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too complex? - 6/4/2010 7:25:56 AM   
jnpoint


Posts: 242
Joined: 8/9/2007
From: Holstebro, Denmark
Status: offline 		I have followed this game with interest, but there are some hooks that make that I have not bought it yet. Firstly I do not understand why this type of games always have to downgrade the graphics - it could just be as simple as "Across the Dnepr. And why not sprites?

Well, enough negativity - from the videos I've seen, I feel that the game is pretty complex. Maybe even too complex for me. If you have played and have to be honest - would a guy who loves strategy games as HOI3, EU3 and "Storm over the Pacific" like this game? Realism, beauty and replayability is the keywords for me? would you recommend the game?
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RE: too complex? - 6/4/2010 8:13:44 AM   
Lützow


Posts: 1413
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline 		High level of realism and replayability, and beauty is always in the eye of the beholder.

BftB is hardly comparable with the EU/HOI series. Maybe you should wait for the demo.

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RE: too complex? - 6/4/2010 9:21:40 AM   
jomni


Posts: 2518
Joined: 11/19/2007
Status: offline 		Put yourself in the feet of the Corps / Division commander...
Do you look at a 3D map with sprites like toy soldiers and plastic tanks?
I don't think so. You look at a flat military-style map with Nato symbols representing your Battalions and Companies.

The game is not complex. HOI is more complex with all the economics / politics / military production you have to focus on. Using the chain of command makes playing it simpler than most tactical / operational wargames. With the micromanaging out of the way, you now focus on the prolems real commanders face. BTW, the games that you like are all strategic in scale, this one is operational.

This game is almost a "simulation" more than just a mere strategy game. It definitely a different experience. It's very educational. You appreciate how a military operation is actually performed with all the SOPs, doctrines, etc.

< Message edited by jomni -- 6/4/2010 9:28:03 AM >

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RE: too complex? - 6/4/2010 9:40:25 AM   
Adam Parker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jnpoint

...would a guy who loves strategy games as HOI3, EU3.. like this game? Realism, beauty and replayability is the keywords for me?


If you can play these games, then the learning curve of BFtB will be much lesser imo.

The real issue is can you think like an operational commander becuase that's the scale you're going to be getting? You're not buliding a nation, you're running one of those corps you send out to fight.

In terms of realism then, as an operational commander this is the best I've seen.

Beauty - it's in the eye of the beholder. I play with the 2d NATO icons.

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RE: too complex? - 6/4/2010 10:56:16 AM   
jnpoint


Posts: 242
Joined: 8/9/2007
From: Holstebro, Denmark
Status: offline 		thanks for the answers!
OK - the graphics is as it is. But I still don't understand those NATO icons.
Sometimes the military words confuses me - what lies precisely in that it is "operational"?
I love micromanagement - can I when it is operational at all give individual units orders? Or is the concept in operational games, that micromanagement is out of the question?

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RE: too complex? - 6/4/2010 11:07:27 AM   
Tord Hoppe

 

Posts: 22
Joined: 12/2/2009
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline 		If you want to you can give individual orders to each of your units but that is sort of counter the basic idea behind the game. What it does is give you the tools to give orders to your subordinate commanders who in turn analyze them and give orders to theirs. This is what happens in real life, a commander controls his immidiate subordinates and may give specific orders to some lower units, usually some specialized ones such engineers and such. A battalion commander gives orders to his company commanders, not each and every platoon in the battalion. But as I said, if that is what you want, you´re free to do so though I belive there is some sort of command rating which governs the number of units a commander can control directly?

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RE: too complex? - 6/4/2010 11:23:13 AM   
Chaudart


Posts: 32
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Status: offline 		Look at here for the NATO Icons.
For operational, to simple:
Close Combat : Tactic
HOI : Strategic
Opérational it's between both

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Post #: 7
RE: too complex? - 6/4/2010 11:33:21 AM   
PirateJock


Posts: 448
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From: North West, UK
Status: offline 		Hi jnpoint - reckon you'd be best waiting for the demo; supposed to be in a few weeks. It costs a bit more than other games

IMO the game is nowhere near as complex as the big strategy games - they hurt my head as I can't spend enough time on them to consider everything. In the game the level of unit control is up to you. The fact that the AI is able to take your orders and figure out how to implement them is one of the things I like ... fun to watch it happen and sometimes frustrating - in a good way - when they do something you hadn't expected. I like the unit and map graphics - as simple to understand (learning the NATO symbols is part of the enjoyment for me - though there is the option to use picture symbols for the units.) and in keeping with military commander situation.

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RE: too complex? - 6/4/2010 12:16:16 PM   
henri51


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jnpoint
...
Well, enough negativity - from the videos I've seen, I feel that the game is pretty complex. Maybe even too complex for me. If you have played and have to be honest - would a guy who loves strategy games as HOI3, EU3 and "Storm over the Pacific" like this game? Realism, beauty and replayability is the keywords for me? would you recommend the game?


