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RE: Price? - 6/14/2010 3:57:31 PM   
CptWasp


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My 2 cents. For me the price would be OK only for a gold edition, including HTTR+COTA scenarios with the new engine. But considering that armor issues, strange AI moves and other odd things are still present like in COTA and that PERSONALLY I feel the game is still basically the same I think it's overpriced.

I think that the price was intended exactly for the type of users on this forum: wargame grognards, thinking that spending 30$ more or less is irrelevant (I'm not criticizing this, it's only a consideration).

I love the series, consider this: I reviewed COTA with 9.2 (9.2!) on 10. But I can't find in the game enough new material to justify this price.

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Post #: 631
RE: Price? - 6/14/2010 4:00:33 PM   
wodin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CptWasp

My 2 cents. For me the price would be OK only for a gold edition, including HTTR+COTA scenarios with the new engine. But considering that armor issues, strange AI moves and other odd things are still present like in COTA and that PERSONALLY I feel the game is still basically the same I think it's overpriced.

I think that the price was intended exactly for the type of users on this forum: wargame grognards, thinking that spending 30$ more or less is irrelevant (I'm not criticizing this, it's only a consideration).

I love the series, consider this: I reviewed COTA with 9.2 (9.2!) on 10. But I can't find in the game enough new material to justify this price.


I think your forgetting the Est Editor which opens up the game for a long time as I'm sure lots of user made content will come out which you didn't get with the previous games...also I think the problems are far less noticable than the previous games.

There you go BillyJJ and Major someone who has bought it and isn't to happy...see where not brainwashed

< Message edited by wodin -- 6/14/2010 4:11:42 PM >


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Post #: 632
RE: Price? - 6/14/2010 4:15:36 PM   
CptWasp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

quote:

ORIGINAL: CptWasp

My 2 cents. For me the price would be OK only for a gold edition, including HTTR+COTA scenarios with the new engine. But considering that armor issues, strange AI moves and other odd things are still present like in COTA and that PERSONALLY I feel the game is still basically the same I think it's overpriced.

I think that the price was intended exactly for the type of users on this forum: wargame grognards, thinking that spending 30$ more or less is irrelevant (I'm not criticizing this, it's only a consideration).

I love the series, consider this: I reviewed COTA with 9.2 (9.2!) on 10. But I can't find in the game enough new material to justify this price.


I think your forgetting the Est Editor which opens up the game for a long time as I'm sure lots of user made ciontent will come out which you didn't get with the previous games...also I think the problems are far less noticable than the previous games.


I don't give much value to it, it's true. I'm not a modder and I don't know if there will be enough people creating scenarios. Maybe it requires a lot of work and that the price will discourage many from buying. In many other games editors are given free at some point (sometimes in the first release).

About problems: personally I think that the armor problem is a lot bigger in BftB, because there are a lot more tanks.

I still like BftB, but without HTTR and COTA scenarios the price is too high for me.

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Post #: 633
RE: Price? - 6/14/2010 4:52:48 PM   
wodin


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I posted a replied to your worries in the other thread...the problems your seeing are being reproted as you can see from a few posts...I imagine a few people are wary about posting this sort of thing because of they might feel that the anti price lobby will pounce and say weve all been ripped off. Also alot of people are new to the game so probably don't notice yet anything out of the ordinary.

I really do think if we all highlight the issues they will get sorted out as the price warrants it. I really can't see Panther Games not resolving the issues with patch's because they know the game has cost a fair bit more than the normal so it needs to work well. It's abit of a concern that some issues are left over from the previous games but I do feel there not as bad as then so they have been worked on but they need abit more. Also all of us are playing the game so issues will arise that beta testers would have missed.

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Post #: 634
RE: Price? - 6/14/2010 5:07:54 PM   
Arsan

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CptWasp

My 2 cents. For me the price would be OK only for a gold edition, including HTTR+COTA scenarios with the new engine.


