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RE: Price?

 
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RE: Price? - 6/1/2010 9:10:39 PM   
Killjoy12

 

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I feel the need to post, not as a rant, but as information/feedback since it may be of some future use. I have purchased all three of the previous titles, but this price point puts it out of my reach. I enjoyed all of the previous titles, and each one was certainly an improvement over the others. While I expect this one to be better as well, its priced out of the range I'm willing to spend on a title, even one that I am familiar with (not needing a demo).

Instead, I purchased an old title - Commander: Europe at War, and am enjoying it quite a bit. Sure the AI is not fantastic, but its fun. And after years of patches and mods, it's a game that will provide me with hours of fun at about a 1/3 the cost. The irony on that purchase is that I bought it straight for the Slitherine site, as they were $15 cheaper than the Matrix site.

I wish no ill will on the developer or publisher; I just wanted to voice the opinion of someone who has purchased previous Panther titles, and would have bought this one as well. Its important to be able to track lost sales, and I was definitely one of them.

< Message edited by Killjoy12 -- 6/1/2010 9:11:12 PM >

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RE: Price? - 6/1/2010 11:17:18 PM   
Sheytan


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Wodin the CE is. Collectors Edition. The non CE boxed game plus digital download is 49.99 for Elemental. Which I will be buying I might add. Along with Vainglory of Nations. Both are reasonably priced AFAIK.



< Message edited by Sheytan -- 6/1/2010 11:18:47 PM >

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RE: Price? - 6/1/2010 11:40:19 PM   
V22 Osprey


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They haven't closed this thread yet?

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Post #: 423
RE: Price? - 6/1/2010 11:51:04 PM   
IronDuke

 

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I purchased, although I can appreciate everyone has their own price threshold, or gaming budget, and need to make their own decision. The editor stuff swung it, as I too was taken aback by the price. I'm guessing there is plenty of mileage in this title on the back of the editor stuff and decided to take the plunge.

I know nothing about Panther biographically, and wouldn't presume to tell anyone anything about business, save to very gently and respectfully suggest that if they want any sort of return on this sort of activity, then they need to reduce development time rather than get creative with pricing.

I have always gotten the impression that as a genre, this is one for the hobbyist who has a day job, develops in his spare time and does it for holiday money.

To crack this in any kind of way financially, you really need to release regularly (al a Tiller) or have mega brand recognition and the freedom to hit the really popular areas (al a 2by3). In either of these categories, after a few years, you get a back book to boot that helps fund the business.

I can appreciate the effort that goes into complex coding of this sort, and the obvious research and zealous attention to detail that has gone into the scenarios in this title, but we are a niche, these days, particularly at this level of grog, and this sort of pricing move can be a near impossible thing to get right if you start playing about with it. As one early post calculated, cheaper and more often generally trumps fewer, more expensive.

Still, none of my business. I am now off to play a scenario or two, stay up far longer than I should on a work night, and see if I can find that Panzer marching song from the movie that Robert Shaw made them all sing.

May I wish Panther every success with the game.

Regards,
ID

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Post #: 424
RE: Price? - 6/2/2010 12:02:26 AM   
Tophat1812

 

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Its a vain attempt to limit the number of "it costs too much" threads.Other threads keep popping up anyway,but most seem to regress to this one for the prolonged squawk! I think its an expensive game to be sure,but you seem to get quite a bit with the purchase.Not to mention if this is the base for numerous expansions covering the rest of the west/Italian front from 1943-45' then its a jewel.I have to sort my ATI card issue out and just buy this game.

In regards to price,how many years has Arjuna put into the development of this game? How much effort let alone what sacrifices had to be made along the way? Some people have just come-off sounding like the price of this game was a direct slight or insult done to them personally.Opinions are like orifices,everybody has one,this last was mine.Now in the spirit of this thread feel free to attack me for being the manners police,thought police,body snatchers,hit squad,intolerant moderator or local IRS representative.

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Post #: 425
RE: Price? - 6/2/2010 1:15:42 AM   
Kabbers

 

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For me at least, I've accepted that this is a slightly more price-intensive hobby, and I'm willing to invest in the things I choose as depth-first hobbies. So on my side, the price is not the issue, so much as whether my own level of personal investment is able to match the entry price.

In my view, there's nothing worse, than overinvesting in something that I do not, cannot, or end up not, then matching with my own personal investment. Then I've short changed myself. So the price is an invitation to invest is my own view, and I'm happy now (if that's any use).

much happiness to you,
xKabbers

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Post #: 426
RE: Price? - 6/2/2010 1:38:00 AM   
Knavery


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The price for this game is out of this world, which would normally upset me if I was interested. However, I've changed my tune a bit since I started playing wargames. For some that really understand and love the engine, they may get several hundred hours of enjoyment out of it. This would include grognards, or folks very versed in wargaming in general.