The game is a lot easier to learn and to play than HOI3.

Henri

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Post #: 9
RE: too complex? - 6/4/2010 12:42:10 PM   
ZBrisk

 

Posts: 23
Joined: 5/16/2010
Status: offline 		Tactics involve squads to battalions over minutes. Operations involve regiments to armies over days or weeks. BftB shows what happens when your divisions go at it in HoI.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tord Hoppe

This is what happens in real life, a commander controls his immidiate subordinates and may give specific orders to some lower units, usually some specialized ones such engineers and such. A battalion commander gives orders to his company commanders, not each and every platoon in the battalion. But as I said, if that is what you want, you´re free to do so though I belive there is some sort of command rating which governs the number of units a commander can control directly?


Historically, commanders would generally (no pun intended lolol) give orders two steps down the chain, so I guess a battalion commander actually would order platoons. This is reflected in the game: command capacity generally allows for direct orders two steps down plus some extra (usually support) units.

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RE: too complex? - 6/4/2010 1:05:50 PM   
jnpoint


Posts: 242
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From: Holstebro, Denmark
Status: offline 		Wonderful - I have the feeling that here is really some people with insight into warfare.
But back to the game: let me see if I understand this correctly:
1. I give the commander orders, and he gives them automatically down the chain! Is the game then over for me?
2. Here is a little more abstract problem: If I give a unit a second order than the one I assigned the commander - which order will the unit then follow?

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Post #: 11
RE: too complex? - 6/4/2010 1:17:11 PM   
Adam Parker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jnpoint

Wonderful - I have the feeling that here is really some people with insight into warfare.
But back to the game: let me see if I understand this correctly:
1. I give the commander orders, and he gives them automatically down the chain! Is the game then over for me?
2. Here is a little more abstract problem: If I give a unit a second order than the one I assigned the commander - which order will the unit then follow?


Hi Jnpoint, at one stage it looks like you were very interested in buying Advanced Tactics. So obviously you have some insight, like the other posters here, as to what goes into operational warfare.

Re your questions:

1. No, there are many posts in this forum that describe the involvement the commander has in developing orders, finessing them and them following their outcome for subsequent management.

2. This is a factor of: the orders delay you set, the state and abilities of your subordinate units and the situations they find themselves in when you issue your follow up commands.

What excited you about the prospect of buying Advanced Tactics? This may help you answer your own questions here.

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Post #: 12
RE: too complex? - 6/4/2010 1:20:13 PM   
boogada

 

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From: Germany
Status: offline 		1.) Well ideally this order will be carried out totally by the AI itself. The game is not over for you, because:

a) usually you have more than one objective to archive
b) you want to adjust your orders based on the performance of your troops and enemy reactions
c) there is always something you can tweak in order to get better results. Like ordering airstrikes, artillery support.
d) also you need to bring your different forces to good use.

2.) If you give a unit that is subordinated to the AI a direct order it will execute your order until you reattach it to its normal commander.

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RE: too complex? - 6/4/2010 1:24:18 PM   
Tord Hoppe

 

Posts: 22
Joined: 12/2/2009
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline 		@ ZBrisk, I suspect we mean the same thing. A battalion commander can and will give orders to certain platoons that are to perform "special" jobs, but he won´t be ordering every rifle platoon around. That would leave him with grumpy company commanders ;)

@jnpoint:
1. No, not any more than it would in real life. There is a constant cycle of order-action-evaluation-order going on. Google OODA for info. Again, the game (sim?) reflect reality. I belive you´ve heard the phrase "every plan works until first contact" or something to that meaning :)
2. If you play a battalion commander and give a platoon an order, that platoon will become detached from its company and you now have control and responsibility of it. This is true until you press the "Reattach" button which returns it to its company commander.

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Post #: 14
RE: too complex? - 6/4/2010 1:31:04 PM   
Arjuna


Posts: 16447
Joined: 3/31/2003
From: Canberra, Australia
Status: online 		BTW in the game there is an option to display picture symbols instead of NATO symbols. Then you would see pictures of tanks, infantry soldiers and guns.

Re 1. No certainly not. Making your assessment, developing a plan and issuing orders is a big part of the commanders task, but probably of equal import is the need to monitor developments, react to them, reassess your plan and issue new orders as the action unfolds. During the planning you should identify triggers ( ie events that will indicate the enemy is doing something that you need to respond to - eg the enemy is moving his tanks to reinforce the town ). Once your subordinates start actioning your orders you need to be monitoring developments closely, examining the state of your units, watching to see if any are breaking etc. You also need to see if any of the triggers you identified in the planning stage have fired and if so you need to issue new orders to your reserve ( you always keep a reserve ) ( eg launch counterattack against enemy tanks or bombard them ). Reaction, reassessment, contingency planning and execution are just as important as the initial plan development. There is more than enough to keep you occupied if you are doing your job right.

