What's up in the WBTS world?

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [American Civil War] >> Gary Grigsby's War Between the States >> What's up in the WBTS world?

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What's up in the WBTS world? - 5/13/2010 9:45:58 PM

Joel Billings

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It appears not much. I've noticed this forum has been very quiet for a while. I know some new customers are buying the game every month so there are some people out there playing the game. WBTS was never a game that generated AAR's or a lot of discussion. Possibly because it's a strategic level game that plays fairly quickly and doesn't seem to have the immense detail that makes some AAR's interesting. Maybe because not many play PBEM. I'm sure there would be people interested if someone were to post an AAR. So if you've ever thought about writing an AAR, this game is calling out for someone to write one. Who knows, it might get some more discussion going about the game. With all the ACW games that came out a few years ago, it's a shame that this game got lost in the shuffle. Gary and I think it's one of the best games he's ever done, and it's the only game he's done pre-20th century. Yes we're biased, but I've worked on plenty of games and several ACW games and also think it's up there with some of his best work.

A note about patches. Some people expect that a game should be patched every few months, with new features and rule changes to continue to change the game over time. Without the patching, the game is thought to be "dead". Well, maybe so. But we think the game as it exists is very enjoyable and doesn't need additional patches. Yes, no doubt there are a few quirks that exist, but changing the game now stands as much a chance of making it worse as it does making it better (both in terms of bugs and also gameplay and balance). So we've decided to let it be and move on. Once that decision was pretty much made last year, it becomes a self-reinforcing as Gary no longer can remember the code well enough to make any changes safely and economically. So consider WBTS to be what it's going to be. Again, we think that's for the best.

So, anyone still playing this game?

< Message edited by Joel Billings -- 5/13/2010 9:47:10 PM >

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RE: What's up in the WBTS world? - 5/14/2010 12:14:52 AM

martok

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I like what I've seen so far, but honestly, I'm still in the early stages of learning the game. I've played the tutorials and run through a few turns of the regular campaign (as the Union -- yes I'm a wuss

), but I've not really gotten "into" it yet. My situation isn't helped by my currently having too many games and not nearly enough time to play them....

Still, I'm interested in the time period -- if not the battles themselves (which is one of the reasons WBTS appeals to me) -- and eventually I'll get around to playing it on a more serious/consistent basis. With the possible exception of AGEOD'S ACW, this is the only Civil War title (for the PC) that interests me, and I do look forward to exploring it more!

< Message edited by martok -- 5/14/2010 5:50:44 AM >

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RE: What's up in the WBTS world? - 5/14/2010 2:32:35 AM

oldspec4

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I bought the game at release and still play when I need my civil war fix. IMHO, I consider it to be the best of the ACW strategic level games.

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RE: What's up in the WBTS world? - 5/14/2010 3:11:24 AM

cmurphy625

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Tried it.. couldn't get into it.. favor AGOED and FOF over this.. maybe someday I'll try it again..

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RE: What's up in the WBTS world? - 5/14/2010 3:29:32 AM

Ralph Harper

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Talk about timing; I purchased the game several months ago and over the last few days have decided to dig in and give it a go. I started video 1 today but scrapped it for tutorial one. I think it will take awhile to break in and understand the game.
I may try to post a few newbie comments and would love to get a fellow rookie to pbem (I have a partner that encouraged me to get the game to pbem but would like to learn with a fellow newbie instead of getting creamed right off the bat).

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RE: What's up in the WBTS world? - 5/15/2010 3:55:09 PM

hgilmer3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cmurphy625

Tried it.. couldn't get into it.. favor AGOED and FOF over this.. maybe someday I'll try it again..

I agree with cmurphy. I have FoF, Aegod's, and GGWBTS. I like the way battles are presented but I feel constrained at times. I have never been thrilled (I've never complained because why would you complain? You either like it or you don't) with the way emancipation works. I also have never liked the way I would be really struggling at the end of the game with sizes of armies/needing garrisons.

So, I put it aside.

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RE: What's up in the WBTS world? - 5/15/2010 4:14:18 PM

Def Zep

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Hi Joel,

I bought WBTS upon first release, and enjoyed learning the rules and playing the first few turns. The Tutorials were very well done. It is still installed on my HD.

