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Seriously, Why are Black Holes Still Hard to Build Around?

 
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Seriously, Why are Black Holes Still Hard to Build Around? - 5/28/2010 12:47:18 AM   
jscott991


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The AI can build stations around Black Holes with ease. He does it all the time. But for some reason, the AI refuses to build industry or high tech research stations for the longest time.

Whenever I go to build a station around a black hole, the construction ship is sucked in or the station is too far out to reap the benefits.

Why is this so hard?

Why I can't I click on the black hole, selection build research station, and the constructor know what it is doing and just build it the proper distance away?

Why hasn't this been fixed?
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RE: Seriously, Why are Black Holes Still Hard to Build ... - 5/28/2010 12:57:08 AM   
Simulation01


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Well, I built one around a black hole. I didn't check to see if it was actually getting the bonus ( not sure how to check that ). I will do an amen on the type of station built. The AI doesn't seem to like building High Tech stations. It seems to me anyway.

(in reply to jscott991)
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RE: Seriously, Why are Black Holes Still Hard to Build ... - 5/28/2010 1:22:28 AM   
Dadekster

 

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I don't seem to have any problems. I just click on the sig to see its effect, then make sure I have the constructor selected and right click on the spot and select what I want. My biggest issue is if the constructor comes in across the sig and stops short of the place I right clicked. Sometimes when doing that it comes out of hyperspace within the grav field and then there's a problem.

(in reply to Simulation01)
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RE: Seriously, Why are Black Holes Still Hard to Build ... - 5/28/2010 1:33:39 AM   
jscott991


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dadekster

I don't seem to have any problems. I just click on the sig to see its effect, then make sure I have the constructor selected and right click on the spot and select what I want. My biggest issue is if the constructor comes in across the sig and stops short of the place I right clicked. Sometimes when doing that it comes out of hyperspace within the grav field and then there's a problem.


Then you do have a problem. :) You just know what you are doing.

I've tried micromanaging this and I can get the station built, but usually I'm not getting the bonus.

(in reply to Dadekster)
Post #: 4
RE: Seriously, Why are Black Holes Still Hard to Build ... - 5/28/2010 1:41:58 AM   
Dadekster

 

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It all depends on the vector most of the time. Usually I build it on a path that will allow clear travel between the space station and whatever colony it needs to go to. That typically prevents the whole coming out of hyperspace and parking in a fire zone. Once the empire expands and my borders (such as they are in this game) expands past the blackhole then it gets a little trickier but I haven't noticed any major issues. To get the bonus I just build it slightly outside the vortex effect or whatever you want to call it. Wierd thing is that the AI always wants to plop thier stuff in the area as soon as I do as well. I could wait years and nothing, within a month after I build one I'll see two from two different empires.

(in reply to jscott991)
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RE: Seriously, Why are Black Holes Still Hard to Build ... - 5/28/2010 2:11:25 AM   
Astax

 

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One other thing u must use explorer ship on the blackhole to get the bonus. Until it's explored the bonus is not unlocked.

(in reply to Dadekster)
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RE: Seriously, Why are Black Holes Still Hard to Build ... - 5/28/2010 4:00:47 AM   
Cindar

 

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When you have the constructor and right click, if it says 'build here' I believe that means it is too far away, while if it says 'build at *black hole name*' you will get the bonus. You may need to fiddle a bit to find the exact cut off distance, but should be able to place it far enough away that the constructor won't have problems falling into the black hole.

I _think_ you can hyperspace out of black holes, at least if you haven't fallen into them too far. Dunno how it works, but I've done it when a ship was clearly inside the black hole's perimeter. Probably abusing a bug, but really ships shouldn't be so dumb as to get in there in the first place.

< Message edited by Cindar -- 5/28/2010 4:02:39 AM >

(in reply to Astax)
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RE: Seriously, Why are Black Holes Still Hard to Build ... - 5/28/2010 6:04:12 AM   
Canute

 

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1. Explore the black hole. On an unexplored black system hole you can't target the Black hole self.

2. Target the Black hole now. The Black hole self not the System. The targeting ring is the border where ships/stations are geting tow into the hole.

