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RE: 27th and 28th March 1942

 
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RE: 27th and 28th March 1942 - 8/19/2010 5:43:57 PM   
topeverest

 

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I respect HMS resolution's point of view, but I disagree. Going toe to toe with the KB is exactly the decisive battle I would be looking for if I were the Empire. I believe your current tactic of staying out of his reach and interdicting the sea lanes is much more effective. This is because his supply line in tenuous and his bases weak relative to yours. Better use for the carriers would be another raid of sakhalin, or at any point in his supply chain up to Hilo.

I also suggest a major bombardment attack on the overstacked base at Hilo with as many cruisers as you think you can spare. A BB too if at PH. Hilo is 5 hexes from Pearl. Using waypoints, you can sprint out and back before KB can strike. You should be able to crater the overstacked airfield and decimate the air compliment in a single decisive blow. Follow it up with a massive air bombardment in the morning, and you will have gone a long ways to turning the campaign.

Anyway, from my backseat, you are doing pretty well in defense of PH.

_____________________________

Andy M

(in reply to yubari)
Post #: 61
RE: 27th and 28th March 1942 - 8/19/2010 5:51:14 PM   
HMS Resolution


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Respectfully, I must differ with my esteemed colleague. Where's the nearest base the IJN carriers can retire to for repairs? Any serious damage puts them in grave danger, and will likely force them to retire. The enemy must be overreaching himself, and if he loses control of the air over Pearl, he stands to suffer serious losses in men (and ships, if he tries to extricate his forces). Obviously, any battle involves a certain element of risk, but I think the potential benefits strongly outweigh the potential losses. Your carriers are fresh, his are not. I think striking instead of beginning the next upgrade cycle is a fine plan.

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(in reply to topeverest)
Post #: 62
RE: 27th and 28th March 1942 - 8/19/2010 6:29:55 PM   
paullus99


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Well, since he does know where the KB is (although is probably is still a powerful force & should have most, if not all of its torpedo loads available), it does raise an interesting question of whether or not he should seek battle.

I am a huge fan of attritional tactics - as PH is much closer to the production centers (and reinforcements) than the Japanese are at the moment. Also, if you can inflict major damage now, even with some losses on your part, you will only continue to get stronger.

Something to think about - fortune favors the brave.

_____________________________

Never Underestimate the Power of a Small Tactical Nuclear Weapon...

(in reply to HMS Resolution)
Post #: 63
29th and 30th March 1942 - 8/21/2010 12:15:28 PM   
yubari

 

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Interesting discussion gentlemen. I thought long and hard about the matter and eventually decided that I would try for a battle. Unfortunately on opening the turn, I found that it was impossible to move the Saratoga out of the shipyard, it is still yet to complete its March upgrade. With 11 days left to completion, the US fleet should be ready to sail by about the 10th April and hence to arrive at Hawaii by the 17th or so.

Strategy.
I view the game mainly about being able to keep the KB afloat as long as possible. As the allied player my goal is to sink the Japanese carriers for the lowest possible losses. I do not think that I will get a better chance to take on the KB until mid-1944, the improved Japan in this mod will receive three improved Shokakus instead of the Shinano and Taiho in 1943 and additionally, the A6M8, comparable in performance to the Hellcat becomes available in mid 1943. Nevertheless, Japan is now in a very difficult position; they need to keep the KB in position near Hawaii to stop Kona airfield being closed but by doing so they are removing their main offensive weapon and putting it at great risk. By apparently splitting up the carrier force to support an invasion of India he is putting it at even greater risk to support an attack that I believe will fail. The Indian army of May 1942 is many times more powerful than that which starts the game.

If I was playing Japan here then I would cancel the Indian Invasion and reunite the carrier fleet, but I don`t think that FatR will be able to stop attacking. There is another possibility that he has constructed this very situation to get the US fleet into battle at which point the mini KB suddenly appears, but I dont think that he is that sneaky.

Hawaii.
More Japanese destroyers enter Pearl Harbour sinking a PT boat. It is disappointing that none have yet hit a mine. A bomber attack on the 29th meets a CAP of 30 fighters mostly from the Japanese carriers. In heavy fighting, 6 B-17s are shot down (A2A and ops) for 2 Zeroes but a further 17 Zeroes are destroyed on the ground. I have collected nearly all of the B-17s available on the map, I should be able to get 50 into attack at the maximum, and they shall attack again on the 1st April, they should be able to close the airfield again.

I estimate that there are about 100 fighters left on the KB, if I could fight a carrier battle where 30 of them are providing LRCAP over Hilo, then there would be a chance to inflict a crushing blow; at this distance from port, any carrier taking three bomb hits would likely sink.

Additionally, there are two more cruiser fleets in the area. I want at least one of these to try to bombard Johnston Island with its valuable support ships in harbour.

On land, Hilo has built its forts back up to level 2, and I am trying to air transport in as many troops as possible. I was resigned to losing this base a few turns ago but it looks as though it has a chance of surviving.

DEI.
A Japanese submarine fires torpedoes at the BC Repulse and hits it, fortunately with a dud. He now has to know that the whole Royal Navy is at sea which I am not too unhappy about. Japanese units, presumably marching overland, take the first city on the overland railway route to Sabang. I think that I have just about enough troops to stop these units. The only sign of shipping at Singapore is a light cruiser fleet, according to my recon B-25s.

China.
A couple of corps are routed on the retreat from Pucheng but the main body of troops manages to flee. I should now be able to hold what I have left of China no matter how many IJA bombers are operating in theatre, most of the Chinese troops are now fortified in good defensive terrain.

