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Largest military, but underpowered

 
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Largest military, but underpowered - 5/9/2010 1:05:12 PM   
pcall

 

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First of, what is the most effective way to attack with Fleets? When I have a Fleet of ships selected, can I have them all attack a target by right clicking on a target and selecting attack?

Also it seems like I stupidly built nothing but capital ships and although I have the largest amount of military strength compared to any other race....the fact that it's nothing but capital ships seems to be a problem. Smaller ships are able to outrun me and killing heavily armored targets still takes forever despite the massive amount of guns. Though it seems both my laser tech and torpedo tech is quite out dated compared to my enemies.

Hmmmm I think I should start a new game. I'm still very much a 4x newbie, and this is really my first 4x game. I am enjoying it though.
Post #: 1
RE: Largest military, but underpowered - 5/9/2010 1:47:47 PM   
Lamb Chop

 

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Yes you can just right click on stuff and send it to meet it's maker.
Late Game, I build nothing but capitals and escorts, sometimes cruisers or escorts.
Do you have enough power output to feed your engines and weapons?
That is left over power in green after your static modules

(in reply to pcall)
Post #: 2
RE: Largest military, but underpowered - 5/9/2010 6:07:38 PM   
Rustyallan

 

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Make sure your capital ships have Hyper-deny fields and use all torpedoes and no for the longer range and higher dps.  (next patch will hopefully rebalance that a bit.)

You really should have some faster ships in the mix though as well.  Torpedoes still out-damage beams by a lot though.

(in reply to Lamb Chop)
Post #: 3
RE: Largest military, but underpowered - 5/10/2010 3:47:33 AM   
pcall

 

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How fast should my capitals be engine wise, and how much excess (in green) power output should I have?

(in reply to Rustyallan)
Post #: 4
RE: Largest military, but underpowered - 5/10/2010 3:49:55 AM   
Cindar

 

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Make really big ships instead of lots of lots of small ones (you seem to be doing this already).

Always have the strongest torpedoes available, barter for them or crash research them if you must. Stack tons of them onto any and all ships and bases. Early game, as many as you can load onto the ships while still having a decent amount of shields, speed, and being able to power it all. Later on aim for about 1-2.5k firepower depending on just how much you hate your current AI opponent.

Make sure the reactors are providing ample energy. It needs to be greater then the rate at which the weapons AND engines use energy, if its less you will be going at 50% speed or slower.

A good speed to aim for is around 30-60 depending on how large your design is and how strong of engines you have developed. Worst case, its better to have a slow design that is unkillable rather then a fast design that is paper. This assumes you have the strongest torpedoes, though. If your enemies have stronger torpedoes that outrange you, then they will sit outside your range and your own weapons are useless.

Lots of shields = good. Lots of armor = bad. Only space monsters pierce armor so you are better off putting strong rechargable shields then you are loading up on armor. A small amount doesn't hurt, but its very rare that space monsters even get to touch your ships.

Generally I set most of my ships to flee at 50%. Most of the time if you start to flee while at 20% you are just going to end up dead in space by the time the hyperdrive warms up. If you do this you won't have many casualties unless you massively underestimate the enemies strength.

Yes weapon balance is skewed horribly in favor of torpedoes. Hopefully in a few patches you will have more interesting choices then currently.

< Message edited by Cindar -- 5/10/2010 3:57:29 AM >

(in reply to Rustyallan)
Post #: 5
RE: Largest military, but underpowered - 5/10/2010 12:26:56 PM   
Fishman

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pcall

How fast should my capitals be engine wise, and how much excess (in green) power output should I have?
Nothing less than speed 40, with an endtech speed of 60-80 as a target. Green Power output should be greater than or equal to sprint + weapons.