3. select your Const. ship and let it build the station 1-2 cm outside the ring you saw before.


(in reply to Cindar)
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RE: Seriously, Why are Black Holes Still Hard to Build ... - 5/28/2010 10:20:22 AM   
feygan

 

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Generally both black holes and neutron stars I just build from the galaxy map. Zoom out to a sector view then use the ship menu when you click the black hole and the "build at"

(in reply to Canute)
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RE: Seriously, Why are Black Holes Still Hard to Build ... - 5/28/2010 6:31:19 PM   
jscott991


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quote:

ORIGINAL: feygan

Generally both black holes and neutron stars I just build from the galaxy map. Zoom out to a sector view then use the ship menu when you click the black hole and the "build at"


I did this and it went right in the hole.

(in reply to feygan)
Post #: 10
RE: Seriously, Why are Black Holes Still Hard to Build ... - 5/28/2010 6:35:00 PM   
Webbco


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I have the same issue. It's very frustrating.

(in reply to jscott991)
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RE: Seriously, Why are Black Holes Still Hard to Build ... - 5/28/2010 9:04:33 PM   
taltamir

 

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those are all nice suggestions on how to get around the problem. But there is still a problem.

_____________________________

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RE: Seriously, Why are Black Holes Still Hard to Build ... - 5/28/2010 11:29:33 PM   
Arnir


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quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

those are all nice suggestions on how to get around the problem. But there is still a problem.


I agree. I firmly believe in Matrix's commitment to the game but the inability to get this simple stuff right is making me shelve the game. I want to enjoy this game but the constant up and down of the game patches is getting to me. I get annoyed by the developers not getting the economic balance right but having a game that advertises the lack of micromanagement that makes it hard to build a base is just getting to be too much for me right now.

Even when it was legal in the US to return games I maybe returned 5 games in my whole life, but if I could return this one I would and pick it up in 6 months again if the boards warranted it.

(in reply to taltamir)
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RE: Seriously, Why are Black Holes Still Hard to Build ... - 5/28/2010 11:33:11 PM   
taltamir

 

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I was going more for "there is a problem that needs fixing, so lets report it and I am sure they will" rather then "return the game"...

_____________________________

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Post #: 14
RE: Seriously, Why are Black Holes Still Hard to Build ... - 5/28/2010 11:38:02 PM   
Arnir


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quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

I was going more for "there is a problem that needs fixing, so lets report it and I am sure they will" rather then "return the game"...


I know you were and I'm not saying people should return the game. I'm simply saying that as a long time Matrix customer, I've finally reached my breaking point. I did not sign on to be a beta tester for this game. Sorry if I am derailing here.

(in reply to taltamir)
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RE: Seriously, Why are Black Holes Still Hard to Build ... - 5/29/2010 1:24:56 AM   
Fishman

 

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Don't build things IN the swirly part of the black hole. That's the part of the black hole where everything gets sucked in to its doom. Build outside the swirly part.

(in reply to Arnir)
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RE: Seriously, Why are Black Holes Still Hard to Build ... - 5/29/2010 3:38:08 AM   
Dadekster

 

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I believe there is even a purplish colored ring that shows the border of where the vortex starts. Build just outside of that. I have no idea how far you can build from it before losing the bonus however.

(in reply to Fishman)
Post #: 17
RE: Seriously, Why are Black Holes Still Hard to Build ... - 5/29/2010 3:59:01 AM   
taltamir

 

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i think he was referring to the fact that incoming ships do NOT land exactly where you tell them to, they land in a random spot a constant radius of X away from where you told them to go...

if you tell them to build far enough from the black hole so that said radius will not intersect the black hole's edge, then you do not gain the bonus... if you tell them to build close enough, then there is a good chance of them falling in the black hole by accident...

well, you know what? it happens... When I was bothered by it I simply build my stations in supernova (4.5x multiplier vs 6x of a black hole)...

