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What's New - May help people with price increase - 5/27/2010 1:30:52 AM   
Grim.Reaper


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I know I'm now a fence sitter as to whether to buy, but is there a definitive list of everything that was updated for this version? I know on the surface it looks roughly the same as past titles, but can we be provided a list of all the major enhancements and changes? Maybe that will assist people in their buying decisions. I saw the info on the product page, but is there more then that which can be shared?

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RE: What's New - May help people with price increase - 5/27/2010 1:44:31 AM   
Chad Harrison


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Also remember, they are working on a free demo. That should help some of the fence sitters.

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RE: What's New - May help people with price increase - 5/27/2010 1:47:00 AM   
Grim.Reaper


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chad Harrison

Also remember, they are working on a free demo. That should help some of the fence sitters.

Agreed, but seems most of the changes are "under the hood" so would be nice to have a list if possible. The game was in development for many years so probably should be a lot of things to list to go along with saying the price was to help compensate for all the work done.

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RE: What's New - May help people with price increase - 5/27/2010 10:07:33 AM   
Arjuna


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GrimReaper,

Thanks for your suggestion. We probably have over a thousand task tracker items on things that have been changed, added or deleted. It's truly huge and our Task Tracker database gave up the ghost almost a year ago. So we chose to include only the main changes on the product page. I have discussed and given examples of many changes in the New Stuff thread that's in the "stickied" list at the top of this forum. I'll try and elaborate more over the coming days.

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RE: What's New - May help people with price increase - 5/27/2010 10:49:38 AM   
jomni


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I suggest that you develop a patch to upgrade HTTR and COTA with the new engine.
This will surely entice the fans. And only give the installers to those who bought BftB.


< Message edited by jomni -- 5/27/2010 10:50:58 AM >


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RE: What's New - May help people with price increase - 5/27/2010 2:48:06 PM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jomni

I suggest that you develop a patch to upgrade HTTR and COTA with the new engine.
This will surely entice the fans. And only give the installers to those who bought BftB.



Panther already realized any HttR upgrade was unworkable.

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RE: What's New - May help people with price increase - 5/27/2010 3:06:25 PM   
jomni


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Why not do it the other way around?
Use the editor of the engine to port over the old scenarios and maps.



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RE: What's New - May help people with price increase - 5/27/2010 3:26:13 PM   
boatrigm


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I agree with jomni. Is there some reason you can't build the HTTR and COTA scenarios with the editor?

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RE: What's New - May help people with price increase - 5/27/2010 4:02:43 PM   
GoodGuy

 

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quote:



"May help people with price increase"


Sorry, but this really got me laughing, lol. This wording makes it sound like people who wonder or who complain about the price tag are having an illness ... or an allergy... or showing a symptom, say like the price-increase-o-phobia ... lol

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RE: What's New - May help people with price increase - 5/27/2010 5:16:19 PM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: boatrigm

I agree with jomni. Is there some reason you can't build the HTTR and COTA scenarios with the editor?


Panther didn't give a reason ...

Edit: Sorry, but I totally misunderstood this thread.

< Message edited by Joe D. -- 5/28/2010 11:58:42 AM >


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RE: What's New - May help people with price increase - 5/27/2010 5:19:30 PM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GoodGuy

quote:



"May help people with price increase"


Sorry, but this really got me laughing, lol. This wording makes it sound like people who wonder or who complain about the price tag are having an illness ... or an allergy... or showing a symptom, say like the price-increase-o-phobia ... lol


Things have become so PC these days that I wouldn't be surprised if there was something like this in the latest DSM listed under "fear of numbers".

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RE: What's New - May help people with price increase - 5/27/2010 7:13:53 PM   
simovitch


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quote:

ORIGINAL: boatrigm

I agree with jomni. Is there some reason you can't build the HTTR and COTA scenarios with the editor?


There's no reason why you can't build the HTTR scenarios with the editor, because the HTTR estabs already come with the BFTB estabs. Note that the editor works with XML files, not the estab file itself. so you would need the COTA xml files to even work on them. I believe there is a bit of work that would need to be done for Panther to generate an XML file for COTA that works with the new Command Ops estab format.

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RE: What's New - May help people with price increase - 5/27/2010 8:35:46 PM   
mjk428

 

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Is there a list somewhere detailing the 27 scenarios?

That would help me see the value of a game focused on such a small slice of WW2.

It might also help me understand how I could spend "hundreds of hours" replaying the Battle of the Bulge. Which on its face sounds like a form of purgatory. :)

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RE: What's New - May help people with price increase - 5/27/2010 9:50:52 PM   
simovitch


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mjk428

Is there a list somewhere detailing the 27 scenarios?

That would help me see the value of a game focused on such a small slice of WW2.