Re 2. Currently you can only assign a single order to any subordinate. So if you have ordered your force to Move to X but change your mind and order them to Defend Y, then they will kill off the initial Move order and replace it with Defend order. Having said that the AI is smart enough that if you give a Defend order and the force is not there yet, it will first Move there and when it reaches the objective it will then defend. Further if you check the attack task option when you issue your orders, the force can also launch an attack during its move to the objective if the enemy bar its way. The AI is quite powerful and you can trust it to do a reasonable job. The Tutorial movies explain all of this.

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RE: too complex? - 6/4/2010 1:31:12 PM   
jnpoint


Posts: 242
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From: Holstebro, Denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker


Hi Jnpoint, at one stage it looks like you were very interested in buying Advanced Tactics. So obviously you have some insight, like the other posters here, as to what goes into operational warfare.

Re your questions:

1. No, there are many posts in this forum that describe the involvement the commander has in developing orders, finessing them and them following their outcome for subsequent management.

2. This is a factor of: the orders delay you set, the state and abilities of your subordinate units and the situations they find themselves in when you issue your follow up commands.

What excited you about the prospect of buying Advanced Tactics? This may help you answer your own questions here.


I did buy Advanced Tactics and had a lot af fun for many hours! I did like it because I could build a lot of units and because I like to see a good plan that works Therefore it is also important for me that I can count on the data I use in planning.
But although I have spent many hours in war games, I feel pretty inferior compared to some people on this forum.

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Post #: 16
RE: too complex? - 6/4/2010 1:58:04 PM   
Adam Parker


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From: Melbourne Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jnpoint

But although I have spent many hours in war games, I feel pretty inferior compared to some people on this forum.


You shouldn't feel that way. I envy you for mastering EU! I drove for miles to buy EU1 and I was there on the EU site counting down the clock to the release of patch 1.01 with a big crowd of gamers!

I think that if you can master the UI of BFtB then this will put you in good stead for playing other wargames very well (board and PC) in the future. But you must imo be ready to adopt its design paradigm to get full mileage in enjoyment - ie: that you are your side's overall commander, you make the plans but you need to trust your subordinates to get the job done with a fatherly eye on them.

Oh, I can see Sun Tzu, Hannibal, Clausewitz, Rommel and Sgt Rock under the hood of this one

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Post #: 17
RE: too complex? - 6/4/2010 5:25:51 PM   
wodin


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Status: offline 		HoI is way more complex than this game...I tried HoI the original for a couple of days and I just didn't get it at all. Starters once you bring production\economy into games for me than I'm lost already...second that its realtime at that sort of scale really gets me confused...

This game is easy to play...hard to master...the more you play the more you learn how indepth it is...

The engine is a winner, no doubt about it and with the Est Editor then we are in for years of gaming heaven.

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RE: too complex? - 6/4/2010 6:19:32 PM   
Llyranor


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From: Montreal, Canada
Status: offline 		The game is deep, but I find getting into it pretty intuitive/user-friendly, thanks to the accessible interface and very flexible command structure (which allows you to macro/micro as much as you want depending on your command style).

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Post #: 19
RE: too complex? - 6/4/2010 6:35:30 PM   
henri51


Posts: 916
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Status: offline 		It is important to know that although you can give orders to any sub-units at any time, doing so will detach them, from its HQ and usually force the unit as well as its superior HQs to replan, which could cause delays that could be catastrophic in some cases. So generally one should avoid giving direct orders to a sub-unit that is in the middle of an attack, unless a pause in the attack is not expected to have serious consequences.It is usually better to have a reserve that is not engaged and that can intervene, or to detach a unit from a HQ that is not engaged (i.e. usually defencing). That is how it was in real life and that is why no competent commander would ever go into battle without a reserve.

So it is easy to understand the importance of planning, because changing orders on the fly can have bad consequences. OTOH as Arjuna has pointed out, one should always keep an eye on his forces to see if orders need to be modified. For example, a retreating enemy or a weaker force than anticipated or a stronger defense than anticipated could make an attacker decide to stop the attack and redirect all or part of his attacking force to another task, despite some delay introduced.

Also note that giving orders only to the top HQ and then watching one's plan unfold, even if one is a military genius and his plan has foreseen everything that could happen has the disadvantage that the sub-units have a longer orders delay than if they are getting orders from a closer HQ, and delays are amplified by distance.And a delay at any level of command can cause additional delays all down the line. For example, in the tutorial scenario, when Peiper AG arrived in the morning aroun 0800, since I was in a hurry to go out, I gave orders directly to the top HQ to attack St Vith a few km away. It was 3 PM before the attack got under way. One possible reason in addition to normal delays was air attacks by the enemy. Say the top HQ is hit by an air attack and routed before it has time to finish planning and transmitting its orders; then it could be hours before the whole AG is ready to execute the orders. The same can happen if an intermediae HQ is attacked while it is reorganizing or planning.

