010 10:33:44 AM   
castor troy


Posts: 12000
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

Kamikhaze are fortunately one shoot, and you never really choose the target.

How about trying to lure the kamikhaze swarm to death into attacking low profile target such as destroyers' pack before engaging carriers to range ?



Kamikaze are one shot but so were the Allied carriers in that case.

_____________________________


(in reply to Stelteck)
Post #: 14
RE: Kami Experiment - 6/23/2010 12:09:28 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 5493
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/now in Malta
Status: offline 		I think you might have flown your CAP too high. Even with Hellcats, I often find best altitude being the default 15k. Could try to stagger Hellcats 15k and Corsairs to 20k.

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(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 15
RE: Kami Experiment - 6/23/2010 12:59:32 PM   
xj900uk

 

Posts: 1218
Joined: 3/22/2007
Status: offline 		Should have had some CVE groups around heavily armed (if necessarily get some USMC squadrons) with Corsairs, Hellcats and late-model Wildcats to help with the air-combat.
Also, I would have brought in B29's and pounded potential kamikaze airbases (ie all of them) from China for several weeks before venturing that close to the HI's...
Also I would have had a couple of BB's around as well, although you write they are all busy shore-bombarding in Formosa and elsewhere. In RL BB's with their loads of armour plate were far better at absorbing kamikaze hits and also took a fair deal from the inexperienced Japanese pilots who often simply went after the largest target they could see, irrespective of the fact that they had always been told to attack carriers first)
Just my two-penneth...

< Message edited by xj900uk -- 6/23/2010 1:00:46 PM >

(in reply to Sardaukar)
Post #: 16
RE: Kami Experiment - 6/23/2010 1:01:47 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 5493
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/now in Malta
Status: offline 		I also think that AAA ammunition numbers are too low for capital ships, they run out very quickly and later of attacks are often unopposed by AA.

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(in reply to xj900uk)
Post #: 17
RE: Kami Experiment - 6/23/2010 1:11:15 PM   
xj900uk

 

Posts: 1218
Joined: 3/22/2007
Status: offline 		Agreed. Only way you could even replenish at nightfall was if you had a support convoy in the same hex of ocean. Which would have invited attention from the kamikaze's beforehand - check out some RL footage on the net of what happens when a kamikaze attacks an ammunition ship

(in reply to Sardaukar)
Post #: 18
RE: Kami Experiment - 6/23/2010 1:19:41 PM   
spence

 

Posts: 3640
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: vermont
Status: offline 		Could it be that a single coordinated airstrike by 1000 planes never occurred to the Japanese High Command? What fools they were for mounting such piddling little raids (on a good day only 1/6th to 1/10 that size) throughout the war.

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 19
RE: Kami Experiment - 6/23/2010 3:17:36 PM   
bklooste

 

Posts: 1103
Joined: 4/10/2006
Status: offline 		The reason they didnt hisorically was because the allies flattened most of the air fields with long range bombers , this made coordination difficult and they never approached the HI in small forces.. If they approached they would have massive AA.

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Post #: 20
RE: Kami Experiment - 6/23/2010 10:23:53 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 6192
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

I think you might have flown your CAP too high. Even with Hellcats, I often find best altitude being the default 15k. Could try to stagger Hellcats 15k and Corsairs to 20k.


You're probably right. In retrospect I would have done several things differently. As I said, I was stunned by the volume of planes that came all at once. I was not expecting a 1000-plane raid.

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Post #: 21
RE: Kami Experiment - 6/23/2010 10:26:04 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 6192
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

Kamikhaze are fortunately one shoot, and you never really choose the target.

How about trying to lure the kamikhaze swarm to death into attacking low profile target such as destroyers' pack before engaging carriers to range ?


Be caerful. You'll have shouts of "Gamey!!!" following you soon. Just look at the response when a PBEM player risked ONE DD by sailing it into danger.

I think I could have done that, but I don't know if the AI code would have sent the same volume of attackers, so it might be even. OTOH, the AI pool stocks are high enough that it could stage several 1000-plane strikes and still have some left over.

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Post #: 22
RE: Kami Experiment - 6/23/2010 10:27:25 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 6192
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: xj900uk

Agreed. Only way you could even replenish at nightfall was if you had a support convoy in the same hex of ocean. Which would have invited attention from the kamikaze's beforehand - check out some RL footage on the net of what happens when a kamikaze attacks an ammunition ship


I'm also playing 2-day turns at this point.

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RE: Kami Experiment - 6/24/2010 8:03:29 AM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 5493
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/now in Malta
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

I think you might have flown your CAP too high. Even with Hellcats, I often find best altitude being the default 15k. Could try to stagger Hellcats 15k and Corsairs to 20k.


You're probably right. In retrospect I would have done several things differently. As I said, I was stunned by the volume of planes that came all at once. I was not expecting a 1000-plane raid.


You are not the only one! I was quite amazed when reading that.

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"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-


(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 24
RE: Kami Experiment - 6/24/2010 8:41:49 AM   
Stelteck

 

Posts: 31
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

Kamikhaze are fortunately one shoot, and you never really choose the target.

How about trying to lure the kamikhaze swarm to death into attacking low profile target such as destroyers' pack before engaging carriers to range ?


Be caerful. You'll have shouts of "Gamey!!!" following you soon. Just look at the response when a PBEM player risked ONE DD by sailing it into danger.

I think I could have done that, but I don't know if the AI code would have sent the same volume of attackers, so it might be even. OTOH, the AI pool stocks are high enough that it could stage several 1000-plane strikes and still have some left over.


If i remember well, for the final invasion of japan, US headquarter seriously think about sending first a pack of AAA ships in order to lure the japanese and shoot down the kamikhaze.

As kamikhaze protection, US fleet also use a lot of "picket" destroyers, far closer to ennemy than the main fleet, with big radars in order to provide long range warning of incoming raids. And casualties for these destroyers were quite high...


< Message edited by Stelteck -- 6/24/2010 8:42:38 AM >

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 25
RE: Kami Experiment - 6/24/2010 9:10:41 AM   
Commander Cody


Posts: 677
Joined: 7/4/2003
From: Seoul, Korea
Status: offline 		Well, I'm not a huge fan of shore bombardment in AE, since it seems to have been nerfed from stock. You might do a lot better with those BBs, CAs and CBs in your CV TFs. That said, a 1000-plane kamikaze raid seems ludicrous at this point.

Against the AI on "historical" in Scenario 8, so don't take this as a boast, I invaded Kyushu in Nov. '43 or thereabouts (memory not too sharp) and was up to Osaka by Jan. 1, 1944 when auto victory kicked in. By the time I was in Japanese waters I didn't suffer more than the random hit and don't recall any kami raids (although I was good about not sending unprotected TFs around). Could it be you stick to a historical timeline you're screwed? That by mid-45 Japan is too strong? Another factor: The AI sends AKs like moths to fire into killzones so when I checked the Japanese on Jan. 1, 1944 he didn't have any AKs, TKs or AKLs other than about four vessels getting repaired in Yokohama or something. So, I'm not sure how well that economy was functioning.

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