(in reply to pcall)
Post #: 6
RE: Largest military, but underpowered - 5/12/2010 7:55:43 AM   
the1sean


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From: Texas, USA
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Lots of escorts and frigates, but leave them automated for patrols and escort duty. Escorts get the light duty, guarding convoys, and Frigates are used by the AI to deal with problems that the Escorts cant deal with. A good rule of thumb when designing escorts is that they should be able to handle ONE pirate ship, and a Frigate or two should be able to handle anything tougher short of a small war. However, make sure to keep your Escorts and Frigates cheap and underpowered, as Fishman can attest, Pirates can get their hands on a copy of any race's Escorts and Frigates. The advisor AI gives great suggestions when you need to construct more Escorts and Frigates.

I would suggest chatting up all the races you know and seeing if you can trade anything for their techs. It also helps to have some as friends, maybe build the bridges first. Catching up in tech should be a big priority.

Lastly, hyper interdictors are a great suggestion, but I would like to expand on the idea. Use Destroyers as your "fast attack" ships with plenty of speed and maneuverability (engines and thrusters) to chase down fairly fast opponents. Next use your Cruisers as "heavy hitters" with enough weapons and shields to slug it out with the toughest enemies. Lastly use your Capital Ships as flagships alongside your Cruisers and Destroyers, shield them up and give them one of every item you that you only need one of in a fleet (long range scanners, warp interdictors, large troop complements). Also, consider designing a tough-as-nails Resupply ship with tons of cannon and shields. Hot key it separately from the fleet, and send it to the same systems that your main fleet goes to. Most systems have a gas giant with Caslon/Hydrogen. Park your resupply ship there and it should help things immensely.

(in reply to Fishman)
Post #: 7
RE: Largest military, but underpowered - 5/12/2010 8:18:13 AM   
Fishman

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: the1sean

However, make sure to keep your Escorts and Frigates cheap and underpowered, as Fishman can attest, Pirates can get their hands on a copy of any race's Escorts and Frigates. The advisor AI gives great suggestions when you need to construct more Escorts and Frigates.
The problem with keeping them cheap and underpowered is that then they are useless and unable to actually fulfill their functions. There is little point in building them if they are just going to lose the fight, and if they aren't underpowered, then they will become a problem. Unless you're playing a strategy where you buy all the pirates. Then they're someone else's problem.

(in reply to the1sean)
Post #: 8
RE: Largest military, but underpowered - 5/12/2010 2:09:18 PM   
Axefire

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman

The problem with keeping them cheap and underpowered is that then they are useless and unable to actually fulfill their functions. There is little point in building them if they are just going to lose the fight, and if they aren't underpowered, then they will become a problem. Unless you're playing a strategy where you buy all the pirates. Then they're someone else's problem.


But if you get caught using the pirates, your reputation also gets a hit.

(in reply to Fishman)
Post #: 9
RE: Largest military, but underpowered - 5/12/2010 2:57:32 PM   
Fishman

 

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I think that only occurs if you order them to attack someone covertly, not when you simply ally undirectedly with them. Additionally, rep is far less important in 1.04+, as warlike citizens are no longer concerned with your rep and the benefits of multiculturalism have been greatly reduced-to-eliminated. Besides, everyone else is evil. As you've seen from the screenshots, typical AI reputation ranges from Dubious to Diabolical. You have to really WORK to get and keep a rep that bad.

(in reply to Axefire)
Post #: 10
RE: Largest military, but underpowered - 5/12/2010 8:59:57 PM   
Cindar

 

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If you are allied with them, they will often decide to attack anyone nearby for you anyway. Under the diplomacy tab it will then state that they are attacking X faction and it counts against you.

But yeah, its true that rep isn't all that important. Just keep your rep above the rest of the galaxy average, and the AI's will usually declare war on each other before they declare war on you.