India.
A huge number of reinforcements arrive on the 30th March, including a full Indian division, a small British division and three British Brigades. All of the British brigades are set to plan for their target, they shall be the front line troops when I make my first invasion, hopefully in early July.

(in reply to paullus99)
Post #: 64
RE: 29th and 30th March 1942 - 8/21/2010 10:14:05 PM   
topeverest

 

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Dissent in the CIC, Just Like IRL...

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Andy M

(in reply to yubari)
Post #: 65
31st March to 2nd April 1942 - 8/25/2010 4:10:14 PM   
yubari

 

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That sounds about right

Hawaii.
Three more action packed turns.
The Ise and Yamashiro bombard Hilo on the 31st and Japan tries a shock attack which takes the forts back down to level 1 but causes the Japanese 5 times the number of casualties, just over 3000. Before the attack, the Japanese have 990AV compared to the 277 of the allies. A Japanese attack on the 1st April suffers badly as well, getting to 1 to 2 odds, suffering more than four times the casualties and seeing over 100 Japanese squads destroyed.

In retaliation, the US launches a full scale aerial bombardment against the airfield at Kona and it is a complete disaster. Sweeping allied fighters meet a huge Zero CAP and are absolutely murdered, 37 allied planes are shot down for 1 (!) Zero. The following on bombers also suffer and 5 B-17s are shot down as well as a number of mediums.
On the 2nd April, I send the B-17s in at night and they perform fairly well, destroying around 8 fighters (including Oscars) and getting around 30 hits on the airfield. However, the Japanese manage to build the airfield up to level 3 on the same turn. As the airfield was completely flattened at size one just five turns ago, it is evident that the Japanes have a huge number of engineers there.

Also on the 2nd, 2 allied cruisers reach Johnston Island and bombard, putting shells into an AS and an AG, getting about 120 hits on the airfield and destroying 4 planes on the ground including 2 Emilys (arriving in early 1942 in this mod). I am not certain why these float planes were not able to detect my approaching task force.

Interestingly, it looks like the Japanese carriers are heading away from Hawaii, moving 8 hexes towards Johnston Island on the 2nd. Are they (and can they?) heading to Johnston for new planes or will they be heading towards India for the expected invasion? Finally, an engineer units is spotted by sigint to be preparing for Pearl Harbour.

China.
All of the Chinese units which had been retreating from Pucheng manage to make it safety, most of these units will move towards Changhsa. The Japanese are still launching large scale attacks on Chinese units but I don`t think they will be able to achieve much.

India.
The Japanese launch another sweep against Calcutta and the Oscars perform very well, 15 Hurricanes, 4 Fulmars and 3 Buffaloes are shot down for 12 Oscars. It is somewhat depressing to see some of the best allied planes still losing despite being over their own base, being fairly well trained, and despite the Oscars flying at extended range. The P-40s of the AVG are brought in to support the Hurricanes in the fight. If the Oscars can beat these units, then I shall be forced to retreat from Calcutta, the Hurricane pool is close to running out.

DEI.
The Japanese are landing at Bandjermarsin, Dutch bombers are ordered to attack With only 20 AV against the defending 40 Dutch AV, a deliberate attack fails on the 1st
On Sumatra, Dutch B-25s launch a ground attack against the advancing Japanese troops. I also have a P-40 squadron in theatre. The Japanese retaliate launching a bombing attack on Medan and nearly close the airfield. The Royal Navy is waiting just west of Sabang to attack any invasion forces.

North Pacific.
This theatre has been very quiet for the past 6 weeks but I am still bringing in the occasional new unit, mostly construction units. However, a Japanese unit was spotted to be preparing for Adak Island last turn. Being divided into fragments, it looks like it is already on a ship. I send a task force of 2 cruisers to try to attack it but it will likely arrive too late to get involved.

Scores
The end of the month and so let us take a look at the score board so far. Note the large number of points for Allied casualties, a lot of which are Chinese troops and the huge number of Japanese plane losses, more than half of those which start the game.




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(in reply to topeverest)
Post #: 66
RE: 31st March to 2nd April 1942 - 8/25/2010 5:44:51 PM   
topeverest

 

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Roosevelt would be pleased. Perhaps he is leaving, but I wouldnt bet on it. He just made a maximum effort assault, and you went after his supply line again. He probably is hoping to catch your retreating forces.

I see no need to use aircraft to knock down Empire base in Hawaii. Because it is operational after all you have done, it is clear that he must have brought huge numbers of engineers. You will not succeed by throwing away your aircraft. My primary thoughts are as follows: get AA whereever he can attack by air, and up the ante with rapid succession BB and then CA bombardments from Pearl - bring DMS escorts if you think huge numbers of mines are present, which is not likely. Use your fighters in Defense of PH. It is worth a thought to offload three - five CV carrier loads and send them in one massive raid from PH without the risk to the ships. Pulse every fighter in at that moment when it looks good, and pulse bombardments too. PH is a lvl 10 base, you can launch up to 800? planes in a day. Why not do it?

I wont start a fire by restating my reccommendation on toe-to toe CV combat.

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Andy M

(in reply to yubari)
Post #: 67
RE: 31st March to 2nd April 1942 - 8/25/2010 7:19:11 PM   
paullus99


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You know, that's not a bad idea - PH is an unsinkable aircraft carrier. It could make any further reinforcement or stay by the KB very, very expensive.

Now you just need to be able to bring in additional troops and supplies (plus don't lose out on any other opportunities to make pinprick raids on the other side of the map as well)./

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(in reply to topeverest)
Post #: 68
3rd April 1942 - 8/28/2010 3:22:31 PM   
yubari

 

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Exactly right, topeverest, I shall try to use the US navy in the Hawaii battle from now on with the majority of the Japanese navy out of the way.
I had someone try to use US navy planes from a land base against and they suffered from terrible co-ordination, like 50 SBDs attacking unescorted. It is something to think about anyway, certainly if I can do sufficient damage to Kona.