Good point! For that i will consider spending 80 euros, even if i already own HHTR and COTA and RDOA (and even that cool HTTR strategy guide).
Honesty i have never understood why Panther has not done something like this before. Letting all that great scenarios from HHTR of COTA "waste" themselves in old engines is a shame. Most of the work its already done isn't??
Updating them to the newest engine for a reasonable fee or including them in the new game to justify its rip-off price woudl have been a great idea IMHO.

I would like to add my 2 cents at this looog thread i have been reading.
Personally, even as a long time fan of Panther i will not be buying BFTB.
It's not that i can't afford it (even if i'm suffering the economic crisis, luckily things are not so bad that i cannot afford spending 80 euros) or that i think its not a good game.
It's just that i don't think it has anything worthy of such a special premium price.
Its sounds like a good evolution of a great gaming engine, but there is nothing revolutionary in it nor does it offer anything substantially different of the previous games or an exceptionally high level of content (as the other games, it has a lot of scenarios over the same campaign, one that i'm not specially interested in personally. Good level of content, but not anything to write home about).
DOes it has lots of nice tweaks and improvements?? sure.
A decent amount of content?? Sure.
A polished and innovative gaming engine?? Sure, as it has been since RDOA.
Something to justify paying twice the price of a normal game??. IMHO, no. Not at all.

The worst about this price thing is not that i feel Panther is digging themselves deeper and deeper on a still smaller niche of war gamers, scaring away a lot of potential new players that will pass on the game because of the price.
Not good for the future of the engine or the company, no matter how good are your games.

As an example, on this thread, a lot of pages back, Erik explained how they had upped the price of COTA lately to help support BFTB development. When i read it i though... "god, that's so bad!... why don't they think bigger??"
I don't know how many extra $ did the get increasing COTA's price by 10$?? I bet not that much...
Wouldn't it had been better to put that game (or even HHTR) at 20 bucks so new players would take the chance and get to know the gaming system??
Surely they would have improved sales a lot (after all, both games where already pass their prime time, i don't think the sell a lot at 50$) and more importantly, get new players to know and get hooked into the great Panther engine, and ready to get into BFTB when released.
But it seems they prefer to sell less and less games at higher price that more games cheaper, when the later means increasing their players community which means more buzz on the net about the games and more scenarios and more mods and more... future!.
Cheers!




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Post #: 635
RE: Price? - 6/14/2010 8:19:33 PM   
billyjj

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CptWasp

I think that the price was intended exactly for the type of users on this forum: wargame grognards, thinking that spending 30$ more or less is irrelevant (I'm not criticizing this, it's only a consideration).



Well I'm starting to think that they made the right choice, most of the "regulars" seem to have bought the game.. They have decided to start price gouging the fans of these games, what a shame that is... especially now that it is starting to slowly come out that this game isn't as great as everyone thought. Thank you for speaking the truth

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Post #: 636
RE: Price? - 6/14/2010 8:32:51 PM   
billyjj

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

I posted a replied to your worries in the other thread...the problems your seeing are being reproted as you can see from a few posts...I imagine a few people are wary about posting this sort of thing because of they might feel that the anti price lobby will pounce and say weve all been ripped off. Also alot of people are new to the game so probably don't notice yet anything out of the ordinary.

I really do think if we all highlight the issues they will get sorted out as the price warrants it. I really can't see Panther Games not resolving the issues with patch's because they know the game has cost a fair bit more than the normal so it needs to work well. It's abit of a concern that some issues are left over from the previous games but I do feel there not as bad as then so they have been worked on but they need abit more. Also all of us are playing the game so issues will arise that beta testers would have missed.


They patch 40 dollar games too.. matter of fact just go to paradox forum their games have never ending patches with broken gameplay... so in that sense you guys got a better deal for 80 dollars than 40 dollars on HOI3.. unless of course there is some game breaking balance issue that only comes up once everyone gets the hang of the game. Like WW2 Time of Wrath still waiting on the patch to fix the tac bombers, and re balance the scenarios, I think everyone that bought that game has pretty much stopped playing it once they realized it is pointless.. do I feel ripped off, not really... but i could be a happier man. This is one of the reasons people should be hesitant to shell out 80 bucks on a game that may or may not be playable after a month.

