DP Gun question

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vettim89
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DP Gun question

Post by vettim89 »

Just a quick question. Which value in the device section will affect ship board AAA effectiveness? Is it accuracy? If it is, does that mean that adjusting the AAA value of DP guns inheritantly increases there Naval Combat value too?
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JWE
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RE: DP Gun question

Post by JWE »

Not allowed to say, but whichever it is, yes - if you mess with it to get better AA you will most definitely trash the naval combat value. We are looking at this as well.
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RE: DP Gun question

Post by Buck Beach »

ORIGINAL: JWE

Not allowed to say, but whichever it is, yes - if you mess with it to get better AA you will most definitely trash the naval combat value. We are looking at this as well.

Don't wish to ruffle any feathers but I don't understand why the secrecy, after all if it is a modifiable feature having nothing to do with the "hard code". Must be difficult for you to keep up with all the rules JWE.

Please do not reply to this if it is a sensitive issue, wouldn't want you to get back on the dirty end of the stick.

Buck
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vettim89
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RE: DP Gun question

Post by vettim89 »

ORIGINAL: JWE

Not allowed to say, but whichever it is, yes - if you mess with it to get better AA you will most definitely trash the naval combat value. We are looking at this as well.


Was afraid of that. Would like to play with AAA effectiveness some but do not want the cocommitment changes to surface combat. Rats
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JuanG
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RE: DP Gun question

Post by JuanG »

Accuracy and Effect both seem to factor into it, though from what I've seen only Effect affects the ships "AA Rating" on the ship info screen - however I'm not sure this is the whole story.

It would be nice to have different Effect and Accuracy fields for Anti-Air and Anti-Surface calculations, but I doubt a change like that is possible at this stage.
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RE: DP Gun question

Post by akdreemer »

ORIGINAL: vettim89

Just a quick question. Which value in the device section will affect ship board AAA effectiveness? Is it accuracy? If it is, does that mean that adjusting the AAA value of DP guns inheritantly increases there Naval Combat value too?
For AA guns themselves, I am leaning towards the mount concept which so far seems to work. As an example a twin 40mm Bofors counts as one device, has the same accuracy as a single mount, but when its effect is twice.

Somewhere I read that a Dual 5"/38 mount's max rate of fire was somewhat less than two singles combined. I am wondering how many other twin and triples that suffer the same effect and is this reflected in the device tables?
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RE: DP Gun question

Post by akdreemer »

There are of course several other issues in naval aa fire, Radar fire control and VT fuzes. How are these to be incorporated into mid-war US Navy DP and AA Guns?
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RE: DP Gun question

Post by vettim89 »

ORIGINAL: AlaskanWarrior

There are of course several other issues in naval aa fire, Radar fire control and VT fuzes. How are these to be incorporated into mid-war US Navy DP and AA Guns?


I believe that is hard coded into the system like dud torpedoes. The system enhances the AAA effectiveness of US 5 " mounts at some point. At least that is the way it was in WiTP
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RE: DP Gun question

Post by akdreemer »

ORIGINAL: vettim89

ORIGINAL: AlaskanWarrior

There are of course several other issues in naval aa fire, Radar fire control and VT fuzes. How are these to be incorporated into mid-war US Navy DP and AA Guns?


I believe that is hard coded into the system like dud torpedoes. The system enhances the AAA effectiveness of US 5 " mounts at some point. At least that is the way it was in WiTP
Maybe your correct, I do not seem to recall this somewhere in the manual.
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JWE
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RE: DP Gun question

Post by JWE »

Hi Buck, vettim89,
It’s not really a secret, it’s just that we all work under an agreement not to disclose the inner workings of the machine. I think it is a very good rule. But there are lots of things that can be determined by a player willing to do some recursive testing, and I don’t think it’s a violation of the rule to give some hints as to the likely outcome. After all, they will get there eventually anyway.