(in reply to Fishman)
Post #: 11
RE: Largest military, but underpowered - 5/14/2010 4:29:39 AM   
the1sean


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From: Texas, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman

quote:

ORIGINAL: the1sean

However, make sure to keep your Escorts and Frigates cheap and underpowered, as Fishman can attest, Pirates can get their hands on a copy of any race's Escorts and Frigates. The advisor AI gives great suggestions when you need to construct more Escorts and Frigates.
The problem with keeping them cheap and underpowered is that then they are useless and unable to actually fulfill their functions. There is little point in building them if they are just going to lose the fight, and if they aren't underpowered, then they will become a problem. Unless you're playing a strategy where you buy all the pirates. Then they're someone else's problem.


Good call, Fishman. I didnt literally mean make them underpowered, I should have said not to make your escorts and frigates overpowered.

I still design effective ships that can beat the pirates, I just dont design them to be invincible battlecruisers bristling with death. I like to keep my costs down. A good rule of thumb is to make sure that your escorts will win one-on-one confrontations with the average pirate or enemy empire escort (the average escorts being the very ships that pirates fly, with different artwork). Double the firepower and shields of your escorts for your frigates, keep both designs relatively quick and agile, and put a few more of them in service than the AI requests, and you will usually be at least one good step ahead of the pirates, and all but the meanest swarms of space monsters.

Also, I never ally with pirates, giving them any cash just makes the situation worse as they will buy more ships on the black market! And sooner or later things will get out of hand economically, screwing up lucrative trade routes, etc. As long as I keep escorts and frigates flying and updated, they rarely lose very many fights. However, I have quite a few extremely fast scout ships always doing recon, and i put scanners (and guns) on my civilian craft which helps tilt the balance against raiders (one armed merchant plus an agile escort vs one pirate, and they see the pirate early enough to call for help). all those extra eyes also means that I am constantly finding (and immediately neutralizing) "hidden" pirate bases. I have one fleet of destroyers that is almost always busy knocking out a new pirate base somewhere in the galaxy.

Pirates are like weeds, if you dont constantly prune them, they will overrun your beautiful lawn. Just try not to nuke your lawn in the process.

(in reply to Fishman)
Post #: 12
RE: Largest military, but underpowered - 5/14/2010 7:55:49 AM   
Fishman

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: the1sean

Good call, Fishman. I didnt literally mean make them underpowered, I should have said not to make your escorts and frigates overpowered.
No, I understood what you meant just fine. My point stands. If your ships are not more powerful than your opponents, you won't win the fight. But since your ships *ARE* your opponents, you can NEVER win the fight! Therefore, if you underpower them so that you can defeat them with your other ships, there is no point in building them at all!

quote:

ORIGINAL: the1sean

A good rule of thumb is to make sure that your escorts will win one-on-one confrontations with the average pirate or enemy empire escort (the average escorts being the very ships that pirates fly, with different artwork).
The flaw in this is that if your escort is better than the galactic average, by a selective process, the galactic average will BECOME your escort as everyone else is rapidly killed. Since your escort cannot defeat ITSELF, you now once again have a ship that is incapable of fulfilling its function of destroying all the other ships.

quote:

ORIGINAL: the1sean

Double the firepower and shields of your escorts for your frigates, keep both designs relatively quick and agile, and put a few more of them in service than the AI requests, and you will usually be at least one good step ahead of the pirates, and all but the meanest swarms of space monsters.
I used to do this. But pirates have frigates, and the result of doubling the firepower and shields of a ship that is quick and agile is an UNKILLABLE DEMON MACHINE. It may not be the deadliest thing, but since it is able to escape from anything that could kill it, it will will haunt you forever and create a gradually increasing speed race in ships as you need to design faster ships to chase down that one and kill it, and faster ships still to hunt down THAT one and kill it...and frankly, it's just not worth it unless...

quote:

ORIGINAL: the1sean

Also, I never ally with pirates, giving them any cash just makes the situation worse as they will buy more ships on the black market!
Yes, I don't either. But if you DID do this, those ships would now be someone else's problem.

quote:

ORIGINAL: the1sean

Pirates are like weeds, if you dont constantly prune them, they will overrun your beautiful lawn. Just try not to nuke your lawn in the process.
Funny...that's sort of what I did. This is actually highly recommended, as it grants attackers no cover as they approach you, and is considered a traditional practice that is performed even today.