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Post #: 637
RE: Price? - 6/14/2010 10:12:54 PM   
wodin


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Billy,

I told you the other day there are posts on here about problems with the game....it's just that it's been said in detail on here.

Even with the problems so far only one person has said he feels it isn't worth the price...these problems will get fixed...

No one was hiding something from you...you only have to read the other threads on here to see whats been said above.

Your post is exactly why no one posts here about things that could be fixed...



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Post #: 638
RE: Price? - 6/14/2010 10:20:22 PM   
wodin


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This is thread is getting idiotic now....I had problems with the price at first but I have the game and I do know even with its problems its worth the money TO ME! Infact I always knew it was worth the money it was that I diodn't think I could afford it, that was my problem.

Also worth the money to others aswell.

I understand people who are upset because they can't afford it....however those who bang on about it not being worth the money are getting boring now....don't buy it if you think it isn't worth it and it looks like your not going to....your loss in my opinion....

Honestly I really feel you all need to give it a rest now...

This thread is now dead to me...



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Post #: 639
RE: Price? - 6/14/2010 11:12:49 PM   
Sheytan


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I dont follow. Didnt you get a free copy of the game? Frankly, if you did you really need to relax. No matter what everything will filter itself and settle down in time. Further only one or two people seem to be hard core on the its not worth it tangent. So what? As to me I still will not buy it...least till a demo comes out.

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

This is thread is getting idiotic now....I had problems with the price at first but I have the game and I do know even with its problems its worth the money TO ME! Infact I always knew it was worth the money it was that I diodn't think I could afford it, that was my problem.

Also worth the money to others aswell.

I understand people who are upset because they can't afford it....however those who bang on about it not being worth the money are getting boring now....don't buy it if you think it isn't worth it and it looks like your not going to....your loss in my opinion....

Honestly I really feel you all need to give it a rest now...

This thread is now dead to me...




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Post #: 640
RE: Price? - 6/15/2010 12:29:51 AM   
Joram

 

Posts: 3197
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arsan


quote:

ORIGINAL: CptWasp

My 2 cents. For me the price would be OK only for a gold edition, including HTTR+COTA scenarios with the new engine.


Good point! For that i will consider spending 80 euros, even if i already own HHTR and COTA and RDOA (and even that cool HTTR strategy guide).
Honesty i have never understood why Panther has not done something like this before. Letting all that great scenarios from HHTR of COTA "waste" themselves in old engines is a shame. Most of the work its already done isn't??
Updating them to the newest engine for a reasonable fee or including them in the new game to justify its rip-off price woudl have been a great idea IMHO.

I would like to add my 2 cents at this looog thread i have been reading.
Personally, even as a long time fan of Panther i will not be buying BFTB.
It's not that i can't afford it (even if i'm suffering the economic crisis, luckily things are not so bad that i cannot afford spending 80 euros) or that i think its not a good game.
It's just that i don't think it has anything worthy of such a special premium price.
Its sounds like a good evolution of a great gaming engine, but there is nothing revolutionary in it nor does it offer anything substantially different of the previous games or an exceptionally high level of content (as the other games, it has a lot of scenarios over the same campaign, one that i'm not specially interested in personally. Good level of content, but not anything to write home about).
DOes it has lots of nice tweaks and improvements?? sure.
A decent amount of content?? Sure.
A polished and innovative gaming engine?? Sure, as it has been since RDOA.
Something to justify paying twice the price of a normal game??. IMHO, no. Not at all.

The worst about this price thing is not that i feel Panther is digging themselves deeper and deeper on a still smaller niche of war gamers, scaring away a lot of potential new players that will pass on the game because of the price.
Not good for the future of the engine or the company, no matter how good are your games.