I think it might also be related to what some other guy said... that black holes do NOT give the bonus unless you had an explorer "explore" them first... this would explain what I have seen before (I thought they were bugged and later fixed... because in the last game I got stations getting the bonus which were much further out then I have placed stations which didn't get the bonus in previous games)

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to Dadekster)
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RE: Seriously, Why are Black Holes Still Hard to Build ... - 5/29/2010 8:22:04 AM   
Canute

 

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Noone prevent you from thinking abit.
I think everyone know here, a Black hole is a dangerous thing compared to a Neutron star. And you should know a default Const. ship isn't that fast like an explorer or any militaery ship.
Normal ships CAN escape the Black hole when they come out of hyperspace to close, except they got destroyed instantly.
But a Const. is to slow he will run out of fuel by reaching his build spot and then he fall into the black holo.

Solutions
- made your Const. ship faster. IMO its a good idea to enhance all private ships with some more sublight engines anyway.
- don't build to close at the border to the black hole, build the station at that side you think your Const. ship will be coming from.
- watch your const. ship when it enter the black hole system. Then you can order it to hyper out when you see it at danger.

Yes, i lost a few Const. ship too, but only at my first few games. After that i know where to place the station and didn't loose one anymore.
And i placed at any Black hole a Resort base for sure,  tourist love that.
BTW, you can't queue a Resort base on a black hole.


(in reply to taltamir)
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RE: Seriously, Why are Black Holes Still Hard to Build ... - 5/29/2010 8:43:00 AM   
Fishman

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

if you tell them to build far enough from the black hole so that said radius will not intersect the black hole's edge, then you do not gain the bonus... if you tell them to build close enough, then there is a good chance of them falling in the black hole by accident...
That's ridiculous. I have never had a construction ship simply FALL in a black hole. The system size is HUGE compared to the actual size of the black hole itself. Unless you are trying to build it in a way that the station is JUST about to fall in, so as to make half the attackers who jump out of warp to try to attack your station promptly get sucked in and die, you should have no difficulty at all.

Incidentally, doing this is very funny, but no one said it had to be easy or necessary.

(in reply to taltamir)
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RE: Seriously, Why are Black Holes Still Hard to Build ... - 5/29/2010 8:54:46 AM   
taltamir

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

if you tell them to build far enough from the black hole so that said radius will not intersect the black hole's edge, then you do not gain the bonus... if you tell them to build close enough, then there is a good chance of them falling in the black hole by accident...
That's ridiculous. I have never had a construction ship simply FALL in a black hole. The system size is HUGE compared to the actual size of the black hole itself. Unless you are trying to build it in a way that the station is JUST about to fall in, so as to make half the attackers who jump out of warp to try to attack your station promptly get sucked in and die, you should have no difficulty at all.

Incidentally, doing this is very funny, but no one said it had to be easy or necessary.


Which goes back to the issue that the black hole does not provide the bonus unless it has been "explored"... this results in people coming to the conclusion that you must not be "close enough" to the event horizon to get the bonus, so they inch closer and closer until their ships are falling in...
Happened to me, happened to him...
Now I know that its not due to distance, but due to exploration status, and that an exploration ship would take care of it.

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to Fishman)
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RE: Seriously, Why are Black Holes Still Hard to Build ... - 5/29/2010 3:21:41 PM   
lordxorn


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I have wrote about this issue in my Micro AAR, if you want to check it out Here.

I have to confirm this, but before the recent patches you could select the black hole itself and see a shaded zone that is outside the even horizon, and close enough to count for a bonus.

However it seems to have been removed with the latest patches. I am trying to have this confirmed by the devs.

_____________________________

Distant Worlds Star Wars Mod

(in reply to taltamir)
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RE: Seriously, Why are Black Holes Still Hard to Build ... - 5/29/2010 3:38:46 PM   
Canute

 

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Event horizon is the border between the black hole and the whirling thing around. It the border where the light isn't fast enough anymore to escape the star. What you mean is the accretion disk the whirling thing.

It allways happen to me.
Unexplored black hole, you can't target the black hole self, you can't see the border of the accretion disk, you dont know the "safe" area.





(in reply to lordxorn)
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RE: Seriously, Why are Black Holes Still Hard to Build ... - 5/29/2010 3:49:32 PM   
lordxorn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canute

Event horizon is the border between the black hole and the whirling thing around. It the border where the light isn't fast enough anymore to escape the star. What you mean is the accretion disk the whirling thing.