Hawaii.
The B-17s attack at night again and manage to shoot down 4 intercepting Zeroes for no loss. Bombing destroys a further 12 or so fighters on the ground. In the morning, a squadron of Oscars sweeps Pearl Harbour and comes off very much second best. 11 are reported to be shot down and a further 7 show up as ops losses compared to 9 allied fighters. That makes a total of more than 30 Japanese fighters destroyed today alone.

There is no sign of the KB at all, I guess that it is moving towards Johnston Island. The US cruiser group that attacked at Johnston Island manages to reach safety at Pearl Harbour. FatR hasn't tried an attack against the port at Pearl Harbour yet, possibly fearing the flak there. It appears that it will be safe to use it as a base to launch naval bombardments against Kona. The Japanese look to have 2 cruiser task forces based at Kona permanently.
In two turns time, 2 New Zealand cruisers will try to attack at Midway.

China.
Aside from hundreds of Japanese bombers attacking daily, this theatre has become quiet in the last week.

India.
Troops from Burma corps are beginning to arrive in India. The batallions will be sent to rear bases to guard against paratroop attacks and the larger units will train and prepare for their future targets.

DEI.
Japanese units are spotted heading along the Singapore strait. The Royal Navy is so far unspotted and is set to move just north of Sabang next turn to try to attack.
The Japanese 40th Brigade crosses the river at Balikpapan launching a shock attack that fails to take down the forts. No further attacks at Malang, level 3 forts will be built in 3 turns if there are no airfield attacks in the meantime.

Mistake.
60 turns ago, I set a P-40 unit on the Philippines to withdraw. Today it came back at San Francisco and replenished with 25 new P-40Es. Since it is a fixed command 撤・unit due to withdraw at the start of June, I cannot move the unit or withdraw the planes and hence I have just lost nearly a months production of P-40s. Note to self, never withdraw planes with reinforcements allowed.

(in reply to topeverest)
Post #: 69
4th April 1942 - 8/28/2010 8:05:45 PM   
yubari

 

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Hawaii.
A really tremendous turn for the allies as SS Tuna manages to torpedo the Akagi! A second hit is also scored but this is unfortunately a dud. The replay shows belt armour penetration and an explosion but there is no damaged shown in the combat log, my guess is about 20 points of system damage and a few flooding points of damage have been done. The Tuna locates presumably the whole of the rest of the KB along with the Akagi, three hexes eastwards of Johnston Island.

The B-17s attack at night and destroy another 10 or so Zeroes on the ground but Kona airfield still manages to get to level 4. FatR seems unhappy with this amount of destruction, and it is impossible to stop, so I will limit the night bombing attacks to every three days from now on.

At Midway, the two New Zealand cruisers will attack tonight, recon has not spotted any ships there but I might be lucky. The USN battleline will be putting to sea tomorrow, I have four US battleships plus the Warspite. I will be looking to bombard Kona and possibly fight a carrier battle near Pearl Harbour in around two weeks time.

DEI.
The Royal Navy sails to one hex east of Sabang and is still unspotted, this is either an extremely cunning way to get me to sacrifice the Royal Navy or very poor recon on FatR`s part.
There is a large Japanese transport fleet at the southernmost Dutch railway base on the Straits of Malacca (I forget it`s name), apparently being guarded by a surface fleet including one battleship, possibly the Yamato. The Prince of Wales and the Repulse will attack tomorrow and the three British carriers will be 5 hexes away in the daytime.
I hope that this move catches FatR completely by surprise, if there are lots of Betties in the region then tomorrow could be a complete disaster. I have no sightings of the mini KB, my best guess is that it is around Badelbaob.

China.
It looks like Japan is now moving to clear out the Wuchow area. With 1500AV in Rough wooded terrain, I hope that they can hold out, at least against the small Japanese army that has been operating in the south.

India.
More British brigades are arriving in theatre at Karachi and fortifications are being built up along the coast, I think that India and Ceylon are safe by now.

Australia.
Australian troops are now approaching Cooktown and are a couple of weeks away from Coen. I want to build up these bases so I can start putting pressure on Horn Island and Port Moresby.




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(in reply to yubari)
Post #: 70
RE: 4th April 1942 - 8/28/2010 8:16:49 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: yubari

Hawaii.

The B-17s attack at night and destroy another 10 or so Zeroes on the ground but Kona airfield still manages to get to level 4. FatR seems unhappy with this amount of destruction, and it is impossible to stop, so I will limit the night bombing attacks to every three days from now on.



Why


  • He can switch some fighters to night CAP
  • It isn't your fault he mismanaged his invasion with the result your main airbase at Pearl was left largely untouched and thereby able to launch B-17s
  • He should know how difficult it is to stop any B-17 raid directly - they are best stopped indirectly with flak, damaging airbase, interdicting supply lines, operational losses (and service rating impact)


Alfred

< Message edited by Alfred -- 8/28/2010 8:18:17 PM >

(in reply to yubari)
Post #: 71
RE: 4th April 1942 - 8/28/2010 8:18:08 PM   
vettim89


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From: Toledo, Ohio
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quote:

ORIGINAL: yubari

Hawaii.
A really tremendous turn for the allies as SS Tuna manages to torpedo the Akagi! A second hit is also scored but this is unfortunately a dud. The replay shows belt armour penetration and an explosion but there is no damaged shown in the combat log, my guess is about 20 points of system damage and a few flooding points of damage have been done. The Tuna locates presumably the whole of the rest of the KB along with the Akagi, three hexes eastwards of Johnston Island.