As an example, on this thread, a lot of pages back, Erik explained how they had upped the price of COTA lately to help support BFTB development. When i read it i though... "god, that's so bad!... why don't they think bigger??"
I don't know how many extra $ did the get increasing COTA's price by 10$?? I bet not that much...
Wouldn't it had been better to put that game (or even HHTR) at 20 bucks so new players would take the chance and get to know the gaming system??
Surely they would have improved sales a lot (after all, both games where already pass their prime time, i don't think the sell a lot at 50$) and more importantly, get new players to know and get hooked into the great Panther engine, and ready to get into BFTB when released.
But it seems they prefer to sell less and less games at higher price that more games cheaper, when the later means increasing their players community which means more buzz on the net about the games and more scenarios and more mods and more... future!.
Cheers!





I think they were a bit inconsistent in their responses. Exchange rate alone could explain much of the price increase but that wasn't consistently used as an answer which naturally leads to more questions.

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Post #: 641
RE: Price? - You get what you pay for!! - 6/15/2010 1:11:40 AM   
LRRP

 

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quote:

I don't get the logic here. You must have a printed manual because you're old fashioned but you don't want a printed manual afterall.

Why don't you just say say what you mean - you feel that a Battle of the Bulge game that explores the whole campaign in 27 scenarios and with a robust AI is a rip of for you at $80 USD.

There's always this - released in 2001, 20 scenarios (once a sentimental favourite of mine though no longer on my HD) and an AI that struggles at $50USD.

Maybe what Matrix needs is the Shamwow guy to show what "makes sense"


Thanks for your advise on HPS Bulge 44 and helping me decide to not buy the overpriced model and get a proven model at a much better price HPS Bulge 44. I played COTA again and to be honest it was ok, nothing great.

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Post #: 642
RE: Price? - 6/15/2010 1:13:22 AM   
LRRP

 

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Well said Arsan

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Post #: 643
RE: Price? - 6/15/2010 1:28:44 AM   
MajFrankBurns

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

This is thread is getting idiotic now....I had problems with the price at first but I have the game and I do know even with its problems its worth the money TO ME! Infact I always knew it was worth the money it was that I diodn't think I could afford it, that was my problem.

Also worth the money to others aswell.

I understand people who are upset because they can't afford it....however those who bang on about it not being worth the money are getting boring now....don't buy it if you think it isn't worth it and it looks like your not going to....your loss in my opinion....

Honestly I really feel you all need to give it a rest now...

This thread is now dead to me...




Waves bye bye to Wodin.


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Post #: 644
RE: Price? - 6/15/2010 2:09:55 AM   
Tophat1812

 

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nevermind

< Message edited by Tophat1812 -- 6/15/2010 2:23:37 AM >

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Post #: 645
RE: Price? - 6/15/2010 2:49:08 AM   
Obsolete


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CaptWasp, where the hell did you get that SS-Tiger avatar from?  I had looked for that one all over in the past and couldn't find it.

Ahh hell, I'll prob stick with Capt. OddBall for now anyway...




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Post #: 646
RE: Price? - 6/15/2010 2:51:24 AM   
Knavery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Obsolete

CaptWasp, where the hell did you get that SS-Tiger avatar from?  I had looked for that one all over in the past and couldn't find it.

Ahh hell, I'll prob stick with Capt. OddBall for now anyway...





Isn't that Donald Sutherland from the original Mash movie? If so, I think that rocks.

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Post #: 647
RE: Price? - 6/15/2010 2:59:36 AM   
cmurphy625


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Knavery


quote:

ORIGINAL: Obsolete

CaptWasp, where the hell did you get that SS-Tiger avatar from?  I had looked for that one all over in the past and couldn't find it.

Ahh hell, I'll prob stick with Capt. OddBall for now anyway...





Isn't that Donald Sutherland from the original Mash movie? If so, I think that rocks.