However, for passerbys, the price is too much. I fall into that category. Having little to no experience with wargaming, and having a very difficult time getting into it for various reasons, I don't fit into the category of grognard. The game, and the price of the game, is not aimed at casual gamers. It's aimed at wargamers that will get a hundred bucks out of it and then some.

I actually appreciate the fact that the price is a deterent for me personally. Should I spend 50 or 100 dollars, it would probably just sit on a shelf anyway. Perhaps it's a blessing in disguise, but I could justify 50 bucks a lot quicker than 100.

I just hope they can make money from those gamers out there that love the series. It certainly has a beatiful engine.

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RE: Price? - 6/2/2010 1:52:09 AM   
LRRP

 

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I hope this is not the direction Matrix (who I have bought many many games from is going in the future) is this a result of the Slitherine merger? Also how come this is so much more than the previous versions of this series? Lets be honest spending $80 for a digital download is nuts. Also spending $90 for a physical version without a 8.5 x 11 fully colored manual in a hardbound edition would be equally as nuts. The fact is if you are asking us to pay such a large increase then the game along with printed materials better also increase on quality.

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Post #: 428
RE: Price? - 6/2/2010 2:13:16 AM   
jomni


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LRRP

I hope this is not the direction Matrix (who I have bought many many games from is going in the future) is this a result of the Slitherine merger? Also how come this is so much more than the previous versions of this series? Lets be honest spending $80 for a digital download is nuts. Also spending $90 for a physical version without a 8.5 x 11 fully colored manual in a hardbound edition would be equally as nuts. The fact is if you are asking us to pay such a large increase then the game along with printed materials better also increase on quality.


Don't think so. Slitherine games are still affordable.
With regards to quality, I'm pretty sure that there are improvements. I am just not sure as I don't have the game at the moment to compare. Waiting for the demo to know for sure.

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RE: Price? - 6/2/2010 5:13:15 AM   
**budd**


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Knavery

The price for this game is out of this world, which would normally upset me if I was interested. However, I've changed my tune a bit since I started playing wargames. For some that really understand and love the engine, they may get several hundred hours of enjoyment out of it. This would include grognards, or folks very versed in wargaming in general.

However, for passerbys, the price is too much. I fall into that category. Having little to no experience with wargaming, and having a very difficult time getting into it for various reasons, I don't fit into the category of grognard. The game, and the price of the game, is not aimed at casual gamers. It's aimed at wargamers that will get a hundred bucks out of it and then some.

I actually appreciate the fact that the price is a deterent for me personally. Should I spend 50 or 100 dollars, it would probably just sit on a shelf anyway. Perhaps it's a blessing in disguise, but I could justify 50 bucks a lot quicker than 100.

I just hope they can make money from those gamers out there that love the series. It certainly has a beatiful engine.




I do agree that the price was a bit of a shock, but after some thought on the subject i changed my tune and will be purchasing it if my machine can run it. I have been wargaming for years but am in no way a grognard, i just like playing. I think no matter what the price [except of course basement pricing] are niche market will never attract casual gamers, not to say we can't attract new players, but these games do require some time investment to learn how to get the most fun out of them, there's not much instant gratification in these games that at least i associate with casual gamers. Myself, I just am aiming not buy anymore shelf sitting games this year[bought 8 matrix games last year, 6 are on the shelf, untouched] so that's how i am justifying it plus i love the engine. I am wondering if you've played any of the series and if your going to try the demo? If you do the demo and it strikes a chord with you, will you feel differently about the price? For some people it just doens't hit a chord with especially the first time playing, not much you can do with those people, it just doesn't work for them. Hope you try the demo and it strikes a chord with you and you hop on board
budd

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Post #: 430
RE: Price? - 6/2/2010 5:17:35 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LRRP
I hope this is not the direction Matrix (who I have bought many many games from is going in the future) is this a result of the Slitherine merger? Also how come this is so much more than the previous versions of this series? Lets be honest spending $80 for a digital download is nuts. Also spending $90 for a physical version without a 8.5 x 11 fully colored manual in a hardbound edition would be equally as nuts. The fact is if you are asking us to pay such a large increase then the game along with printed materials better also increase on quality.


I'd like to encourage everyone who posts here to read the earlier parts of the thread as well, where we and Panther posted pretty extensive responses regarding these questions.

Regards,

- Erik


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Post #: 431
RE: Price? - 6/2/2010 7:38:32 AM   
TARG

 

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I wish Matrix and Panther Games well and I hope you sell lot's of copies as it looks to be a great game.

Sadly it is more than I am willing to pay for a game and will have to pass. $60.00 is my upper limit of value for any game and I will pass. If it is the way of things going into the future than I will find other interests to pass my time.

