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Expanding the Civilian Logistics System - 5/25/2010 7:57:13 PM   
Shark7


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Tired of the Colony Spamming Race? Want a more realistic growth and expansion Model? Just want the game to be a bit more in depth and go at a more realistic pace?

I have a propsition for you!

Civilian Logistic System:

Key Points:

-Colony Development should be dependant on availability of supplies.
-New colonies are not able to supply the needs of the colonists.
-The industrial base of established colonies would need to make the supplies and ship them to new colonies.
-The civilian shipping and logistics component is already in game, this would just expand upon it.

Basics:

-Each colony can take raw resources and produce supplies in different categories.
-A certain level of development is required to produce each type. The is the abstract 'industrial base'.
-Any product that can not be supplied by the colony must be shipped by one that can.
-Availability of supplies will directly affect colony development.

The Supply Types:

-Basic Needs: This is the food stuffs and very basic constuction Materials (think 2x4's) needed to supply a colony. This is broken into the two mentioned...Foodstuffs and Building Materials.
-Enhanced Needs: Medical Supplies and water production. The growing colony can now produce its own 'synthetic' water from hydrogen and oxygen gas. it can also provide its own medical supplies.
-Advanced: Heavy contstruction Materials. This allows for the building of skyscrapers and large industrial type buildings.
-Luxury Materials: Simple, at this level a colony can provide everything it needs as well as the 'fun' stuff. Luxury Supplies is the category.

Development Levels:

-Level 1-20: The colony is unable to produce even basic needs for its own citizens. The colony is dependant upon the merchant fleet and other more developed colonies to provide these goods. Colony deliveries will be heavily weighted to Foodstuffs, Building Materials, Water, and Medical Supplies. At this level, Heavy Construction Materials and Luxury Supplies will not be delivered.
-Level 2 21-50: At this level, the colony is able to provide its own basic needs. It will still not be able to provide enough medical supplies or fresh water (if the planet is arid) for its citizens. This planet will start to receive Heavy Constuction Materials and Luxury supplies, but deliveries will still be heavily weighted to Medical Supplies and Water.
-Level 3 51-75: This is a developing colony that is able to supply all of its citizens living needs, and can now start concentrating on constuction. Heavy Constuction Materials will be in high demand. Luxury goods will also be in high demand.
-Level 4 75-99: At this level the colony is fully industrialized and is able to supply its citizens with all their basic needs. Luxury goods will be in extremely high demand and require inbound shipments.
-Level 5 100+: The colony is fully developed and can supply all goods. This colony will also prodcue excess of ALL supplies that can be sent to other developing colonies.

Also, planets that are not condusive to the species colonizing it (example: Volcanic, Ice or Desert for Humans) will take longer to develop and require higher levels of supply deliveries.

To Summarize: At level 1, the colony is completely dependant on supply deliveries, at level 2 it provides food and basic building materials, at level 3 it can provide for the basic and medical needs of all colonists and start producing excess, at level 4 the colony is now providing all the constuction materials needed, and at level 5 the colony produces everything you need.

New Resource Categories:

-Grains
-Meats
-Water
-Vegetables
-Flora
-Iron
-Timber
-Jewels
-Rubber
-Rare Edibles
-Titanium

These are converted to the various supply categories at colonies with the proper development level.

-Foodstuffs: Grains, Meats, Vegatables, and Flora convert into foodstuffs at a rate of 2:1 (that is 2 raw resource becomes 1 foodstuff)
-Basic Construction Materials: Timber, Rubber, Iron, Steel, Copper, Aluminum, Carbon, and silicates convert to basic building materials at a rate of 2:1.
-Water: Continental, Marshy Swamp and Ocean planets have this in abundance. Additionally, Hydrogen and Oxygen can be combined to produce water at a 1:1 ratio (1 each of Oxygen and hydrogen = 1 water)
-Medical Supplies: Flora and rare edibles convert to medical supplies at a rate of 3:1.
-Heavy Constuction Materials: Rubber, Iron, Steel, Copper, Aluminum, Carbon, Iridium, Titanium and silicates convert to Heavy Constuction Materials at a rate of 4:1.
-Luxury Goods: Rare edibles, Jewels, Gold, Silver, Timber, and Flora convert to luxury goods at a rate of 5:1.