I own all 3 of the strategic Civil War games published by Matrix, and I would summarize them as follows:

1. WC's "Fields of Fire": The American Civil War by way of Harry Turtledove. The tactical battles are great fun. The R&D/production system lapses into science-fiction/fantasy outcomes towards the end.

2. AGEOD's ACW: A "Hot Mess". Like a former model I used to know, incredibly beautiful, and incredibly high-maintenance. Very impressive, and gorgeous to look at, but requiring such an attention to detail almost all strategic perspective is lost.

3. GG's WBTS: A good balance of military and industrial concerns. Focus stays strictly on the strategic conduct of the war.

The initial AAR's presented here (when the game was in development) are what drew me to consider purchasing the game. I hope further ones are forthcoming from those still actively playing it, as they are an excellent way to learn how to play it.

I believe WBTS suffered somwhat in relative popularity (vs. the other 2 titles) due to:

1. The rather occlusive importance (and property) of supplies.
The depot rules affecting initiative changed noticeably throughout the successive patches. Combined with the need to play the game a fair number of times to acquire a true appreciation for the importance of supply to initiative, and having this "masked" behind the inter-related factors of Army & Leader command ratings, made the game daunting to comprehend for a new player.

2. The failure of the tutorials to keep pace with the changes made in successive patches.
This made it very difficult for beginning players to orient themselves successfully to the design. Progressing through the tutorials gave them not only a huge amount of information to process (some of the tutorials introduced too many new concepts at once; they needed to be broken up), but some of the information proved to be completely wrong (e.g., the advice to Southern players re:not needing depots as much as the North).

3. The imbalance attendant to historical hindsight.
The Union ability to immediately pursue an off-coast blockade/garrison strategy, and the Confederacy's learning to building multiple factories for domestic supply production straight off the bat, both hurt the "balance" of the game.
Also, the limitation of Confederate "heavy production" to certain regions, and the ability of an experienced Union player to go through the map (database) region-by-region and "cherry pick" the necessary Confederate regions off, hurts it as well.

I have enjoyed WBTS, but not played it as much as some of my other purchases from Matrix, or Gary's other titles. It was released at about the same time as SSG's excellent update of their DBoWWII system (Kharkov: Disaster on the Donets), and that captured more of my attention. I do look forward very much to Gary's next game.

< Message edited by Def Zep -- 5/15/2010 4:15:52 PM >

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RE: What's up in the WBTS world? - 5/15/2010 8:55:13 PM

Joel Billings

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Def Zep, excellent analysis. Makes me realize even more the cost of constant patching of games. Usually leads to increased realism for those very much into the game, but since manuals and tutorials seldom if ever keep up, as stated it makes it increasingly difficult for the new player to understand and appreciate the game.

The game is definitely an acquired taste.

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RE: What's up in the WBTS world? - 5/17/2010 2:08:06 AM

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I'm alternating games of WBTS and COGEE (played with simple economy and quick battles). I think WBTS is a great game. Personally, it is right at the level I enjoy, though like any game I know it is not for everyone.

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RE: What's up in the WBTS world? - 5/17/2010 9:40:43 PM

Pford

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I agree, WBTS is a brilliantly conceived and accessible game, one that inspired me to do a few PBEMs, something that's rare for me. A shame it appears to be withering on the vine.

One aspect that I think would improve it would be expanding the setting to include the initial months of the conflict after Sumter. I understand the reasons for jumping in on the eve of Bull Run, but including the early maneuvering might add a more organic, comprehensive feel to the experience.

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RE: What's up in the WBTS world? - 5/18/2010 4:11:08 AM

Bison36

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I'm working my way through the manual and then I'll get into the gameplay.

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RE: What's up in the WBTS world? - 5/18/2010 6:49:24 PM

Capt Cliff

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I have one PBEM going, but my opponent has been traveling alot, so not many moves have transpired. Also pushing another partner into playing, my Combat Mission opponent, but he's been dragging his feet. Afraid I'll open a can of Woopass on him!!!

Aaah Ralph?

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RE: What's up in the WBTS world? - 5/21/2010 2:23:56 AM

gijas

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Hey guys, Im new to this forum but not Matrix. I have bought several games here and recently titles such as DW and Armada for the love of space empire 4X games.