It might also help me understand how I could spend "hundreds of hours" replaying the Battle of the Bulge. Which on its face sounds like a form of purgatory. :)

Nothing can beat the "Google Earth" tour for scenario detail, short of buying the game itself.

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RE: What's New - May help people with price increase - 5/27/2010 9:58:27 PM   
milkweg


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I suggest that at the current price they throw in COTA for free. I will buy it then because I only have HTTR so far.

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RE: What's New - May help people with price increase - 5/28/2010 1:17:51 AM   
Joe 98


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mjk428
That would help me see the value of a game focused on such a small slice of WW2.

It might also help me understand how I could spend "hundreds of hours" replaying the Battle of the Bulge. Which on its face sounds like a form of purgatory. :)



Most wargames cover the whole of the campaign of the Bulge. This covers individual battles within the campaign. Many of these battles are interesting in their own right.

As to the game engine: I feel, it is at its best in wide open terrain. The Western desert and Russia come to mind. But these locations don't involve US soldeirs so Panther chose the Bulge. The Bulge campaign also utilised a lot of bridge blowing and re-building already built into the game engine.

It seems to me that Patton's break out needed wide open spaces and involved US soldiers..................

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RE: What's New - May help people with price increase - 5/29/2010 12:09:08 AM   
Grim.Reaper


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

GrimReaper,

Thanks for your suggestion. We probably have over a thousand task tracker items on things that have been changed, added or deleted. It's truly huge and our Task Tracker database gave up the ghost almost a year ago. So we chose to include only the main changes on the product page. I have discussed and given examples of many changes in the New Stuff thread that's in the "stickied" list at the top of this forum. I'll try and elaborate more over the coming days.

I was just curious if we are any closer on providing the details. I'm very interested in understand the differences since it may help sway myself and others if we knew everything that changed between versions. Thanks.

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RE: What's New - May help people with price increase - 5/29/2010 12:39:22 AM   
Agema

 

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Problem affording a game?

Take a second job! You'll only need to work about 10hours on the minimum wage - and isn't it worth 10h of McD's?

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RE: What's New - May help people with price increase - 5/29/2010 12:57:46 AM   
Grim.Reaper


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Agema

Problem affording a game?

Take a second job! You'll only need to work about 10hours on the minimum wage - and isn't it worth 10h of McD's?



What are you talking about? Nothing to do with my post.

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RE: What's New - May help people with price increase - 5/29/2010 2:28:12 AM   
Arjuna


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Point taken guys. Here's an old list I prepared for the beta testers some time ago. It needs updating. I will endeavour to do so as soon as I can. In the emantime here it is.
BFTB - What’s New
Big Ticket Items
• AI – Automated Bridge Building
o When you order a Move, the AI will divide the assigned force into those that can reach the objective, those that must rebuild a bridge to do so and those that cannot reach regardless ( eg static ). For those that need to rebuild a bridge, it will automatically schedule tasks to move to the crossing, construct for engineers and defend for others at the crossing and then to move on after the bridge is built.
o It will repeat this process as many times as needed - eg if two rivers lie across the route, it will schedule move, construct/defend, move, construct/defend and a final move to the objective.
o It will cater for multiple waypoints.
• AI – Restructured Force Groups
o Enabling technology for the new Order of Battle Display features
o Now uses a tree list to store what units belong to a force. This enables cross attachments to be saved. So when you order a selection of forces and then issue new orders the same structure will be preserved.
o Provide Organic, Player and Current force groups for each side
 The Organic structure is the normal or default structure ( as used in COTA )
 The Player structure is the structure derived from the orders you issue
 The Current structure is in effect after the AI has developed its plans.
• UI – Order of Battle Display Enhancements
o Can display Organic, Player and Current force structures
o Can filter the Organic OB by on-Map status, reinforcements and dead units
o Linked to Command Lines
o Can now issue orders to the currently selected force in the OB display
• UI – Estab Data Views
o Double click an item in the equipment list to display its estab data, which includes a description, image and performance details ( and armaments for vehicles ).
• UI – AI – Task Options
o Provide a range of options to your orders, including:
 Allow Ambush ( hold fire till enemy within ambush range )
 Allow Attacks ( force can initiate attacks )
 Allow Bypass ( force can bypass enemy )
 Allow Stragglers ( tired and disorganised units can be left behind )
 Ignore Basing (Arty and Depots stay with force )
 Retake Position ( force will try to retake the objective when Defending )
 Avoid Friendlies ( Arty will stop bombarding if friendlies nearby )
o Provide means to set the Start and End times for all tasks and the Assault At time for Attacks. So now you can coordinate different tasks like ending a bombardment as the assault starts or ensuring that all your forces start at the same time.
o Provide means to set the ammo, fuel and basic supply expenditure level for a task. Use this to prioritise the supply effort to a particular force.
Other Cool Stuff
• UI – MapPatterns – now change with the weather ( moddable )
• UI - Pathing Tool - now displays an estimate of the time to complete in the Tools tab.
• UI – Task Tools – disable those that the selected unit/force cannot perform
• UI – Startup Screen – New
• UI – Panther GUI - Enhanced
• MapMaker – Copy and paste objects between layers
• ScenMaker – Set Initial Orders Delay for each side
• ScenMaker – Set Initial Stock Level for each unit
• ScenMaker – Can now set all effectiveness, strength and equipment quantity values to zero, if required.
• AI – Enhanced Force Allocation code – is better at:
o keeping Battalions together,
o ensuring groups have the right force mix for the task at hand,
o ensuring engineer units are allocated to the priority tasks ( eg bridge building )
o load balancing between tasks
o increasing priority of nearby objectives
• AI – Attack code – is better at:
o allocating units on the far side or too far away to independent tasks
o scheduling the various subtasks so they progress with minimum delays
o avoiding forming up near other attacks
o avoiding moving subUnits through bad terrain that would slow down the main body
• AI – Scheduling code – is better at:
o automatically extending Move, Construct and Assault tasks that have not achieved their objective
o automatically cribbing ( bringing forward ) tasks that have achieved their objective
• AI – Route Finding code – is better at:
o determining shortest paths
o determining formation offset routes
o avoiding crossing rivers when required
o avoiding unreachable terrain
o determining crossings that must be rebuilt
• AI – Formation Movement code – is better at:
o using phase lines when not near enemy but maintaining position when enemy nearby– speeds up progress when not in contact, more realistic.
o moving mixed foot/motorised forces
• Data Content – Estabs
• Data Content – Maps
• Data Content – Scenarios
• Data Content – Tour Video