The B-17s attack at night and destroy another 10 or so Zeroes on the ground but Kona airfield still manages to get to level 4. FatR seems unhappy with this amount of destruction, and it is impossible to stop, so I will limit the night bombing attacks to every three days from now on.

At Midway, the two New Zealand cruisers will attack tonight, recon has not spotted any ships there but I might be lucky. The USN battleline will be putting to sea tomorrow, I have four US battleships plus the Warspite. I will be looking to bombard Kona and possibly fight a carrier battle near Pearl Harbour in around two weeks time.

DEI.
The Royal Navy sails to one hex east of Sabang and is still unspotted, this is either an extremely cunning way to get me to sacrifice the Royal Navy or very poor recon on FatR`s part.
There is a large Japanese transport fleet at the southernmost Dutch railway base on the Straits of Malacca (I forget it`s name), apparently being guarded by a surface fleet including one battleship, possibly the Yamato. The Prince of Wales and the Repulse will attack tomorrow and the three British carriers will be 5 hexes away in the daytime.
I hope that this move catches FatR completely by surprise, if there are lots of Betties in the region then tomorrow could be a complete disaster. I have no sightings of the mini KB, my best guess is that it is around Badelbaob.

China.
It looks like Japan is now moving to clear out the Wuchow area. With 1500AV in Rough wooded terrain, I hope that they can hold out, at least against the small Japanese army that has been operating in the south.

India.
More British brigades are arriving in theatre at Karachi and fortifications are being built up along the coast, I think that India and Ceylon are safe by now.

Australia.
Australian troops are now approaching Cooktown and are a couple of weeks away from Coen. I want to build up these bases so I can start putting pressure on Horn Island and Port Moresby.






WHOA, WHOA, WHOA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Let me get this right. Your opponent makes the ridiculously aggressive move of trying to invade the HI and is now complaining that he is suffering from the massive air power based there?????

Personally I would tell him to stick it!. You are already playing a Enhanced Japan mod. He made his bed, make him lay in it. Seriously: if you cave here on this point, you are not only doing a disservice to yourself but to all Allied players. This game allows the Japan player to do incredible things that are beyond the scope of what Japan was truly capable of doing. I applaud Fat R for his aggressive play style but he needs to be shown that aggressive play has consequences. Don't just sit back and absorb this as if it is some how preordained that the Allied player has to take what is handed to him with a smile at this point in the war

< Message edited by vettim89 -- 8/28/2010 8:23:54 PM >


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(in reply to yubari)
Post #: 72
RE: 4th April 1942 - 8/28/2010 8:19:45 PM   
Alfred

 

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+1 what vettim89 just said.

Alfred

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Post #: 73
RE: 4th April 1942 - 8/28/2010 8:33:12 PM   
Smeulders

 

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Although Vettim has a good argument, I can see the other side of the issue as well. It's not like FatR is asking to act like PH is a lvl 4 field. Night bombing does seem a little strong, so a consistent night bombing campaign might be a bit gamey.

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 74
RE: 4th April 1942 - 8/29/2010 1:47:42 AM   
krupp_88mm


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B-17's durability rating is to high, not by much just a little bit it should have 2-3 points shaved off, and yes night bombings are toooo accurate, the brits night bombing most bombs were 10 miles off target, it was so bad the only target they could attack was a large city.. an airfield? almost impossible, it mainly would just keep the pilots awake and add a little stress to them

(in reply to Smeulders)
Post #: 75
RE: 4th April 1942 - 8/29/2010 6:44:26 PM   
topeverest

 

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I tend to agree that such complaints by the other side, if not pure psch warfare, are both a sign of impending empire doom or abandonment as well as a statement on his thoughts as to winnability. I also agree asking for such forbearance is inappropriate. What you are doing is working. keep it up. By backing off, you are giving the enemy a free chance to turn the tide and potentially deal a lethal blow to you.

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Andy M

(in reply to krupp_88mm)
Post #: 76
5th April 1942 - 8/29/2010 9:50:16 PM   
yubari

 

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Thankyou for the comments everyone. I have to agree with you topeverest, the sudden slowing down of turns and these complaints do suggest to me that this game might not continue too much longer. Hopefully that will not be the case. I have only seen the replay for the 5th April turn but here are the email comments.

Here are the words from FatR from the previous turn, I don't think it is fair to call it a complaint
"Also, I don't know what to do with your night bombing. Night interception seems to be worse than ineffective against 4Es at the point. If losses don't drop now, when I have no overstack, this is just a Win button for Allies."

Here is what came back with this replay.
"Thanks for your courtesy with night bombing. I'll withhold from sweeping undefended outlying bases to bag CAP leakers in return."

Here is what I sent back, I have yet to receive the turn file.

"I mentioned your comment on my AAR and I had a couple of replies, here is one from Vettim89 (I sent a screen of post 72 from Vettim). I am afraid that I cannot simply stop bombing at night just because you don't like it. That said I do agree that it is somewhat overpowered in the number of planes destroyed and so we could try to discuss house rules. We are already playing a mod which gives massive advantages to the Japanese.
Please feel free to continue sweeping trying to catch leaking CAP if you want to. If you continue to do it then I shall do it as well and it will make it very easy for my Thunderbolts to destroy your airforce later on. I view this to be a super gamey tactic and hope that this doesn't happen."

I have to admit that the comment that came with the last replay made me a bit angry.

Personally I think that the night bombing is too effective, or at least has been so far in this mini-campaign. As other posters have said, night bombers had trouble hitting the right city at this point in the war. When the Zeroes have tried to intercept at night, they have barely managed to get a shot in and have lost about 8 planes to the B-17s.