But scouting with heavily armed explorer-battlecruisers of death works very well indeed. My explorers are often the first to run into danger, so I tend to arm them as heavy skirmishers. Indeed, for maybe the first 30 years of the game, they make up my entire navy.

(in reply to the1sean)
Post #: 13
RE: Largest military, but underpowered - 5/14/2010 6:42:46 PM   
Cindar

 

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I have never actually seen a pirate base that was completely full of super-ships. At most, even VERY late in the game (like, I control 50% and won the game 50 years ago) with galaxies teeming with pirates I hardly encounter a handful of pirates using strong ships. The idea that they will overrun the galaxy in the amount of time any sane person would play is ludacris.

Now obviously its a rather silly issue that should be fixed, but if anything both the pirates and the other races should be building super ships on their own, since the player is currently able to do so.

< Message edited by Cindar -- 5/14/2010 6:47:01 PM >

(in reply to Fishman)
Post #: 14
RE: Largest military, but underpowered - 5/15/2010 5:15:44 AM   
the1sean


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Well Fishman, a frigate with 2 lasers, 2 torpedo bays, and 2 shield generators is hardly an unstoppable demon killing machine. I just havent had the problems with pirates that you are experiencing I guess, I never let any pirate faction get too out of hand before I trash their base, so lightly armed escorts work for me...

< Message edited by the1sean -- 5/15/2010 5:21:34 AM >

(in reply to Cindar)
Post #: 15
RE: Largest military, but underpowered - 7/23/2010 2:05:41 PM   
Gertjan

 

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Interesting thread and good advise. Thanks for the question, you're not the only one who has problems with this micro management aspect of the game. I prefer to leave it to automation, but sometimes I may want to fiddle with it myself.
Post #: 16
RE: Largest military, but underpowered - 7/24/2010 5:51:23 AM   
torrenal

 

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I'm myself trying to devise roles for ships based mainly around the problems pirates present. (I think I have found a way to permamently crush them and am testing it in sandbox mode, but.... expect the game to end long before you can manage that...)

Escort: The role I give these guys is twofold: Protect Merchants. Feed Nobody.
To meet that, I take the base Escort vessel and strip it down to a single weapon. I tack on 5 armor, and set the engagement criteria to run when attacked. When I get it, I sneak in 1 repair bot, but don't have much hopes for the bot helping in any real fight.
What this does: Whenever someone attacks the escort, he runs. Shooting back is immaterial. The weapon makes him feel 'safe', but he's no safer than a guy with a knife in a gun-fight. No worries, that's not his role. When escorting vessels: He will charge the foe, placing himself between the merchant and the enemy. Once he takes fire, he turns around and hypers out (or so goes the theory... I've seen ship captains ignore this kind of common-sense before, which is one reason for armor). This guy isn't there to kill pirates. He's there to count coup, escape, and come back for more.
The armor is there for the wildlife that ignores shields it gives the escort a half a chance to survive a 'close encounter'.
Evolution with the game: As my tech level permits, I give this guy more engines, pushing for a speed in the 40s, turning him into a semi-survivable recon scout. (Hmm... seeing lots of pirates here. Lets send out some patrols as probes...). At a starting cost of about 1.4k, I'm not too worried about losing these, but they have enough durability to survive the occasional judgment error.

The Frigate: The primary killer of pirates. Once I get torpedoes I swap out his armament for them, save one blaster. As with the escort, I add the armor and repair items. Initially, I don't make him very fast. The goal is enough guns to survive a 3:1 fight. Whenever I update the design, I do need to retrofit a number of my ships, as the pirates use these too, and they will use the new design whether or not I do.
As the game evolves I try to push this guys speed into the 30s or low 40s.
The blaster serves an important role: It gives the All Weapons attack a range to close to on smaller opponents, so that the torpedoes can hit at something short of maximum ineffective range.