It allways happen to me.
Unexplored black hole, you can't target the black hole self, you can't see the border of the accretion disk, you dont know the "safe" area.







Of course you have to have an exploration ship explore the system first, and if any ship get's caught in the point of no return, which is why I call it the event horizon, you can simply have the ship jump out.

(in reply to Canute)
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RE: Seriously, Why are Black Holes Still Hard to Build ... - 5/29/2010 6:10:05 PM   
the1sean


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jscott991

The AI can build stations around Black Holes with ease. He does it all the time. But for some reason, the AI refuses to build industry or high tech research stations for the longest time.



I dont see why by default research stations are all tech specific, I just design a generic station that techs everything and has tons of firepower and shields. Yes, I put all my eggs in one basket, but that basket can level a small fleet...

(in reply to jscott991)
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RE: Seriously, Why are Black Holes Still Hard to Build ... - 5/29/2010 6:57:29 PM   
lordxorn


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Yes this is what I do, much more cost effective.

(in reply to the1sean)
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RE: Seriously, Why are Black Holes Still Hard to Build ... - 5/29/2010 7:53:18 PM   
Astax

 

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I design a mega Energy research station. Although in theory you should use the tech path with cheapest techs, which might be HT, or I. That way when you are not crashing tech, you get some meaningful gains!

(in reply to lordxorn)
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RE: Seriously, Why are Black Holes Still Hard to Build ... - 5/30/2010 12:34:00 AM   
taltamir

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: the1sean

quote:

ORIGINAL: jscott991

The AI can build stations around Black Holes with ease. He does it all the time. But for some reason, the AI refuses to build industry or high tech research stations for the longest time.



I dont see why by default research stations are all tech specific, I just design a generic station that techs everything and has tons of firepower and shields. Yes, I put all my eggs in one basket, but that basket can level a small fleet...


its also a cheaper basket...

The advantage of design specific stations is it is a first layer of controller over research...
I just recently developed the following strategy:
I would decide which of the 4 tech fields I want to "focus" on... then make a station with 20 labs, and goog armament and build a couple of those VERY close to each other (so they can help each other in a fight) near a black hole... i remove ALL labs from my space ports, and I would retire (and obsolete) all other kinds of lab bases... so that way 100% of research is just weapons, or something... I can still do crash research on anything and get the full amount with no penalty to any field. But without paying i get a focused research... and when I deplete weapon research i just scuttle them all and build another kind (eventually you get all the tech you need and scuttle all of them)

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to the1sean)
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RE: Seriously, Why are Black Holes Still Hard to Build ... - 5/30/2010 2:21:02 AM   
Fishman

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

Which goes back to the issue that the black hole does not provide the bonus unless it has been "explored"... this results in people coming to the conclusion that you must not be "close enough" to the event horizon to get the bonus, so they inch closer and closer until their ships are falling in...
No, this is also horse puckey. I pretty much start every single game by immediately scoping the galactic map for the nearest black hole and, without even bothering to send an exploration ship, immediately queue a construction ship to go and build the Obligatory Standard Issue Research Station there. I have never not received the bonus, because the system is explored simply when your construction ship enters the system.

(in reply to taltamir)
Post #: 29
RE: Seriously, Why are Black Holes Still Hard to Build ... - 5/30/2010 3:57:58 AM   
taltamir

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

Which goes back to the issue that the black hole does not provide the bonus unless it has been "explored"... this results in people coming to the conclusion that you must not be "close enough" to the event horizon to get the bonus, so they inch closer and closer until their ships are falling in...
No, this is also horse puckey. I pretty much start every single game by immediately scoping the galactic map for the nearest black hole and, without even bothering to send an exploration ship, immediately queue a construction ship to go and build the Obligatory Standard Issue Research Station there. I have never not received the bonus, because the system is explored simply when your construction ship enters the system.


then:
1. whomever said it needs to be explored is wrong.
2. there is some other bug or issue that causes it to sometimes not give the bonus...
I have played games where it did not give the bonus even though i built the stations extremely close to the event horizon. but in my last game I build it quite a way off and I got the bonus in full.

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to Fishman)
Post #: 30
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