Personally I find this game far more interesting in trying to outwit your opponent than the actual winning of the game and the crushing of the opponents forces, I do not really want to use a tactic that seems overpowered or unfair. This has probably also shown itself in my somewhat moderated defence of Hawaii so far; rather than bring the sledgehammer in, I have tried to keep the Japanese in (or out) of position as long as possible.

Equally as Vettim has said, this game, and particularly this mod gives Japan greater strength than historically and FatR has admitted that the base was overstacked. I shall try another night attack tomorrow against the base when it is not overstacked and see what happens.

Instead of attacking at Kona, my bombers hit the troops at Hilo today. I have noticed that FatR very often waits 5 turns between launching ground attacks at the same target and so I wanted to try to hit the ground troops on the same day of his attack.


DEI.
The main action for the day happened along Sumatra. In an exceptionally violent surface combat at Loemadjang, the Prince of Wales and Repulse encountered a large Japanese task force unloading at Loemadjang and massacred it. 8 xAKs are sunk along with a PB and a DD, and a TB is left with heavy fires and heavy damage, another almost certain sinking. The one xAK that survives is then torpedoed three times by a Dutch submarine and sinks.
In the daytime, Albacores from the Royal Navy carriers find themselves just two hexes away from a Japanese cruiser task force and attack, 2 torpedoes are scored against CL Kuma and 3 against CL Yura, both of them should sink.
This marks a stunning victory for the Royal Navy. In anticipation of huge numbers of Bettys attacking tomorrow, I shall retreat at full speed. This was really poor recon by FatR; my ships weren't spotted at all until today, and even then, only one Nell saw them.

Hawaii.
The CLs Achilles and Leander with one destroyer escorting reach Midway and encounter a small task force. The two PBs and two xAKLs are very quickly sunk and the cruisers escape cleanly.
On Hawaii, my bombers attack the Japanese ground troops at Hilo, expecting the Japanese to try a deliberate attack. In the event there is no Japanese attack and US engineers manage to rebuild the fortifications to level 2, I think that Hilo should be safe from here on, unless FatR reunites the KB and brings in another couple of divisions.
Over Lihue, an Oscar squadron sweeps and manages to destroy a P-40B which leaks from Pearl Harbour. Finally, an Infantry Regiment is spotted planning for Pearl Harbour. This would surely be suicide, level 5 forts were reached last turn.

< Message edited by yubari -- 8/29/2010 9:56:41 PM >

(in reply to topeverest)
Post #: 77
RE: 5th April 1942 - 8/29/2010 11:46:21 PM   
vettim89


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In a little more rational vein: while it may be true that night bombing is too effective, it is just one of many distortions the game has in it. If it is the position of your opponent that parts of the game that are distorted should be avoided then there should be no SCTF bombarding airfields, no shock attacks, no PDU, subs should be required to sit in port for a month after returning from patrol, the entire SWEEP mission should be illegal, etc. Point being that while AE is a great game, there are flaws. We play the game that was given us flaws and all.

As to the not being able to hit targets at night using Bomber Command as the yarstick: I bet they would have done a lot better if they were attacking the air base at Dover after a successful Sea Lion operation by the Germans. Hilo is what 250 NM from Oahu? The USAAC would A. be very familiar with the geography of the area, B. have excellant maps which was often a limiter in WWII, and C. be highly motivated.

_____________________________

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(in reply to yubari)
Post #: 78
RE: 5th April 1942 - 8/30/2010 1:55:39 AM   
Alfred

 

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Again +1 what vettim89 just said.

This game was started with the intention of minimal HRs. In that context, new HRs should only be introduced to cover those situations where there is no riposte available. The situation with (a) the difficulty of countering B-17s, and (b) night bombing operations being perhaps too powerful/difficult to intercept without dedicated night fighters, is well known. In both cases there are counter measures available, hence no new HR is warranted in a game which commenced with the express intention of having minimal HRs.

Whilst I don't think it is your opponent's intention, nonetheless the impression is of resorting to handicapping you to cover for his mistakes. There are countermeasures available to your opponent. Nothing stops him from launching night raids against Pearl if he feels it is too well guarded during daylight hours, to name just one counter measure.

Taken to its logical extent, will your opponent also object to the historical use of Wellingtons on night bombing missions? They have a decent payload and are so used by Andy Mac in his AAR. Will he not engage in using Japanese bombers on night bombing as they were used historically?

Also why did he conduct sweeps on undefended outlaying bases to catch leaking CAP and only after he sought to stop the night B-17s did he offer to desist? IMHO that would not be a fair swap anyway, heavily favouring the Japanese side (exchanging the odd downed Allied fighter in return for neutering the far greater damage inflicted by B-17s and allowing more focused use of Japanese fighters). He should be allowed to conduct such sweeps if he feels they are worthwhile, and you should be allowed to conduct night bombing.

Alfred

(in reply to vettim89)
Post #: 79
RE: 5th April 1942 - 8/30/2010 2:38:35 AM   
vicberg

 

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Yes there are flaws in the game, but all not all flaws are created equal. Both sides can shock. Both sides can SCTF bombard. PDU is definately a Japanese advantage but can be shut off. However, B-17s can't be stopped by anyone or anything. The "counter-meausres" that you talk about is true, striking at the B-17 airbases, but that's barely a work around and in some cases, it's suicidal to the japanese, especially with the altitude rules slaughtering escorts. More importantly, its not something the allies are forced to do against the japanese. So this "flaw" completely alters japansese strategy without forcing the allies to do anything different. This "flaw" is a bug and should not be exploited.