The Destroyer: A bigger/slower version of the Frigate. More blasters however to give him some 'Personal Protective Power' in a fleet engagement (Weapons will shoot at what they can reach. If one of these is strolling past an enemy defensive base, I'd rather the ship target the defensive base than the otherwise occupied space-port which is at maximum range, and blasters have that 'Personal Protective Power' effect with their short range.)

The Cruiser: The biggest ship I seriously use for Pirates. As a bigger version of the Destroyer, I'll include a hyper-deny item. In a group, these will surround a target and require any foe to fight past them to escape (great for tackling fleets, or the odd pirate swarm).
//Torrenal

(in reply to pcall)
Post #: 17
RE: Largest military, but underpowered - 7/26/2010 11:30:42 AM   
Fishman

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: the1sean

Well Fishman, a frigate with 2 lasers, 2 torpedo bays, and 2 shield generators is hardly an unstoppable demon killing machine.
It is also completely unworthy of building, so you've defeated the point of it existing at all. In order to be worth the effort of building, it has to NOT end up as a pile of mangled debris the moment you turn your back on it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: torrenal

To meet that, I take the base Escort vessel and strip it down to a single weapon. I tack on 5 armor, and set the engagement criteria to run when attacked.
Does this actually work? I'm not sure how a design that consists entirely of running away from a fight is going to do anything other than be a waste of money. It seems "one weapon, run away uselessly" is something merchants accomplish just fine on their own.

quote:

ORIGINAL: torrenal

Evolution with the game: As my tech level permits, I give this guy more engines, pushing for a speed in the 40s, turning him into a semi-survivable recon scout.
40? That's your idea of fast? I have BATTLESHIPS that go faster than that. My "survivable recon scouts" push for speeds of 80-90. In fact, I pretty much build Explorer ships on the same line one might build an "escort" under. Their mission: To see the galaxy, meet new and interesting lifeforms, and then kill them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: torrenal

The Frigate: The primary killer of pirates. Once I get torpedoes I swap out his armament for them, save one blaster. As with the escort, I add the armor and repair items. Initially, I don't make him very fast. The goal is enough guns to survive a 3:1 fight.
This idea is mathematically flawed: You can't build a ship that can win a 3 on 1 fight against itself, because those ships could also win a 3 on 1 fight against themselves. You can build a ship that can SURVIVE the fight, but in that case, adding more guns is counterproductive the goal, since building a ship capable of surviving fights against themselves involves building ships so impotent that they are unable to penetrate their own armor and shielding.

quote:

ORIGINAL: torrenal

Whenever I update the design, I do need to retrofit a number of my ships, as the pirates use these too, and they will use the new design whether or not I do.
See the problem? This is why you don't make them at all. :P One of the tricks you CAN use is to both never build the design (because it sucks) AND to design it in a way that is impotent, so that they will use it AND suck with it.

Although I have no idea how you can tolerate speeds of 30-40. I guess you don't have leadfoot like I do.

< Message edited by Fishman -- 7/26/2010 11:31:02 AM >

(in reply to torrenal)
Post #: 18
RE: Largest military, but underpowered - 7/29/2010 4:39:04 AM   
torrenal

 

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Joined: 7/12/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman
quote:

ORIGINAL: torrenal

To meet that, I take the base Escort vessel and strip it down to a single weapon. I tack on 5 armor, and set the engagement criteria to run when attacked.
Does this actually work? I'm not sure how a design that consists entirely of running away from a fight is going to do anything other than be a waste of money. It seems "one weapon, run away uselessly" is something merchants accomplish just fine on their own.

These ships pull quadruple duty for me.
1) They draw fire while merchants flee, then flee themselves. With more shields and some armor, they are far better suited to receiving fire than any merchant.