DP guns are obviously used in both AA and Naval combat, so changing effect to optimize AA mode will skew its effectiveness in Naval – becomes either nerfed or uber when compared to the identical naval-only type gun. Not really front page news. AA guns are also used in naval combat, but mostly for shooting up merchies, barges, PTs, stuff like that, so it’s modder's choice if they want to skew this sort of naval combat in order to mess with AA guns (these are your .50s, 13.2s, 20s, 25s, 1.1s, 40s).
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RE: DP Gun question

Post by vettim89 »

ORIGINAL: JWE

Hi Buck, vettim89,
It’s not really a secret, it’s just that we all work under an agreement not to disclose the inner workings of the machine. I think it is a very good rule. But there are lots of things that can be determined by a player willing to do some recursive testing, and I don’t think it’s a violation of the rule to give some hints as to the likely outcome. After all, they will get there eventually anyway.

DP guns are obviously used in both AA and Naval combat, so changing effect to optimize AA mode will skew its effectiveness in Naval – becomes either nerfed or uber when compared to the identical naval-only type gun. Not really front page news. AA guns are also used in naval combat, but mostly for shooting up merchies, barges, PTs, stuff like that, so it’s modder's choice if they want to skew this sort of naval combat in order to mess with AA guns (these are your .50s, 13.2s, 20s, 25s, 1.1s, 40s).


Me personally, its not a trade off I would like to make. I would hate to see disproportionate Naval Combat results even if I would like to tweak some AAA values. Guess its a case of choosing ones poison
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Dili
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RE: DP Gun question

Post by Dili »

One way might be how the AA/DP ceiling works. AA/DP ceiling has no effect in naval combat as far as i know, so trying to tweak the best ceiling value to the typical altitude enemy planes came might increase the gun performance. Let's say a 5"/38 and that it only matters to best hit attacks that came at 20000ft or below, because level bombing over that ceiling the hit chances are few, now lets suppose that the DP game rules state the best chance for a DP gun are at 80% of ceiling. So 80% = 20000ft max ceiling then should be 25000ft.


AlaskanWarrior, i think choosing values too outside the current ones might wreak the whole thing. How do rate a 40mm Quad? 4x the effect?

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RE: DP Gun question

Post by JWE »

ORIGINAL: vettim89
Me personally, its not a trade off I would like to make. I would hate to see disproportionate Naval Combat results even if I would like to tweak some AAA values. Guess its a case of choosing ones poison
Yes, it's a bitch. But if you internalize the premis, you can find out stuff that would be very helpful to the devs. Ok - so leave the DPs where they are - there's only two real flak modes anyway, shooting at planes at their 'incoming' altitudes, and shooting at planes at their 'delivery' altitudes. Obviously, a player is going to set 'incoming' to avoid the ceiling of the lower level stuff - duh! So you get to play with the low level ceiling stuff. Just how bad/nasty/nerfed is it? Lots of data about this specific area would be very beneficial.
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RE: DP Gun question

Post by akdreemer »

ORIGINAL: Dili
AlaskanWarrior, I think choosing values too outside the current ones might wreak the whole thing. How do rate a 40mm Quad? 4x the effect?

Actually the only thing that I change is the effectiveness, thus a single 40mm has an effectiveness of 20. A quad has an effectiveness of 80, but only counts as one shot. Thus you end up with less chances to hit with the quad, as opposed to 4 seperate single shots, but if you do hit it destroys the plane, which historically is accurate. Ditto for the other rapid fire AAGuns. I pretty much left accuracy alone.

For me, at least, this represents the limiting effect of mounts, instead of single barrels, in in the number of targets they can engage. It also represents the fact that multi-barrel auto-weapon mounts are not not more accurate, but when they hit something they do a great deal more damage.

As far as 'wreaking' it, why do mods? Why tweak, or otherwise modify, devices? Just your very suggestion that AA altitude ranges could be tweaked to give best performance at a certain altitude. I doubt the effect I am trying will wreak the game. I do know from early testing that tweaking the accuracy values in AA really mucks up things.

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RE: DP Gun question

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: AlaskanWarrior

It also represents the fact that multi-barrel auto-weapon mounts are not not more accurate, but when they hit something they do a great deal more damage.

This might be the case, but not necessarily. For some weapons it might be a blending of the two.