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 80
RE: Gameys and HR - 8/30/2010 3:45:51 AM   
BBfanboy


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True enough that the game makes 4E bombers too tough to shoot down an historical rates and too good at night bombing [at least for 1941-43 levels of training and technology]. Regardless of good maps and familiarity, you still have to be able to see some landmarks to find your target area and are unlikely to see an aircraft sitting off the runway in the weeds.
However, there are other gamey things that favor the IJN - much more effective flak throughout the game that takes a heavy toll on low flying carrier DBs and TBs for example. There is no house rule you can use to compensate for this programming - you just have to live with it. Similarly, to make the game more balanced for the IJN player the programmers have given them better ASW than historical and frequent dominance in surface actions against ships that ought to outclass them.
No one can reasonably tone down these factors unless they just avoid contact with the enemy - not much fun in that! It seems the best solution is for both players to accept the game "as is" and make the best of their advantages while trying to counter the other side's superpowers.

_____________________________

I have not yet begun to fight! OTOH I have not yet begun to flee. Hmmmmm - choices, choices -always with the choices.

(in reply to vicberg)
Post #: 81
RE: Gameys and HR - 8/30/2010 4:08:17 AM   
vicberg

 

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We need to differentiate between game balancing mechanisms and bugs. Every game tries to create some type of balance, whether historically accurate or not. The japanese are much more uber than historical because without the balancing, no one would play the game (expect maybe a few hard core gamers). Matrix is a business. They need to sell games. A completely one sided game won't sell. Auto-victory, pdu, mods, scenario #2 are game balancing. ASW is game balancing because without it, there'd be no jap merchant shipping after 43. Is flak a bug or game balancing? Hard to tell. I won't argue either side, though I'd guess it's probably game balancing. In spite of these items, the japanese still have little chance to win. Everyone knows that. So the game is STILL one-sided, though not to the extent that history dictates.

The fundamental problem with 4E bug is that it removes one of the two japanese early war advantages, naval power and air power. 4E negates japanese air power. In 42, that's more than something to simply accept as part of the game and made worse if it's exploited via night attacks. Trust me, I accept the game as is. But if I spent time planning a detailed ops like invading PH in early 42 and carried it off only to find out I'm screwed because of a bug that doesn't allow me to do anything about it other than suicide attacks, I'd be pissed.




(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 82
RE: Gameys and HR - 8/30/2010 6:49:19 AM   
vettim89


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From: Toledo, Ohio
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While I accept some of what you are saying here vicberg, I would like to counter with one very important point. The reason Yuabri's night raids were successful is that the target air base is 250 nm from the largest American air base in the Pacific. That close, ops losses and fatigue have got to be very low. Ergo, he can just keep pounding Hilo to dust for very little cost. Again, the Hawaiian invasion was very bold but also very risky. This is why it is risky.

Of note, even with the nighly raids Fat R has built Hilo from level 2 to 4 in what a week? To me for the Japanese to be able to do that is the ultimately expression of the overstated base building routine allows. Yes, there are compromises to be made in the name of good sportsmanship, but to pick one game flaw/inaccuracy and disallow it when, at this point, its the only thing Yubari has going for him seems to be asking a lot.

Ultimately, its Yubari's decision to make.

_____________________________

"We have met the enemy and they are ours" - Commodore O.H. Perry

(in reply to vicberg)
Post #: 83
5th April 1942 - 8/31/2010 7:25:18 AM   
yubari

 

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An interesting discussion Gentlemen.

We are back on with the game. FatR will not using the leaking CAP sweeps over Lihue and I shall continue with the night bombing. If it appears to be too powerful, then I shall moderate it. This could possibly be just using 2 engine bombers on night attacks, or I could use only a limited number of B-17E squadrons on night attack. As I said earlier, I do not really want to use an overpowered tactic to achieve victory. For the next turn, the 2 engine bombers will be attacking alone, and then the B-17s shall attack the turn afterwards.

On the West Coast, the Yorktown class are just two days away from being active, and the Saratoga needs another 5 days of repair. The US battleline left San Francisco this turn, I will try to use it in the waters around Kona if the KB is not spotted. A collection of allied cruisers are beginning to congregate at Pearl Harbour, including the two task forces that raided Johnston and Midway in the last week. There is no sighting of the KB, it could be heading back to Kwajalein for refueling and more planes. There is a radio intercept of a fleet around 15 hexes north west of Palmyra, but no information beyond that.

The picture shows the position of the Royal navy in the Dutch East Indies. The three carriers can be seen two hexes to the northwest of the "Straits of Malacca" hex and the Prince of Wales and Repulse are at Sabang, somehow they have managed to move nine hexes since the battle last turn. You can see the position of the Japanese ships, sadly there was no battleship in the fleet as my recon suggested.

All of my ships are now set to retreat at full speed, they should all be safely out of Zero range tomorrow. I expect the mini KB to try to attack at Columbo now, so I might move the Royal Navy back to Bombay for the next month or two, they will not be strong enough to attempt to interdict any Indian invasion. Interestingly, my recon shows nearly 300 ships in Singapore harbour, a mighty invasion fleet?




Attachment (1)

(in reply to vettim89)
Post #: 84
RE: 5th April 1942 - 8/31/2010 9:00:43 PM   
topeverest

 

Posts: 2324
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From: Houston, TX - USA
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That intel on KB is all I would need in Hawaii to strike. Now is the time to bombard with those cruisers! This is your chance. Get a TF with 25 ships from PH, as heavy as you can make them. BB if available. Expect heavy covering naval forces. Pick best commander and bombard. Set retirement auto disband and dont refuel. escorts to bombard range 1. That is a maximum chance at maximum naval inflicted damage. If you have enough ships, I would do both enemy bases on the same turn.

keep an eye on zingers Probably for DEI, but if it is to India / Celyon...well I would be preparing now. Look for intel. I would pool invasion reaction navy, land units, and air forces in a place your opponent is not likely to find but able to react to invasions of Celyon or eastern india.