I always thought it was Oddball... "enough with the Negative Vibes Moriarty"

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Post #: 648
RE: Price? - 6/15/2010 3:29:52 AM   
Tophat1812

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cmurphy625


quote:

ORIGINAL: Knavery


quote:

ORIGINAL: Obsolete

CaptWasp, where the hell did you get that SS-Tiger avatar from?  I had looked for that one all over in the past and couldn't find it.

Ahh hell, I'll prob stick with Capt. OddBall for now anyway...





Isn't that Donald Sutherland from the original Mash movie? If so, I think that rocks.


I always thought it was Oddball... "enough with the Negative Vibes Moriarty"



That is a pick of Oddball from Kelly's Hero's.......and Oddball was a sergeant not a captain.His captain was decapitated by 88 in the bocage country,but don't say your sorry,he'd been trying to get them all killed since omaha beach.

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Post #: 649
RE: Price? - 6/15/2010 4:31:21 AM   
Knavery


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Man I miscalled that one. I don't think I've ever seen Kelly's Heroes. I did get the actor right though. :)

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RE: Price? - 6/15/2010 4:35:30 AM   
BASB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Knavery

Man I miscalled that one. I don't think I've ever seen Kelly's Heroes. I did get the actor right though. :)

Yep the finest war movie ever made................ well almost! at least with Sutherland driving in a tank

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RE: Price? - 6/15/2010 4:39:03 AM   
Obsolete


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quote:


That is a pick of Oddball from Kelly's Hero's.......and Oddball was a sergeant not a captain.His captain was decapitated by 88 in the bocage country,but don't say your sorry,he'd been trying to get them all killed since omaha beach.


It's a wasted trip baby!  Nobody said nothing about locking horns with no Tigers!




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RE: Price? - 6/15/2010 5:21:30 AM   
bretg80

 

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I agree with Wodin - this thread has become pointless.

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RE: Price? - 6/15/2010 7:14:49 AM   
Knavery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bretg80

I agree with Wodin - this thread has become pointless.


Ha... That's why we're talking about Kelly's Heroes. ;)

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RE: Price? - 6/15/2010 8:02:20 AM   
CptWasp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Obsolete
CaptWasp, where the hell did you get that SS-Tiger avatar from?  I had looked for that one all over in the past and couldn't find it.

Ahh hell, I'll prob stick with Capt. OddBall for now anyway...


Off topic: it's from Band of Heroes, a boardgame.





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Post #: 655
RE: Price? - 6/15/2010 8:26:31 AM   
JudgeDredd


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It's become pointless because of the inane rhetoric (something I have been guilty of elsewhere).

If people had just allowed others to post their feelings about the price (again something I had been guilty of and now see the fruitlessness of such posts) then Matrix and Panther would have had a clear understanding of how many were not buying the game because of price. Unfortunately, as it's turned out, that message has now been lost.

And now there is no way of getting that information...because if another thread was started about price simply asking "Sign here if you are not buying due to price", then it would inevitably be hijacked by the same people that say it's worth it, rather than them starting a thread with the topic "Say why it's worth the price".

Oh well...this is what happens when we open ourselves up to the big bad internet world of opinion

oh - and for the record, I've decided to stick to my guns re not buying. After seeing CotA in action, I was going to pull the trigger - but two (whoops - three things) things have still stopped me from doing so
1. The price - I still do not want to start supporting a hobby that's going to cost me that much money. I think if I do, then I'm sending a message to the developers and publishers that my wallet simply will not be able to cope with...therefore pricing myself out my own hobby
2. CotA - I've rediscovered it. I'm probably playing it more now than I did when I first had it
3. Conflict of Heroes Storms of Steel is waiting (or Hornet Leader...I don't know yet).

< Message edited by JudgeDredd -- 6/15/2010 9:57:21 AM >


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RE: Price? - 6/15/2010 9:43:01 AM   
Adam Parker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CptWasp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Obsolete
CaptWasp, where the hell did you get that SS-Tiger avatar from?  I had looked for that one all over in the past and couldn't find it.