Anyway, Ive been on the fence with this game since its release. I love the era but not sure I would like this game. Im familar with other games by Gary like WAW which I enjoyed so how does this game compair? Are the battles similar to WAW or entirely different? Read about the patches but is the modding com still alive? THANKS.

< Message edited by gijas -- 5/21/2010 2:26:44 AM >

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RE: What's up in the WBTS world? - 5/21/2010 3:51:58 AM

Erik Rutins

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IMHO this is one of Gary's and (2by3's) best games ever, well worth jumping in and giving it a try, you will not regret it. A very well crafted, realistic and very playable simulation of the ACW.

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RE: What's up in the WBTS world? - 5/21/2010 4:34:13 AM

Ralph Harper

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As a proud Confederate American born and raised in South Carolina I guess I have to keep my honor and kick Captain Cliff and all of the Yankee hordes out of the homeland.

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RE: What's up in the WBTS world? - 5/22/2010 12:46:51 AM

gijas

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

IMHO this is one of Gary's and (2by3's) best games ever, well worth jumping in and giving it a try, you will not regret it. A very well crafted, realistic and very playable simulation of the ACW.

Thanks Eric. Sounds like a decent title and worth playing. Can u give me a discount... k, thought Id try.

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RE: What's up in the WBTS world? - 5/24/2010 3:59:57 PM

Gargoil

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I purchased the game two days ago. I have played and enjoyed FoF, and I like complex games. But I never liked FoFs production model. And the tactical battles, while very well done, made the game to long winded.

I am finding the WbtS to have all the details I need while staying at a playable level.

I think you may still get quite a following as people trickle in to try this game. I know I avoided it for a while based solely on the little men and horsey look of the troops on the map. I have switch to NATO symbols. I never understood the appeal of a massive army being depicted by one dude with a rifle

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RE: What's up in the WBTS world? - 5/24/2010 7:00:37 PM

Capt Cliff

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ralph Harper

As a proud Confederate American born and raised in South Carolina I guess I have to keep my honor and kick Captain Cliff and all of the Yankee hordes out of the homeland.

Well since me Great Granddaddy was with in the 8th Michigan Infantry in the Grand Army of the Republic, a drummer boy, from Wilderness to Appomatix I'll have to accept the challenge from this insolent South Caorlinian rebel!!!

BTW, my avatar is my Grandfathers regemental flag!

< Message edited by Capt Cliff -- 5/24/2010 7:02:39 PM >

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RE: What's up in the WBTS world? - 10/12/2010 6:46:10 PM

JRB823

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I bought the game but was turned off by the game play. I didn't care much for the mechanics and I didn't find things to be that intuitive. The mark in my opinion of a good game is one that a veteran wargamer can muddle through with only occasionally consulting the manual. I wasn't able to that with this game, and had to read through it twice before I could get a basic understanding of it. Graphics are normally a minor deal for me but I don't get the feeling of the immension I get with the other civil war games as the map seems too small and seems disjointed, and doesn't allow for grand scale manuever.

For my money Ageod makes the best civil war game out there, with the Matrix civil war game a very close second.

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RE: What's up in the WBTS world? - 10/12/2010 7:19:18 PM

Capt Cliff

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JRB823

I bought the game but was turned off by the game play. I didn't care much for the mechanics and I didn't find things to be that intuitive. The mark in my opinion of a good game is one that a veteran wargamer can muddle through with only occasionally consulting the manual. I wasn't able to that with this game, and had to read through it twice before I could get a basic understanding of it. Graphics are normally a minor deal for me but I don't get the feeling of the immension I get with the other civil war games as the map seems too small and seems disjointed, and doesn't allow for grand scale manuever.

For my money Ageod makes the best civil war game out there, with the Matrix civil war game a very close second.

Ageod looks very simple ... too simple almost child like. If I were you I would learn the I/O, yes it isn't standard and there is a lot of right clicking to exit things, and try it again. It's best played against a human. I keep getting killed by the AI when I play the CSA. It invades Richmond in summer of 62'. You can zoom the map in but remember your playing Lincoln and Jefferson. My main gripe now is that 4 armies is not enough. The Federals should have 6 or 8 and the south 5 or 6. Are you playing with the Corp commander option? Did you play the game and beat it or just give up? There are a lot of options you should select to give the game more depth. IMHO

If you want to a PBEM game let me know.