I do not recall where you have your BB's and major surface fleets beyond POW and R - a disucssion and planned tactics would be nice. In any event, I would be throwing them in at this point. You have the bulk of his CV forces spotted. great time to strike. Anywhere you can get 1 to 1 in anything but CV's is an excellent oppornunity to shorten the life of the Empire. regarding running away from miniKB if in indian waters? You should set ambush and throw everything at them if they get beyond the protection of LBA. That force is not unbeatable.

_____________________________

Andy M

(in reply to yubari)
Post #: 85
6th and 7th April 1942 - 9/1/2010 4:12:40 PM   
yubari

 

Posts: 364
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Yes topeverest, barring a sudden reappearance of the KB I will try a large attack hopefully on the 12th or 13th of April. My battleships are organised into two fleets. The British Prince of Wales, Repulse, Resolution, Royal Sovereign and Ramillies are with the British carriers and are currently 18 hexes from Columbo and running short on fuel and torpedoes. Resolution took moderate damage from a torpedo.

The Colorado, Idaho, New Mexico, Mississippi and Warspite are 45 hexes from Pearl Harbour, or about 6 days travel at cruise speed. This task force is I think unspotted. It is easy to get cruiser groups into Pearl Harbour unspotted due to their speed but Mavises would surely spot any battleships approaching. The Japanese have at Kona around 25 warships, of which recon suggests around 6 are cruisers. The Zero CAP is pretty much impenetrable.

The mini KB contains the Ryujo, Shoho, Zuiho, Taiyo and Hosho for a total of around 160 planes. I am assuming that the Junyo (58 planes) and the Nisshin (30 planes) will also be available to make a total of around 250 planes. I don't think that the British carriers with just 100 planes can challenge that, but I shall certainly try to hit the supply train if the mini KB loiters too long around the landing point.

Hawaii.
I tried to attack with only 2 engine bombers on the 6th and they made just one bomb hit. An attack involving just three B-17 squadrons plus the 2 engines on the 7th scored around 20 bomb hits and destroyed 3 Zeroes on the ground, entirely reasonable results I feel, so I shall continue with this in the future. Kona airfield is now at level 5.

The US battleships have left San Francisco and should be at Pearl Harbour in around 6 days time. Importantly, I do not think that they have been spotted. The Yorktown class has finished its upgrades along with the Lexington. The Saratoga is just three days away from being ready, I shall send the carriers out in two days time and let the Saratoga move one day at full speed, time is of the essence here.

Sigint spots an engineer unit that had previously been planning for Lihue heading towards Kwajalein, there could be an attempted landing there in a week or two. There are also reports of heavy radio traffic at Kwajalein, which could possibly be the KB although it would have had to have moved very fast to get there: it has not been seen since the 4th April when the Akagi was torpedoed. There look to be about four to six Japanese cruisers at Kona, I want to use the USN to take these out so that I can use naval bombardments to destroy Kona airfield.

DEI.
There are lots of destroyers operating in the Straits of Malacca, no doubt trying to attack the large numbers of submarines I have there. The number of ships at Singapore is now over 300, and recon shows at least 10 of them to be AKs. A task force of three battleships is also spotted.

At sea, a US submarine puts another torpedo into the Yura and it is now confirmed sunk. A Japanese submarine also torpedoes the BB Resolution, only a few system damage points and 12 major floatation are caused, but it will be enough to keep it out of the war for about 6 weeks.

The three Dutch redoubts all survive. Malang is now back to forts level 3, and there have been no attacks at Balikpapan or Bandjermasin.

India.
Preparations are being made for the Indian invasion. Looking at the map, it is too late to invade on the west coast, there are only 23 days left of the invasion bonus. The most logical place to land would seem to be Vizgapatnam, it is relatively isolated from other air bases in India. However two divisions have been previously spotted planning for Diamond Harbour. At the moment, there are roughly 2600AV on Ceylon and another 3000 or so in India, around two thirds of this force is Indian Infantry, and still less than the magical 50 experience. I have to assume that FatR is bringing at least 4000AV.

China.
Japan retreats another Chinese corps in the north of the country. I had set it to move as a diversion and then forgot about it, another 10000 troops are lost. In the south, the Japanese retake Pucheng.

Japanese carriers.
I carried out a detailed hex count to try to guess the position of the Japanese carriers. My best guess is that the mini KB is around Jolo, I have set 5 submarines in the area to scout for it. I think that the KB is around 12 hexes from Kwajalein so it could probably get back to Kona for around the 16th April.

(in reply to topeverest)
Post #: 86
RE: 6th and 7th April 1942 - 9/1/2010 7:13:43 PM   
topeverest

 

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From: Houston, TX - USA
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Yubari,

You definately seem to have the upper hand in Hawaii. Even if your bombardment & ship to ship loses 2 to 1 against, which you wont, you still can replace the losses. japan cannot. The most important thing IMHO is to sink as many combat vessals and kill as many pilots from KB in 42 before the enemy hunkers down into defensive mode. Anything else is a bonus. Use low moonlight turns after you have surface radar to limit Jap advantage. Mix untested and tested ships in each TF to better harmonize performance.

When the India invasion happens, if it happens, there will be no point holding back any british or DEI navy. I think that invasion also should play well into your hands. Let me suggest you think about how you plan to deploy your naval and air forces. Narrowing down the invasion location would be a great help.