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RE: What's New - May help people with price increase - 5/29/2010 2:44:20 AM   
thewood1

 

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OK, I have to ask; where was this list a few days ago?  Seeing the lists and the discussions has actually moved me quite a bit towards giving this a shot. 

Is this just poor marketing.  I mean, you know you are going to release something at a price point that will shock even your most loyal customers.  And even after release and you get hundreds of posts heatedly discussing the worth of the product, yet no answer to a couple of people asking the same question.

Wouldn't you rather have completely prepared a list to prove to everyone how much work went into this product.

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RE: What's New - May help people with price increase - 5/29/2010 5:57:45 AM   
Arjuna


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thewood1,

In an ideal world, yes I agree. But keep this in mind, up until last Monday we were working non stop to finish development. I was counting on a few days to rest and then address these matters. But Matrix and Digital River surprised me with an unexpected early release. So there's been no rest and I'm playing catchup. Please be patient.

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RE: What's New - May help people with price increase - 5/29/2010 6:01:29 AM   
Grim.Reaper


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

thewood1,

In an ideal world, yes I agree. But keep this in mind, up until last Monday we were working non stop to finish development. I was counting on a few days to rest and then address these matters. But Matrix and Digital River surprised me with an unexpected early release. So there's been no rest and I'm playing catchup. Please be patient.

Dave, I appreciated the time you took to provide me the requested details. After looking at the list, certainly does look impressive and something to defintely advertise or sticky at the top of the page which helps explain this is just more than a simple upgrade.

As for me, it certainly is making me reconsider my original position of not purchasing, plus with all the good feeedback being provided.

Thanks again.

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RE: What's New - May help people with price increase - 5/29/2010 5:10:00 PM   
mariandavid

 

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Just two points from somebody who has played the two earlier iterations of the Panther Game engine:

-- First I think the scenarios are more interesting than before (I like tanks on both sides all the time!!) and more important more balanced in the sense that one can enjoy playing both sides - which in theory doubles the playing time
-- Seond I suspect that the AI is more intelligent - a critical factor for me - for example I have noted that it is much more efficient in laying down artillery support (a weak point in earlier games from my judgement), while also sometimes responding in unpredictable ways.

Rather like WitP/AE as mentioned elsewhere this is a game that rewards immersion; you have to like planning and have a degree of patience. If you appreciate that it is an excellent purchase.

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RE: What's New - May help people with price increase - 6/16/2010 4:12:35 PM   
CptWasp


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Sorry I can't find a new features list; is the one in this thread the best one? Or there is a more complete/updated one?

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RE: What's New - May help people with price increase - 6/16/2010 6:10:52 PM   
PirateJock


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As far as I am aware the one in this thread is the most complete one available at the moment.

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RE: What's New - May help people with price increase - 6/16/2010 6:55:30 PM   
simovitch


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There's always the 'new stuff' sticky thread but I assume everyone has seen that already.

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RE: What's New - May help people with price increase - 6/16/2010 7:22:12 PM   
MarkShot


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I covered quite a bit of the new stuff you could see in the BFTB Mini-Guide above.

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