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RE: What's up in the WBTS world? - 11/18/2010 9:27:46 PM

Champagne

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I have some questions over in the War Room that I hope to address.

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RE: What's up in the WBTS world? - 12/6/2010 11:30:44 PM

Treefrog

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I was a Beta tester, game purchaser and earlier contributor to this forum with observations and questions. I played about a dozen PBEM games.

Outstanding grand strategy simulation !

What's up now? People move on and that has happened here (happened to all my old Avalon Hill and Strategic Simulation games too). I found a Union strategy that even my most brilliant opponents were unable to counter, so I moved on too.

My pbem coterie did think that the CSA has too much (and unrealistic) strategic capability, so we reduced the CSA army commanders in general play from 4 to 3 (the fourth was required to remain in the Trans-Mississippi).

I haven't been following the forum discussions, but tend to think that new patches will not revive interest.

My computer ate the first game, so I bought it twice. I would do so again.

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RE: What's up in the WBTS world? - 12/7/2010 3:03:11 PM

NavalNewZ

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.

< Message edited by NavalNewZ -- 12/7/2010 5:20:58 PM >

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RE: What's up in the WBTS world? - 12/7/2010 4:44:38 PM

IronWarrior

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I have just recently been wanting to get back into this game actually.

Thing is, I have fallen in love with WitP and now WitP AE and haven't had the time for much else.

Was mulling it over a little last night and here's my take on some things...

My two favorite features I look for are: pbem capability and WEGO. WbtS wins the first out of the three offerings, and ageod's title wins the latter. For me, pbem is more important though, so WbtS is my favorite of the three. I also think WbtS gives the most accurate and realistic results.

If WitP didn't suck up all of my free time I would definately play this title more, and I probably will once some of my pbem games finish up of other games. Outstanding game that still works even without WEGO. WitE is going to snag a lot of my time again though- a curse of just how great 2by3 games are.

I would love to see you guys do the Napoleonic campaigns... not the entire Grand Campaign, but the various ones in greater detail.

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RE: What's up in the WBTS world? - 12/22/2010 11:11:04 PM

Asty

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For what it's worth, I am just starting to pick this one up and enjoying the initial foray quite a bit.

I bought the game when it first came out, but it takes a while for titles to make it through my 'queue' sometimes. Having a two year old doesn't help in that regard.

I think this game is pretty original, and non-intuitive. Two qualities I rate highly. I'm more on the side of gameplay, so if a game has the utmost modeling and detail to the nth degree but has derivative gameplay, I'm less interested.

I'm just getting my feet wet but I'll let you know how it develops.

Is there any chance Gary does another non WW II title?

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RE: What's up in the WBTS world? - 12/24/2010 10:31:50 PM

ruixilyy

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I am interested in this game but i still want someone to confirm me whether this game can be run under 1024*600 screen resolution (my laptop is a netbook)?

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RE: What's up in the WBTS world? - 12/25/2010 11:13:19 PM

Asty

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Aw, don't hijack the thread. You've got another one devoted to this topic. It's a good game besides, doesn't really matter the resolution.

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RE: What's up in the WBTS world? - 12/30/2010 12:34:04 AM

ruixilyy

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Doesn't really matter? You should know that some games will not run under 1024*600, for the reason that their minimum support resolution is 1024*768. However, I can not find any information which specify the minimum resolution of this game. I really do not want to buy a game that can not run in my netbook. By now, it is disappinting that no one from Matrix Games clarify this issue, so i have to wait until i get the answer, otherwise i will not buy this game.

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RE: What's up in the WBTS world? - 1/3/2011 8:04:46 PM

Joel Billings

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I don't know for sure, but I think the minimum resolution on all of our games is 1024x768, sorry.

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RE: What's up in the WBTS world? - 1/24/2011 12:21:11 PM

RangerX3X

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I find it interesting that you guys at 2X3 went in another direction other than WW2. From what I have seen the game looks promising, however given the fact that it is a 2008 title and in this thread you admit that development has ceased, the $49/$59 price point that Matrix is pushing is simply preventing my purchase. With no demo and the manual/tutorials not having kept pace with the updates that were made, it is too risky a proposition to fork over that kind of gaming cash.

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