_____________________________

Andy M

(in reply to yubari)
Post #: 87
RE: 6th and 7th April 1942 - 9/1/2010 7:30:24 PM   
janh

 

Posts: 1226
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I don't know why FatR stopped posting completely his part of the AAR, but it makes me think you are up for a really nasty big surprise.  But this will make this AAR more interesting than ever!! 

Nothing would be more boring than the Allied side gaining the upper hand so early in the war -- then the rest would reduce to the equations of attrition.   The Allied side must basically always win, but I like it best if it is really close to the last moment.  That's why I am often bored by players hording their CV's for the perfect moment to strike with all "599 million of them in a perfectly planned 7 hex attack tactic".  I find, compared to most AAR's, that historically the USN and IJN did split their CV div's more often and use them in small TFs and riskier operations.  Think of all the naval engagements preceding "Operation Watchtower" and the naval actions around the Coral Sea and Guadalcanal.  Plenty of separate CV engagements, which USN feeding ships into the fray pretty much as they arrive.  Yet I cannot recall an AAR where players have been playing in a similar fashion.  Rather most would wait until mid-43, until a substantial CV could be gathered, before attacking the Solomons.  Why is that?  What aspect, or approximation is leading to this "gamey" behavior?  Or is it just a wrong impression?

(in reply to topeverest)
Post #: 88
RE: 6th and 7th April 1942 - 9/1/2010 8:53:50 PM   
Walloc

 

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From: Denmark
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Havent read the AAR for the last few days, then i stumbled on the night bombing discussion. My opinion greatly differs with the prevailing opinions given so i thot i'd give it.

My 2 cents on the night AF/port bombardment. Its very gamey and show me one historic example of succesfull night bombings of such type targets. To the extend its possible to do regulary in game. U historicly didnt see prolonged night bombing campaigns vs AF causing the kinda aircraft caulties u see in game, simply cuz it didnt work. Nor did u even see single attacks on that type of targets. IMO its an error that it works in the game and ofc then an exploit. My experience is that while overstacking matters u can still achieve amazing results without overstacking. The modifier for doing night bombing vs ports/AF is way off. Personally i dont understand, why the dev teams, if it was remotely possible, didnt make the modifiers doing high altitude and night bombings to a point where ppl simply wouldnt use them as they modifier should make them useless vs tactical targets.
If some thing pays to do, players will do it. Thats how players are by nature. Sure culture then might create a situasion where there is a general consensus on what is gamey, but thats a process.
I dont really buy the argument dont play players that do it, but then opinions will differ on that and i recogniese that.
In the end its the devs that made the game and it is their vision. Gota respect that, but that doesnt mean other ppl cant have another opinion on how they view the design.

All those arguments of well this and this is gamey too, doesnt cut it with me. It might be true, but one wrong doesnt make another wrong right. Especially since the other wrongs mentioned at leased has some historic basis for them, tho maybe overstated.

That said i will always suggest a HR against such to my opponents but if they refuse than i have no problem with using it if they used it to me first. Yes im aware how that sounds compared to above. That said i dont know how ur HR/ game has been so far as far as night bombings go.
My opinion would be if opponents has used it he has opened pandoras box, but i would never use it first. No matter the situasion.

On another matter i dont hope he quits, any time soon. If its true, and lets see if it is. It would be pathetic. I mean he made this riscky move. He knew that and u gota live with the consequences of ur actions or dont make them. The go for all or bust and if bust i just quite kinda mentality. Well as said is IMO pathetic. I have no problem with ppl wanting to win and going for it. Just live with it, if it doesnt play out as u want and not only go on in the games where it by luck or what ever works out.


Kind regards,

Rasmus

< Message edited by Walloc -- 9/1/2010 9:33:34 PM >

(in reply to janh)
Post #: 89
RE: Gameys and HR - 9/1/2010 9:21:05 PM   
Walloc

 

Posts: 3051
Joined: 10/30/2006
From: Denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vettim89

While I accept some of what you are saying here vicberg, I would like to counter with one very important point. The reason Yuabri's night raids were successful is that the target air base is 250 nm from the largest American air base in the Pacific. That close, ops losses and fatigue have got to be very low. Ergo, he can just keep pounding Hilo to dust for very little cost. Again, the Hawaiian invasion was very bold but also very risky. This is why it is risky.

Of note, even with the nighly raids Fat R has built Hilo from level 2 to 4 in what a week? To me for the Japanese to be able to do that is the ultimately expression of the overstated base building routine allows. Yes, there are compromises to be made in the name of good sportsmanship, but to pick one game flaw/inaccuracy and disallow it when, at this point, its the only thing Yubari has going for him seems to be asking a lot.

Ultimately, its Yubari's decision to make.


Vettim, while valueing ur opinion i dont IMO not a single of those arguements holds any water, but rationalizations of why it should work.
Historicly u had hundres of example of where the above was correct and that didnt lead to any night AF bombing campaigns causing significant aircraft casulties.
Lots of allied and japanease airfields was under daily attacks and still got build up. Henderson field, PM and so on. The attacks didnt stop the AF from building up. Not to mention ETO. The build rates goes both ways and helps the allied when they advance.

The size of AF nor that distance had any thing to do with whether presicion night bombing AF was feasible to do, what so ever.
IN ETO the whole allied strategy of going after LW figthers had 1000s of cases where the above was true. U never saw night bombing AFs killing aircraft as a remote possibilty. Nor was it an option in PTO when it ur above conditions was met.
Its an exploit( yes ofc ppl might differ with me on that) and nothing else to say. That u are hard pressed dont make an exploit less of an exploit.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

< Message edited by Walloc -- 9/1/2010 9:28:30 PM >

(in reply to vettim89)
Post #: 90
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