All of this would be in addition to the existing Logistics model in the game.

The idea behind this is to slow colony spamming. You could still spam out the the ships, but the colonies would revolt if you could not provide adequate supplies to them, effectively spinning off and forming their own little factions or joining empires that could provide the supplies. With a system such as this in place, it would add more depth to the civilian logistics side, force actual thought into colonial expansion, and generally slow the pace of the game. This could also be made optional in the game setup process. (slidebar with Logistics to either Basic or Advanced) for those that prefer a faster paced game.


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RE: Expanding the Civilian Logistics System - 5/25/2010 11:24:06 PM   
Simulation01


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I like this idea.  Something really should be done about empires that found colony's on the other side of the galaxy.  That is completely insane.  Expansion should be planned and done in a way that is defensible.  

Also, an empire should be able to research the ability to colonize every type of planet instead of having to conquer the race that has the ability to colonize a different type. I mean...we should at least be able to build dome colony's and such.

< Message edited by Simulation01 -- 5/25/2010 11:28:30 PM >

(in reply to Shark7)
Post #: 2
RE: Expanding the Civilian Logistics System - 5/26/2010 12:58:58 AM   
thiosk


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There is a fine line between adding resources that don't functionally add gameplay, and adding important game features that expand on gameplay without overdoing micromanagement.

I think you have too many resources added here-- though you are right, no human society will expand to the stars without grain, meat, etc.

I think what would be nice, though, is some sort of modeling of agriculture... do you want to build an "ag" world or a "megacity" world. City worlds need ag worlds to support them, would be my concept.

I do NOT like a resource model for ag worlds, because then its just a matter of plopping a colony ship on a grain world and hoping for positive dice rolls that put grain near you. And why would a meat eating race garner any benefit from grain? Same with the cyborg species. All races-- except cyborgs-- would want to grow and ship food between planets, however, especially when we're talking about populations greater than 15 billion, it becomes easier to ship food in than to keep growing it on that planet.

Even without agriculture worlds, I have long advocated a look at strategic resources-- there is so little consumption of resources in this game. If you have one mine that makes one resource, you can do everything you need to do with it. No point in maximizing mining on various planets of the galaxy... you'll have plenty of minerals.

I would like to see populations require huge quantities of materials to grow and be supported-- the amount of polymer just for the yearly food packaging requirements for 200 billion imperial citizens would be astounding, and would make strategic resources something worth fighting over. As is now, about the only resource you fight over are those ultrarare luxury goods. My citizens can live in poverty, as far as I care, as long as they keep producing rifles, regiments, and fusion warheads. As a despot, who needs luxury goods? You want guns and ammo, steel and nekros stone!!!



< Message edited by thiosk -- 5/26/2010 1:02:04 AM >

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RE: Expanding the Civilian Logistics System - 5/26/2010 1:51:54 AM   
Shark7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thiosk

There is a fine line between adding resources that don't functionally add gameplay, and adding important game features that expand on gameplay without overdoing micromanagement.

I think you have too many resources added here-- though you are right, no human society will expand to the stars without grain, meat, etc.

I think what would be nice, though, is some sort of modeling of agriculture... do you want to build an "ag" world or a "megacity" world. City worlds need ag worlds to support them, would be my concept.

I do NOT like a resource model for ag worlds, because then its just a matter of plopping a colony ship on a grain world and hoping for positive dice rolls that put grain near you. And why would a meat eating race garner any benefit from grain? Same with the cyborg species. All races-- except cyborgs-- would want to grow and ship food between planets, however, especially when we're talking about populations greater than 15 billion, it becomes easier to ship food in than to keep growing it on that planet.

Even without agriculture worlds, I have long advocated a look at strategic resources-- there is so little consumption of resources in this game. If you have one mine that makes one resource, you can do everything you need to do with it. No point in maximizing mining on various planets of the galaxy... you'll have plenty of minerals.

I would like to see populations require huge quantities of materials to grow and be supported-- the amount of polymer just for the yearly food packaging requirements for 200 billion imperial citizens would be astounding, and would make strategic resources something worth fighting over. As is now, about the only resource you fight over are those ultrarare luxury goods. My citizens can live in poverty, as far as I care, as long as they keep producing rifles, regiments, and fusion warheads. As a despot, who needs luxury goods? You want guns and ammo, steel and nekros stone!!!