So it is probably usually preferable for the player (who is the top HQ) to do as they did in real life and to give orders two levels down. For a division HQ, this would mean giving orders down to the battalion level.Note that to give orders to a HQ (say a company) does not make you manage each component of the company. You would give an order like "attack" to a company HQ along with some parameters such as speed, depth and aggro, and the company commander would then give each platoon their orders, for instance, which units are in front and back etc.

Henri

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RE: too complex? - 6/4/2010 6:42:26 PM   
wodin


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Status: offline 		Yeah I agree...the UI is superb...it got upgraded for CotA and thats why I find myself playing CotA far more than HTTR. It was so much easier to control and view what was going on.

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RE: too complex? - 6/5/2010 1:55:58 AM   
MarkShot


Posts: 6537
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Status: offline 		I think I am going to play some HTTR later on.

Now, there are two really devious things that Dave did with HTTR. First, the mouse wheel zooms backwards (that why there is a reverse option in COTA). Second, he changed the filter or unit hot keys. I find myself tempted to do a little www.autohotkey.com scripting to set mouse scroll right and perhaps map the hot keys consistent with COTA and BFTB. Then, I can finally have the last laugh!

Now that I am remembering HTTR stuff ... I recall that HTTR got louder the faster you ran it. I believe COTA added some form of sound throttling to prevent that from happening.

Still, what a great game!

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RE: too complex? - 6/5/2010 10:01:17 AM   
jomni


Posts: 2518
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Status: offline 		So you're played Advanced Tactics, HOI, EU...  all these games have units production.
When you play BftB you are stuck with what you have and the reinforcements in the scenario.  So be prepared.


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RE: too complex? - 6/5/2010 3:03:01 PM   
wodin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jomni

So you're played Advanced Tactics, HOI, EU...  all these games have units production.
When you play BftB you are stuck with what you have and the reinforcements in the scenario.  So be prepared.



Thankgod....any game with production I'm out....

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RE: too complex? - 6/6/2010 6:26:47 PM   
sharper


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin


quote:

ORIGINAL: jomni

So you're played Advanced Tactics, HOI, EU...  all these games have units production.
When you play BftB you are stuck with what you have and the reinforcements in the scenario.  So be prepared.



Thankgod....any game with production I'm out....


could not agree more.

BftB should come with a gov health warning. cant stop playing the bloody game, badly of cause. Got back & bum ache

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RE: too complex? - 6/6/2010 10:37:27 PM   
IDontThinkSo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin


quote:

ORIGINAL: jomni

So you're played Advanced Tactics, HOI, EU...  all these games have units production.
When you play BftB you are stuck with what you have and the reinforcements in the scenario.  So be prepared.



Thankgod....any game with production I'm out....


This is actually one of the reasons for my switch from conventional strategy games to wargames. Ever since the days of Myth I haven't seen a single combat strategy game that did not involve resource management and unit production in one form or another.

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Post #: 26
RE: too complex? - 6/7/2010 12:50:20 AM   
BASB


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Status: offline 		Dave or anyone at that matter who knows better than I, I haven't played any of the series in the fashion I'm about to describe. If the game parameters were set at no time delay, every unit manual given orders, the game play would very similar to most turned based games, if you paused the game to give orders say every 5 minutes, so what I'm getting at is players that r firmly entrenched into turn based war games, would feel more comfortable using this type of game play. Basically what I am saying is the game has the mechanics to play it as a turn based game if a player wants too.
Ron


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Post #: 27
RE: too complex? - 6/7/2010 12:58:31 AM   
MarkShot


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Status: offline 		Ron,

You could do that if you want too. There is even a RUN UNTIL command which allows to easily run X amount of time and stop automatically.

But have to say that it would be like watching 20 year old VHS tapes on your brand new 50" HD TV. Why would you want to? Wouldn't it just be better to find a quality game is played at the unit level and is TBS?

Note, I do pause whenever I give orders and often do give single unit orders to arty and support units and possibly others in smaller scenarios. Still what you are proposing negates much of what this series offers.

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Post #: 28
RE: too complex? - 6/7/2010 1:37:15 AM   
BASB


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No I not wanting to play that way, just suggesting to those who like turn based games there is an option in the game to suit their play.
Ron


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Post #: 29
RE: too complex? - 6/7/2010 4:38:12 AM   
Joe 98


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Status: offline 		My preference too is to play turn based PBEM games.

I feel that trying to amend the code for this game is way to hard.

But as the developer reads the forums, he might get an idea for a whole new game engine ............


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