Off topic: it's from Band of Heroes, a boardgame.



On topic - now if you want to talk about a waste of money, I was so enthralled with the Lock n' Load series that I invested $600 AUD in every title - some doubles.

Then I discovered that the production quality between the titles just didn't match up - different contrasts of boards, different ink hues of units (grey-pink German units in one game - the quality control was so bad), different counter thicknesses, different counter finishes (matte, gloss etc), different map finishes.

So I've now got a stack of boxes and modules ready to be packed away into storage never to be played or cut n' trimmed (if ever), again.

And just $91 for BFtB? The entire Bulge? Sold.

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RE: Price? - 6/15/2010 9:53:07 AM   
Adam Parker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

oh - and for the record, I've decided to stick to my guns re not buying. After seeing CotA in action, I was going to pull the trigger - but two things have still stopped me from doing so

1. The price - I still do not want to start supporting a hobby that's going to cost me that much money. I think if I do, then I'm sending a message to the developers and publishers that my wallet simply will not be able to cope with...therefore pricing myself out my own hobby


Judge, the price of Hornet Leader if not pre-ordered from DVG Games is $89.99 USD. The pre-order price is $69.99 USD.

Are you ok sending a message that it's ok to charge that for paper and cardboard made in China?

< Message edited by Adam Parker -- 6/15/2010 11:54:43 AM >

(in reply to JudgeDredd)
Post #: 658
RE: Price? - 6/15/2010 10:13:32 AM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8497
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Well I have no facts or figures to hand...I suspect (possibly completely wrongly) that board wargames sell less than computer wargames.

Regardless of whether that is correct or not...I do not mind spending £40-£60 for a boardgame. I don't know why that seems acceptable to me...it just is. Maybe it's because I know from past experience that if I buy a wargame that costs £75 then it's as likely to sit on my hard drive and do nothing as a £10 game. Maybe it's because I'm getting something physical and tangible with a baord game. Maybe it's because when I fire up a boardgame, I'm likely to play it through as opposed to the number of times I've fired up (and closed down) HoI3 (an example...I'm not at all comparing this game to HoI3 )...I don't know. I just know I am willing to pay £40 - £60 for a boardgame but £50 is my limit on wargames.

Anyway - I have CotA.

< Message edited by JudgeDredd -- 6/15/2010 11:45:59 AM >


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JudgeDredd
I AM the Law!

(in reply to Adam Parker)
Post #: 659
RE: Price? - 6/15/2010 11:16:29 AM   
Arsan

 

Posts: 402
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline

quote:


If people had just allowed others to post their feelings about the price (again something I had been guilty of and now see the fruitlessness of such posts) then Matrix and Panther would have had a clear understanding of how many were not buying the game because of price. Unfortunately, as it's turned out, that message has now been lost.


I guess after 658 post and more than 26000 hits on this "Price?" thread, Matrix and Panther games can at least get some idea about how charging such a high price for the game has been received by the community... i bet "controversial decision" would be an adjective all could agree upon
I'm sure they will take note of the comments, both pro and against, for future decisions. That's why i don't think this thread is pointless. Customers or people that would have been potential customers with other pricing have the right to let the developer and publisher know what they think about the issue. And this kind of feedback is useful for the company IMHO.

It's clear some people think its OK to pay premium price for BFTB and have done already or will do in the future.
Others think its too much, whether because the game is not worth the price, or can't afford the price or won't support this kind of pricing policy with their money, or whatever other reason.

What remains to be seen is if the extra $ spent by the buyers will be enough to make for the $ loss of the potential buyers that won't pay that much. But probably we will never know for sure as Matrix will not give us the numbers

I wish the best luck to Panther games as they are one of the best and most innovative wargame developers out there. But i think they have make a mistake going this way with it's pricing policy and i will not support it.
IMHO trying to expand the customer base instead of milking more out of a decreasing number of buyers would have been better for players and developers.

Cheers



(in reply to JudgeDredd)
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