Well, I'm wondering if you are mis-reading the idea on foodstuffs. You don't have to have one of each, each type can convert into food, depending on the race. The question is would a meat eater ever need grain? Probably not, though they could develop it. However, a meat eater could easily sell grain to the plant eater that desperately needs it...at an inflated price.

Even more in depth, and a reason for getting those free trade treaties.

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RE: Expanding the Civilian Logistics System - 5/26/2010 2:14:53 AM   
Keston


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  • Resource availability is something that could be developed more to make you think about where to settle - the closer to resources, or especially to non-hostile sources of supply, the easier it will be (and some worlds will just be cost-ineffective for extensive settlement and not get far). Maybe adding one generic trade good "supplies" generated to some degree on all worlds and settlements is enough to model this basic issue, while supplies of the listed goods play other roles.
  • To avoid frustration, what is going on needs to have transparence with some color/shape coded icons and easy overview that identifies worlds with problems or that are doing well. How promising a world can be should be information available when looking at the click-button for colonizing, maybe with inset map showing area and supplies. Maybe some worlds of strategic importance will require imperial subsidies that can be approved, or tax exemption.
  • The initial suggestion imposes a mercantilist empire concept for all species. It might fit some species and appropriate forms of government, but with the transportation requirements it is more practical to try to make colonies self-sufficient as much as economically practical, focusing commerce on high value/weight goods. Government types and trade agreements or embargoes should make a real difference.
  • Where space is not safe, convoys might be preferred for mutual defence against piracy or monsters. Convoys are naturally slower and less efficient, and if needed affect the economy.

(in reply to Shark7)
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RE: Expanding the Civilian Logistics System - 5/26/2010 3:44:22 AM   
thiosk


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Perhaps a simple slider for continental worlds.

Agricultural --- Balanced --- Urban

On the left, there would be a net "food" output.

On the right, all arable land will be covered in manufacturing and cities.

Presently, everything is in the middle.

Food would then have to be shipped from ag to urban worlds or from anywhere with a surplus, and could then be sold or bought via free trade agreements for profit.

I understand the concept of having highly developed, populated worlds be the breadbaskets of the galaxy, i just don't really see how that works-- new york city is only a consumer of food, while kansas mostly produces the food that new york city eats. So it would really be the small colonies that are growing all the food, rather than the supercolonies.

Still, as interesting as the concept is, i think simply requiring strategic resources as they currently exist to flow into colonies would be a huge step towards modeling this kind of thing. Then one would only have to use a mod and rename some strategic resource found on continental worlds to food, and there you've modeled agriculture.
I still maintain that simply adding a new resource class or more resources for growth doesn't deepen the game, just makes more hoops to jump through.

In principle though, i totally want food worlds and manufacturing worlds. It would be so fun to bomb the food worlds and starve the enemy cities, decreasing the readiness of the ground troops and smoothing my invasion.

< Message edited by thiosk -- 5/26/2010 3:49:50 AM >

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RE: Expanding the Civilian Logistics System - 5/26/2010 6:02:34 AM   
Shark7


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Actually, only the highly developed worlds have the industrial base to manufacture the supplies, the raw materials have to come from the agrarian/mining worlds.

So really there are two phases to this:

Phase 1: Raw materials get shipped to the production center.
Phase 2: Manufactured goods return to the raw materials planet.


Also take our good Earth into consideration. We are completely self sufficient. While we do have complete consumers such as New York City, other places on the planet (where I live for example) are covered in wheat fields. Being fully developed does not make a planet into Coruscent or Nar Shadda that is completely covered in a multi-level city with no farming possible.

Again, this would be limited to planets that are native to a species without terraforming. Planets that are not native can still make goods, but the raw materials will have to be shipped in from other sources.

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RE: Expanding the Civilian Logistics System - 5/26/2010 6:48:24 AM   
Blind Sniper


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I like the idea to slow the colonies expansion, I don't know if your solution is doable but is good.

BTW: No doubt that you are a WitP player

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RE: Expanding the Civilian Logistics System - 5/26/2010 9:43:05 AM   
Keston


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In this game, the economics of shipping bulk foods between star systems does not make sense as there are fuel costs based on distance.  Some generic commodity gathering and exchange at shorter ranges can make sense, but needs to be uncomplicated enough that the private economy AI knows what to do. 