Every projectile has a probability that it will fall within a certain circle. Take something at maximum range, aim at it perfectly (obviously only possible in bench type testing) - and your rounds will fall within a circle of a certain size. The size of the circle will vary for each weapon & ammo combination. Obviously when you add in other things like the eyes of the shooter, movement, etc. etc. things get less and less accurate.

Sticking with the perfect aiming example for a minute, consider a multi-weapon mount. Are all of the weapons aimed exactly the same? If so, then (looking at the laboratory example) a round from each barrel will fall within a circle, and the center of the circles (one for each barrel) will be offset by the distance between the barrels.

For example, suppose that the circle for each projectile to hit within is (I'm making this up) 3 feet diameter when aimed at a target 1 mile away (made up numbers just for illustration!). The weapon has 4 barrels in a line, each barrel 18 inches from the next in line. So the circles for the rounds to hit will overlap also. In theory, if the right hand round hit farthest to the right, and the left hand round hit farthest to the left, they would be 14 1/2 feet apart (I hope I did the math right).

See the attached diagram.

Now suppose that the 4 weapons in the mount are not aimed precisely the same - instead of the centers of those circles being only 18 inches apart, they might be 10 feet apart. How often do multiple mounts get calibrated, anyway? Versus how often do they take some punishment, suffer temperature increase and decrease, etc.

The point is, if the guns are actually aimed very closely together then maybe you get a little increase in accuracy but good chances of multiple hits as you say. But if the guns are not aimed quite as close together then they will cover more sky but have very little chance of multiple hits from overlapping impact areas.

Note: I'm not trying to be ultra-precise in this description, just hopefully clearly illustrate the point.

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JWE
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RE: DP Gun question

Post by JWE »

Yes indeed, witpqs. There's a poopload of interaction dynamics going on in multi-barrel cyclic weapons. Multi-barrel effectivity is a nasty calculation, but a real simple calc (that ends up being darn close most of the time) is (Sqrt2 x Sqrt(number of barrels)). A twin is about 1.9x as effective as two singles. A quad is about 2.8x as effective as four singles - ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL.

Of course, effectivity analysis looks at things in a different context than the game engine. The game sees things in terms of individual barrels. As JuanG has determined, the flak rating is the number of barrels in the Num column, times the Effect of the weapon from the device definition. if a ship has 5 quad Bofors on one side, the Num is 20; the Effect is 20, so that weapon slot develops a flak rating of 400. If the Bofors device is made a Quad device, and make Effect 80, the Num should go to 5, which still gives 400. If Num stays at 20, that means the game is seeing a flak rating of 1600 - a trifle high, imho.

Think tweaking with the Bofors effect would be a tad more efficient. Raising or lowering effect by 10%, 25%, 50%, would tend to be a bit more illustrative. btw, ceiling plays a role - and would humbly submit that the "raw" effect numbers of a Bofors should be 1.7x the "raw" effect numbers of a 25mm T-96. What this works out to, after cranking the math for a gazillion attacks, at a gazillion altitudes, by a gazillion plane types, is that a Bofors has an "effective" effect of about 3.2x that of a 25mm. Notably, the really hard, grainy, specific, naval wargames (using seriously complex computational algorithms) - Larry Bond stuff - puts a Bofors at 3.6x a 25mm. Also btw, btw, 20mm and 1.1s have a "raw" effect in a similar range as the 25mm, but since their ceilings are lower, their "effective" effect is lower as well.

In other words - pinging on a single parameter will likely bite ya in the brookie. My repetitive, boring, cautionary, mantra is that stuff is interrelated, sometimes in unintuitive ways. So tweaks should involve small vectors, and include the closest, similarly situated, opposing weapon system.

But hey, that's just how a bunch of math drooling whackos are looking at this stuff. It ain't the Gospel according to Woof. Just some thoughts and suggestions.
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RE: DP Gun question

Post by Dili »

AlaskanWarrior my point is that if you don't know how the system works any big change "might wreak the whole thing".
For example the mounts are already designed in editor
as "turrets" so unless that is just a code complication for no reason at all the game would use turret. Now it is possible that code uses only turrets for damage and not for AA. I don't know if the game splits the mounts(would mean turrets working) or the tubes(would mean turrets not working) by attacking planes.