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RE: Price? - 6/2/2010 12:08:02 PM   
wodin


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It does make me upset seeing so many who would have bought passing it up. To say I'm worried about the sales and future development is an understatement. Especially when we were told that for the future of the series it had to sell well.

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Post #: 433
RE: Price? - 6/2/2010 12:23:39 PM   
daft

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

It does make me upset seeing so many who would have bought passing it up. To say I'm worried about the sales and future development is an understatement. Especially when we were told that for the future of the series it had to sell well.



Obviously, more sales are better, but if they can make more money from fewer customers I'd say that constitutes "selling well" in their eyes. If they wanted more volume in their sales, they would have lowered their price. I think they calculated with a slight drop-off in either existing buyers or first time buyers of the series, and hiked up the price with that taken into account. We'll see I guess, but for some reason I doubt that Dave will toss this engine completely aside even if the sales aren't as good as they had hoped.

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Post #: 434
RE: Price? - 6/2/2010 12:52:34 PM   
cmurphy625


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quote:

ORIGINAL: daft


quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

It does make me upset seeing so many who would have bought passing it up. To say I'm worried about the sales and future development is an understatement. Especially when we were told that for the future of the series it had to sell well.



Obviously, more sales are better, but if they can make more money from fewer customers I'd say that constitutes "selling well" in their eyes. If they wanted more volume in their sales, they would have lowered their price. I think they calculated with a slight drop-off in either existing buyers or first time buyers of the series, and hiked up the price with that taken into account. We'll see I guess, but for some reason I doubt that Dave will toss this engine completely aside even if the sales aren't as good as they had hoped.


With all the Great Reviews. .they are definitely grabbing more of the 'forum' holdouts... but still doesn't help them with the 'casual store visitors' i.e. non Forum readers..

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RE: Price? - 6/2/2010 5:14:59 PM   
redmarkus4


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quote:

but still doesn't help them with the 'casual store visitors' i.e. non Forum readers..


I would guess that non-Forum readers form the vast majority of store visitors.

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Post #: 436
RE: Price? - 6/2/2010 7:10:50 PM   
Capt Cliff


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The price of this game is way too much for a single campaign with 27 battles. $80 US for digital and $90 for hard copy!!!

Well I guess we'll see if it's worth the price but me I shall pass on it, and I am a Bulge fanatic!! Someone in Matrix needs to start doing cost trade analysis and buget modelling on these games. Even $75 for WitP was too much for me but come to think of it considering the depth and expanse of that game $75 might be ballback, high and inside but ballpark. Now way will I pay $90 for a Bulge game especially if it's like the Market Garden version.

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RE: Price? - 6/2/2010 7:22:47 PM   
wodin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: daft


quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

It does make me upset seeing so many who would have bought passing it up. To say I'm worried about the sales and future development is an understatement. Especially when we were told that for the future of the series it had to sell well.




Obviously, more sales are better, but if they can make more money from fewer customers I'd say that constitutes "selling well" in their eyes. If they wanted more volume in their sales, they would have lowered their price. I think they calculated with a slight drop-off in either existing buyers or first time buyers of the series, and hiked up the price with that taken into account. We'll see I guess, but for some reason I doubt that Dave will toss this engine completely aside even if the sales aren't as good as they had hoped.


Its not a case of throwing the engine aside but a case of if its financailly viable...and if the sales say it isn't then Dave will have to do more military work I expect...Panther Games is a Business first and foremost...not a hobbyist doing it for the love in his spare time.

If they loose just a 1/3rd of the sales due to the price then it was a bad call as the extra money just wasn't worth it....and being a niche game with a small market audience surely every sale counts...

< Message edited by wodin -- 6/2/2010 7:25:38 PM >


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RE: Price? - 6/2/2010 8:06:35 PM   
hondo1375


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt Cliff
Someone in Matrix needs to start doing cost trade analysis and buget modelling on these games.


We need to be fair to Matrix here, as we don't know they haven't done some price elasticity of demand modelling. I'm assuming that they believe the demand at this price point will bring in more aggregate gross margin for this game than it would at the COTA price point. It's just unfortunate for the people who want the game but won't stretch to the price point. If Matrix have got it wrong, I expect they'll have to discount it at some point (although that won't be an easy PR message to deliver to existing purchasers).

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RE: Price? - 6/2/2010 8:40:48 PM   
Arnir


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Ironically, when a new title comes out in a series that I don't have the latest and greatest of I tend to buy the older release in the series.  So for me, this release made me think about buying CotA until I saw that its price had gone up as well.  Maybe someday from NWS but I just can't rationalize paying more for an older game to support a new game that I can't see buying at its high price.

I do think that Matrix and Panther are doing what they feel is best and have solid reasons for what they are doing.  I might disagree with them, but I won't tell them how to play their game.  (all puns included.)