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RE: Expanding the Civilian Logistics System - 5/26/2010 10:51:40 AM   
Bartje

 

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I like this system concept very very much!


Fuel is relatively cheap in my experience and bulk shipping therefor makes alot of sense. Far more than non bulk shipping which would be far more fuel intensive. (Shipping less per run costs just as much fuel so you are better of shipping bulk)

Convoys would add alot I agree; maybe they would even be dangerous to monsters and raiders then

Sanctions would also be alot more pressing & effective because they could lead to starvation!


Overall I think this would be a somewhat minor alteration to the private economy AI because it already knows quite well what to ship etc.. It would just need to prioritize basic needs before the more advanced and industrial ones.

What would be a more intensive change is the ability to define agricultural as opposed to non agricultural worlds. This would require a good AI update.


With this system in place we would also see more reliance on inter-galactic trade because foodstuffs and industrial things can be exported and imported.

This would save fuel and perhaps costs allowing for more economic strategy.

It would also introduce a more plausible galactic setting where some empires could be dependent on others for their imports of certain (raw / basic) resources as well as luxuries. (USA / Europe / Japan are dependent on Oil for example) 


This would be an awesome addition that would make the game faaaaaaar more plausible as well as strategic. Assuming the AI is brought up to speed!

< Message edited by Bartje -- 5/26/2010 10:52:31 AM >

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RE: Expanding the Civilian Logistics System - 5/26/2010 5:53:34 PM   
Dadekster

 

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Cyborg races may not need meat and grain, but they still need things like lubricant and spare parts. They'd just be tied to a different resource like maybe steel. As far as meat eates, veggies, omnivore thing it doesn't matter what your race does. Everything is still dependant on grain or whatever science fiction equivelent. The things the meat eating races need still need to be raised on something like grain so that should be the bottom tier most important commodity. So you would just need grain and steel. You could also put in medical supplies as something equivlent as well. So now you have three most have's to allow the colony to grow.

Other things such as timber, iron, basics etc would be needed to build up your infrastructure to allow the colony to be more self sufficent. Once your colony becomes more self sufficent as stated by Shark7 they could start producing their own things and after enough time goes by they would be able to start making things such as plastics and refined materials. Now the neat thing is that at a certain point a fully devoloped colony will need frontier worlds to supply it with things such as timber etc. How much of this stuff would be detailed is all on the level of abstraction one is willing to do I guess. I myself like to see this stuff as it allows the player to know where things are at. As long as the AI can handle it (transportation of goods) then people who don't want to be bothered with it don't need to. Then can just look at the planet window and see Level 34 for the planet and that's that. At the moment I can look at my spaceport and see it has:

2345 - resource xyz
124 - resource xba
4561 - luxury 3t1
23 - resource qvpe

and I have no idea why those numbers are what they are. Sure some of it is being used for production, but heaven help me if I add any of it up compared to what is in my factory. Nothing really adds up or is explained so I just shake my head and do something else in the game.

In other words I would love to see resources done in a way that matters. Right now the system in place makes me care less about anything other than spice and fruit as there is just not much value to it. I feel completely detached from the resource model and that's not a good thing. Resources are what make our world work and is what our whole species revolves around. It needs some TLC in DW imo.

< Message edited by Dadekster -- 5/26/2010 5:56:40 PM >

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RE: Expanding the Civilian Logistics System - 5/26/2010 6:06:13 PM   
Simulation01


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Given the fact that there are spaceships flitting about the galaxy shouldn't Uranium or Anti-matter be a big resource need?

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RE: Expanding the Civilian Logistics System - 5/26/2010 7:39:36 PM   
Yarasala

 

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I'm against detailling more and more specific resources, that wouldn't bring any new strategic elements into the game imo (perhaps apart from food, but to simulate that adequately a lot of work would be needed).

But I'm all for making more of the resources already in the game. I too experienced no special difficulties from lack of certain resources. A game concept you never need to care about is unnecessary, so change the resource handling to make it important again.