Caveat: your thinking might make more sense for multiple tube land based AA since there is not a "turret" like in ships if it indeed the ship ones works . But then there is the need to know the game guts. In the end the issue resumes to knowing how it works.

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RE: DP Gun question

Post by vettim89 »

Factoring can be a dangerous thing. Considering of A x B = C. Lets say our desired value for C is 20. The possible factors would be (assuming intergers only)

1x20
2x10
4x5
5x4
10x2
20x1

I know that is stating the obvious but the problem is that both values A and B may be used elsewhere in the game, eg A x D = E and B x F = G. So it become not only important to get C to equal twenty but to make sure that you didn't booger the values of E and G in the process. Good luck with that
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RE: DP Gun question

Post by treespider »

ORIGINAL: JWE

Yes indeed, witpqs. There's a poopload of interaction dynamics going on in multi-barrel cyclic weapons. Multi-barrel effectivity is a nasty calculation, but a real simple calc (that ends up being darn close most of the time) is (Sqrt2 x Sqrt(number of barrels)). A twin is about 1.9x as effective as two singles. A quad is about 2.8x as effective as four singles - ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL.

Of course, effectivity analysis looks at things in a different context than the game engine. The game sees things in terms of individual barrels. As JuanG has determined, the flak rating is the number of barrels in the Num column, times the Effect of the weapon from the device definition. if a ship has 5 quad Bofors on one side, the Num is 20; the Effect is 20, so that weapon slot develops a flak rating of 400. If the Bofors device is made a Quad device, and make Effect 80, the Num should go to 5, which still gives 400. If Num stays at 20, that means the game is seeing a flak rating of 1600 - a trifle high, imho.

Think tweaking with the Bofors effect would be a tad more efficient. Raising or lowering effect by 10%, 25%, 50%, would tend to be a bit more illustrative. btw, ceiling plays a role - and would humbly submit that the "raw" effect numbers of a Bofors should be 1.7x the "raw" effect numbers of a 25mm T-96. What this works out to, after cranking the math for a gazillion attacks, at a gazillion altitudes, by a gazillion plane types, is that a Bofors has an "effective" effect of about 3.2x that of a 25mm. Notably, the really hard, grainy, specific, naval wargames (using seriously complex computational algorithms) - Larry Bond stuff - puts a Bofors at 3.6x a 25mm. Also btw, btw, 20mm and 1.1s have a "raw" effect in a similar range as the 25mm, but since their ceilings are lower, their "effective" effect is lower as well.

In other words - pinging on a single parameter will likely bite ya in the brookie. My repetitive, boring, cautionary, mantra is that stuff is interrelated, sometimes in unintuitive ways. So tweaks should involve small vectors, and include the closest, similarly situated, opposing weapon system.

But hey, that's just how a bunch of math drooling whackos are looking at this stuff. It ain't the Gospel according to Woof. Just some thoughts and suggestions.


One approach you could try ...create new devices to represent mounts instead of barrels (numbers pulled out the wazoo for illustrative purposes)

So using the RAW effectivity enhancements discuused above of 1.9 and 2.8 you would see -

Device Number 1: (1) 40mm/60 AA gun - Effect: 10 (Single mount 40mm)
Device Number 2: (2) 40 mm/60 AA gun - Effect: 38 (Dual mount 40mm) ((Eff 10 + Eff 10) x 1.9)
Device Number 3: (4) 40 mm/60 AA gun - Effect: 112 (Quad mount 40mm) (Eff 40 x 2.8)

---------

With all that being said - is a single Quad mount trully 11.2 times more "effective" than 1 single mount?

It certainly might be if you were engaging a single target....but I bet you wish you had 4 single mounts if you were being attacked by 4 separate aggressors.


So how would one factor that in? Just food for thought...
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Dili
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RE: DP Gun question

Post by Dili »

One approach you could try ...create new devices to represent mounts instead of barrels (numbers pulled out the wazoo for illustrative purposes)

?! that is what AlaskanWarrior is making and what JWE was commenting.
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