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RE: Price? - 6/2/2010 10:12:17 PM   
billyjj

 

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This will be the new trend... if this game is a success for them at 80 dollars you can expect to bend over and take it in the ass from now on. Anyone that pays 80 dollars for a game is a complete moron no matter how cool the game is, lets face it.. its just 1 more ww2 game nothing special. You will play it for a week and then move on to the next game.. Just wait until Bitter Glory Comes out you will probably have to shell out 120 dollars because its so great, yea right

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Post #: 441
RE: Price? - 6/2/2010 10:41:33 PM   
MajFrankBurns

 

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quote:

you can expect to bend over and take it in the ass from now on. Anyone that pays 80 dollars for a game is a complete moron


I wondered when someone was going to post something like this ^ lol

Now while I don't think anyone that pays $80 is a moron I do think they are contributing to raising the costs of games and gaming in general. If a publisher or developer or any of the mainstream see they can get $80 out of you as easy as $40 what do you think they are going to do? hrmmm?


I do price saving searches daily also. In fact I just found this little jewel of a sale at Newegg: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820227501
If you're in for some good quality ram upgrade now's the time to jump on this as memory prices are continuing to go up.

< Message edited by MajFrankBurns -- 6/2/2010 10:49:56 PM >

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RE: Price? - 6/3/2010 12:03:48 AM   
LRRP

 

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I would like to know why COTA has gone up in price? I have it and just wonder. Their is really no reason for it to have, unless someone is trying to offset the sticker shock of the new release versus the old release. Also if you have me pony up this much money for a pc game then their better be a 30 day return policy! Also their should be no substantial bugs or other major issues! Also the manual better be a well produced and printed in color for this kind of money. Also not one of those small little page type of manuals.

< Message edited by LRRP -- 6/3/2010 12:08:17 AM >

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Post #: 443
RE: Price? - 6/3/2010 12:31:00 AM   
captskillet


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Hey Billyjj, I paid 80$ for it and I damn sure dont consider myself a moron...........dammit some of these people need to get a friggin life!

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RE: Price? - 6/3/2010 1:14:54 AM   
wodin


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Yeah it's getting abit much now...get it abit much...ah forget it....

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RE: Price? - You get what you pay for!! - 6/3/2010 1:21:23 AM   
OConnor

 

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Just had to say a word of thanks to Arjuna and all the gang at Panther for this fantastic game! Guys, it is a work of ABSOLUTE GENIUS!! I bought it and let me say that it is worth TWICE THE PRICE!!! BftB hits a GRAND SLAM - it allows one to take command in a way that the earlier games only hinted at. I have bought all the earlier titles and can say right now, that as much as I loved them, they are now obsolete. In fact, I view the earlier purchases as the relative "overpayment" (albeit a worthy initial investment to get us to this day) for the earlier works now pale in comparison; basically unplayable until the folks at Panther can pull them into this engine. Finally, and truly for the first time, the interface commands and the ensuing reaction of the units on the map all makes sense! THANK YOU! and ALL THE BEST!

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Post #: 446
RE: Price? - 6/3/2010 2:00:28 AM   
gts2096


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wow....ive been lurking here for years....i own several games from matrix.....but i feel that witp AE should have been like an addon and cost half

of what it was...but i bought it...now regreting that decision.....as much as i like war-gaming this game is out of my price range..

Back to my buddies house for beer and Axis and Allies...sorry Matrix

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Post #: 447
RE: Price? - You get what you pay for!! - 6/3/2010 2:03:22 AM   
billyjj

 

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These game developers have everyone tricked into thinking all the money they make goes right back into making new games, and that they are barely staying in business... So in order to "support" the company they get fanboys to shell out 80 bucks for a game... this is not true especially with digital downloads. It is just too much money for a damn video game, I'm surprised to see so many people actually bought the game since war gamers are usually in an older in age and presumably wiser with money then some 16 year old that blows his life savings on a PS3. I guess I underestimated the stupidity here, matrix must have you guys right... hell why not make the game 119.99 or more they could probably squeeze some more out of you idiots.

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Post #: 448
RE: Price? - You get what you pay for!! - 6/3/2010 2:42:27 AM   
SuluSea


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Totally classless post, no need to toss insults and slander. You come off as a very bitter person. I bought the game from NWS, My house is paid off, I own two cars , put one kid through college and working on another now. Money is tight but I think I've earned the right to spend my money as I see fit. The level of camaraderie has certainly went downhill here in recent weeks I'm sad to say.

< Message edited by SuluSea -- 6/3/2010 2:44:30 AM >

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Post #: 449
RE: Price? - You get what you pay for!! - 6/3/2010 2:56:57 AM   
Agent S


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I wonder how many here own a PS3 or Xbox console?
My kids hit me for new release games, most of which hover over the $110 AUD price tag on a regular basis.
BftB will last much longer than many titles, that hit the pre-owned bin within weeks of release.

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