First step could be to increase resource costs for certain components *or* reduce the abundance of certain resources. I would prefer the latter, then I would again *enjoy* finding planets with those resources. As it is now, one planets looks like every other and the resources on it don't really matter. I miss the sense of wonder I had when finding a Gaia planet in MoO2 or a quality 20 planet or one with a 7 x research tile in GalCiv2. I want something similar in DW, either by making some resources scarce and / or decreasing ruin abundance and make their bonuses more varied and / or ...

Second step could be to introduce new resources that are not raw materials but semi-finished products that have to be generated in specialized factories (which need new components and a new branch in the tech tree) out of raw materials (e. g. 10 steel + 3 gold + 1 nekros stone = <insert fancy name here> alloy). Would be more work than step one but still less than introducing a food system i think.

(in reply to Simulation01)
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RE: Expanding the Civilian Logistics System - 5/26/2010 8:55:40 PM   
taltamir

 

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quote:

-Grains
-Meats
-Water
-Vegetables
-Flora
-Iron
-Timber
-Jewels
-Rubber
-Rare Edibles
-Titanium

Half of these are basically "food and water"... those are abstracted at the moment... it would be quite a lot of work to add them and balance them... I can see why you would want it. I see no reason to separate then into a ton of different types (meat, grain, flora, fauna, etc)... to produce food you MUST be able to produce large amounts of plant matter, and then you can easily use that to produce meat, etc. So all you really need is enough water, sunlight, and some gasses (oxygen, nitrogen, etc). for large scale production you obviously want a planet that provides all of the conditions (ideal temp, ideal light amounts, ideal water amounts, etc etc)

Iron already exist, in the form of steel... nothing useful is made out of iron anymore, much less the future. Steel producing planets are planets rich in iron, who produce steel from said iron.

Jewels exist already, several of the luxury goods are jewels.

Rubber exists already, look up the word polymer on wikipedia

Rare edibles exist already, its called loros fruit, zetebia fluid, and korbebian spice.

Titanium - thats pretty much the only new unique resource you suggested (err, I think at least), its doable to add it... so far things are limited to either requiring steel, or carbon fiber and polymers if you need something lightweight. titanium is in the middle, stronger and more light weight then steel, more expensive then steel but cheaper than carbon fiber.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yarasala

I'm against detailling more and more specific resources, that wouldn't bring any new strategic elements into the game imo (perhaps apart from food, but to simulate that adequately a lot of work would be needed).

But I'm all for making more of the resources already in the game. I too experienced no special difficulties from lack of certain resources. A game concept you never need to care about is unnecessary, so change the resource handling to make it important again.

First step could be to increase resource costs for certain components *or* reduce the abundance of certain resources. I would prefer the latter, then I would again *enjoy* finding planets with those resources. As it is now, one planets looks like every other and the resources on it don't really matter. I miss the sense of wonder I had when finding a Gaia planet in MoO2 or a quality 20 planet or one with a 7 x research tile in GalCiv2. I want something similar in DW, either by making some resources scarce and / or decreasing ruin abundance and make their bonuses more varied and / or ...

Second step could be to introduce new resources that are not raw materials but semi-finished products that have to be generated in specialized factories (which need new components and a new branch in the tech tree) out of raw materials (e. g. 10 steel + 3 gold + 1 nekros stone = <insert fancy name here> alloy). Would be more work than step one but still less than introducing a food system i think.


the safest method would be to make the chances of each resource to appear on a plaent 1/A what it is now, but increase the production by a factor of A, with A being probably 5 to 10 (except for the three 3 super resources, korbebian spice, loros fruit, and zentabia fluid which remain the same)? overall the same amount produced AND consumed in the entire galaxy, but they are concentrated to individual planets, making said planets valuable and most planets are consumers only. Thus there are actual "strategic planets" instead of "how many ocean planets I own" its "do I own one of the few ocean planets that exports dilithium crystals?)

This would be interesting... it would be a drastic change though... not sure how well it would work. Not sure if I am for it or against (I have mixed feelings about the idea)..

this would certainly make mining bases less useless. (in fact, they would become very useful!)

< Message edited by taltamir -- 5/26/2010 9:01:55 PM >


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Post #: 14
RE: Expanding the Civilian Logistics System - 5/26/2010 9:20:55 PM   
Shark7


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Problem is that there are so many resources that I couldn't be sure what was in there.

And since most of these exist already, that make it that much easier to do, since you just need to code in the factory system that converts them into the finished products.

Ideally, all planets could produce plant matter, though on some types IE Volcanic and Ice, the production would be significantly less than Continental, Marshy Swamp and Oceanic (Kelp is plant matter after all).

The system could easily be refined, I didn't really expect to get it 100% right on my initial idea...I've just thrown it out here for thought and discussion. And we are able to discuss it...quite civilly I might add. Even those against it have come up with compelling reasons and ideas of there own.

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RE: Expanding the Civilian Logistics System - 5/26/2010 9:22:11 PM   
jscott991


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This would make for a much better game.

Unfortunately, it would make for a different game. I doubt DW can support changes of this magnitude.

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RE: Expanding the Civilian Logistics System - 5/26/2010 9:32:52 PM   
taltamir

 

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The system you suggest means having less products overall, and more unnecessary calculations (why mine iron and then convert it to steel at 1:4 ratio, when you can just say that the planet "produced steel" and be done with it?)
the act of refining it from one thing to another is abstracted and it is perfectly fine that way.

the only REAL change you make is the adding of food and water as a resource. it is possible for DW to implement, I am just not sure that it should. (the titanium thing isn't a "real change" because it just adds one more strategic resource to a list of dozens)

Also, converting all the different strategic resources in generic "industrial resources" would be a DOWNGRADE from the current system where individual components require SPECIFIC resources each, and thus you don't use X RUs, you actually dilithium crystal and polymers and carbon fiber and steel and gold and so on and so forth... I don't want to have a "factory" convert all of them to a generic resource which is then used to build ships.
that would be similar to an abstraction in most games where you have basically 2-3 resources only... seems like your system will end up with the space empires by malfador route... you have organics, minerals, and radioactives basically.

< Message edited by taltamir -- 5/26/2010 9:36:01 PM >


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RE: Expanding the Civilian Logistics System - 5/26/2010 9:53:28 PM   
Shark7


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Actually I'm wanting two things, granted new resources to track, but to have the development level of the colonies mean something, and actually take those resources and convert them into something else you need. It may be adding a layer of complexity, and as I pointed out earlier, it could be made an advanced option, rather than base code.

If it were perfect, it would have factories producing components that then must be shipped to planets and shipyards (IE work exactly like a real manufacturing economy). Abstraction would not be a part of it...but that is probably a bit too complex for most people to enjoy (I do realize that).

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RE: Expanding the Civilian Logistics System - 5/26/2010 10:17:40 PM   
thiosk


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What I'm really praying for is that when "modding" is added, it is powerful enough for us to do stuff like this, test it out, play around, see what works to turn the 4x game into THE 4x game.

My 4x dream is different from yours, and a little modifiability goes a long way.

Edit: ALSO: on "Strategic Planets"

DW suffers from one of the same problems that most 4x games suffer from: Generic Worlds.
Every colony, once it reaches the proper stage of population and development, is nondistinct.
Even in manufacturing, every colony ends up about the same.

"Manufacturing worlds" vs "Agricultural worlds" vs "Administrative worlds" vs "Pleasure Worlds" vs "Population Worlds" would be an interesting expansion to to the "living galaxy" concept. Also,

DYSON SPHERES AND RINGWORLDS OMG.

< Message edited by thiosk -- 5/26/2010 11:56:43 PM >

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Post #: 19
RE: Expanding the Civilian Logistics System - 5/26/2010 10:36:00 PM   
Yarasala

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir
the safest method would be to make the chances of each resource to appear on a plaent 1/A what it is now, but increase the production by a factor of A, with A being probably 5 to 10 (except for the three 3 super resources, korbebian spice, loros fruit, and zentabia fluid which remain the same)? overall the same amount produced AND consumed in the entire galaxy, but they are concentrated to individual planets, making said planets valuable and most planets are consumers only. Thus there are actual "strategic planets" instead of "how many ocean planets I own" its "do I own one of the few ocean planets that exports dilithium crystals?)

This would be interesting... it would be a drastic change though... not sure how well it would work. Not sure if I am for it or against (I have mixed feelings about the idea)..

this would certainly make mining bases less useless. (in fact, they would become very useful!)

That's quite good an idea and along the lines of my first step. And to mitigate any unpredictable game changes coming from that: make your "A" a moddable variable

(in reply to taltamir)
Post #: 20
RE: Expanding the Civilian Logistics System - 5/27/2010 12:58:10 AM   
Keston


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quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

Half of these are basically "food and water"... those are abstracted at the moment... it would be quite a lot of work to add them and balance them... I can see why you would want it. I see no reason to separate then into a ton of different types (meat, grain, flora, fauna, etc)... to produce food you MUST be able to produce large amounts of plant matter, and then you can easily use that to produce meat, etc. So all you really need is enough water, sunlight, and some gasses (oxygen, nitrogen, etc). for large scale production you obviously want a planet that provides all of the conditions (ideal temp, ideal light amounts, ideal water amounts, etc etc)


Tied together with the issue of energy - energy to create food or create water and energy to transport it - and the argument is almost all non-luxury food and water production and consumption in the DW universe (with linear energy consumption to distance) occurs on-planet, or at least in-system, though costs will vary and there will be minerals, tools, seeds, etc. which are high value and will be transported.

(in reply to taltamir)
Post #: 21
RE: Expanding the Civilian Logistics System - 5/27/2010 5:37:25 AM   
Dadekster

 

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I like the idea of asbtracting a lot of things in this game, but at some point so much is abstracted I wonder what I am playing in the game, especially with the lack of feedback in some of the game aspects. Not sure that makes sense? But I think this is why many people post the suggestions they do. They would like more interaction in some of the game play parts such as the economy, diplomacy, espionage, ship design (which has been improved already) etc. That's my take on it at least.

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Post #: 22
RE: Expanding the Civilian Logistics System - 5/27/2010 7:57:36 AM   
Bartje

 

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Perhaps abstraction is fine as long as we are given a way to influence the abstraction formula?

That way it feels less abstract.


If the formula tracks steel production for example can be influenced on a system that simulates refinement and other factors then it will feel less abstract and far more plausible.

This way you would also have less to add and far less coding work on the AI.


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Post #: 23
RE: Expanding the Civilian Logistics System - 5/27/2010 10:20:38 AM   
Keston


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I agree feedback is important. We like to know that the choices we make matter, and the result. In the resource area - is a resource in shortage? How do we know? We must think to check and sort the resources table - our advisors want to start wars but don't tell us about resource problems, causes and solutions, that we can set up a mine, or capture an enemy world to fix it.

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Post #: 24
RE: Expanding the Civilian Logistics System - 5/27/2010 2:38:18 PM   
Shark7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Keston

I agree feedback is important. We like to know that the choices we make matter, and the result. In the resource area - is a resource in shortage? How do we know? We must think to check and sort the resources table - our advisors want to start wars but don't tell us about resource problems, causes and solutions, that we can set up a mine, or capture an enemy world to fix it.


Would be nice if we got an advisory pop-up or message similar to: 'Ship concstuction is halted or being slowed by a shortage of steel.'

Now I know to queue up some construction ships to build mining stations at steel.

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Post #: 25
RE: Expanding the Civilian Logistics System - 5/27/2010 4:00:56 PM   
Bartje

 

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Exactly! Right now the game seems to assume you're like the AI; omnipotent in matters of state


Yes Minister...


I loved that show!

< Message edited by Bartje -- 5/27/2010 4:01:12 PM >

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Post #: 26
RE: Expanding the Civilian Logistics System - 5/27/2010 5:42:43 PM   
taltamir

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

quote:

ORIGINAL: Keston

I agree feedback is important. We like to know that the choices we make matter, and the result. In the resource area - is a resource in shortage? How do we know? We must think to check and sort the resources table - our advisors want to start wars but don't tell us about resource problems, causes and solutions, that we can set up a mine, or capture an enemy world to fix it.


Would be nice if we got an advisory pop-up or message similar to: 'Ship concstuction is halted or being slowed by a shortage of steel.'

Now I know to queue up some construction ships to build mining stations at steel.


That is a very good idea and I approve!
I would very much like to see a notice "ship production delayed due to <resource> shortages"
in fact, I think this should be added ASAP and BEFORE any other change it made, so would could play some games with it in place to get a better feel of how things are at the moment.

< Message edited by taltamir -- 5/27/2010 5:43:36 PM >


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