2) They do ok against worms (they do tend to be flighty ships in a fight), and can leverage their armor enough to flee a kraltor even when it gets a piece of them. The default designs tend to be canned soldiers for the wildlife, but this actually tends to last.

3) They act as a tripwire, running around on their own finding pirates, wildlife, etc.... and live to go back out after most misadventures.

4) They can be built in swarms. There is an advantage to having lots of eyes I can direct. They act as exploration ships in the very early and even mid game. Early, they get sent out to peek at systems for habitable planets and pirates, later I split them off off to go explore the latest discovery. Being built in droves, you will always have two or six handy to send at a pirate ship attacking a mining station. They may not always kill the pirate, but the mining station will survive, and if nothing bigger is in range (possible if I'm in a 2-front war), the pirate will flee before touching the base (pirates have to deal with lack of fuel too).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman
quote:

ORIGINAL: torrenal
Evolution with the game: As my tech level permits, I give this guy more engines, pushing for a speed in the 40s, turning him into a semi-survivable recon scout.
40? That's your idea of fast? I have BATTLESHIPS that go faster than that. My "survivable recon scouts" push for speeds of 80-90....

And any of my equal-tech-level ships will defeat yours in any stand up fight, because you gut the armament for the extra speed. Speed, to a point, is good -- anything under 24 risks being unable to dock at a port 50% of the time, and will stall in a no-hyper zone. Anything fast enough to outrun the wildlife while activating hyper is good. Once you get past that, speed largely becomes meaningless. The faster ship will slow down to keep the slower ship in attack range, and will remain there until it decides to either refuel, or flee. If you can kill it between when it decides to flee and when it actually flees, his speed was a complete waste. (As an added speed factoid: When using torps, slow and steady wins the race.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman
In fact, I pretty much build Explorer ships on the same line one might build an "escort" under. Their mission: To see the galaxy, meet new and interesting lifeforms, and then kill them.

To be fair, you have a different mission for your ships than I do for mine. My escorts are expendable shields and eyes. My explorers don't fit into my piracy design principle, but they cost about the same as my escorts, and die far far less often. (Think I lost one in my current game when it 'explored' a thriving pirate base). A speed of 40 keeps my escorts out of the wildlife's mouth, and is not so fast as to be uncatchable when the design gets copied. The only real worry I have is for my escorts is when they decide (wisely or not) to tangle with enemy fleets. At a cost of under 2k/ea I admit I might still lose one now and then, but it hardly breaks the bank, and the maintenance cost/ship is quite workable, it means I can have escorts everywhere, acting as my eyes and ears, harrying enemy merchants (well, the unarmed ones), and handy to bog down any enemy vessel smaller than a cruiser that wanders out alone.

The point is: The design still is effective, but does nothing to help the pirates that copy it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman
quote:

ORIGINAL: torrenal
The Frigate:...The goal is enough guns to survive a 3:1 fight.
This idea is mathematically flawed: You can't build a ship that can win a 3 on 1 fight against itself
I never said against itself (I suppose I should have specified: 3:1 fight against pirate escorts). There is also a difference in survive and win. Enough guns to survive means he beats on the other ships until they retreat, without also being forced to retreat himself. Not all that hard either, once the pirates start copying the 1-gun escorts. To be fair, I don't make large use of my frigates in direct anti-piracy actions. With their upped firepower and longer reach, they are who I go to to clear wildlife. If they beat on a pirate? Yay. If one gets caught in a 3-1 fight defending a mining station? Meh, the base and ship will both likely survive. But like the escorts I'm not going to lose them to the wildlife or the barbarians in meaningful quantities.
---
Like speed, more firepower is better.... to a point. You only need to be enough to defeat your enemy. Anything more is wasted. Anything more is money you could have spent in research, or in expanding your empire.
//Torrenal

(in reply to Fishman)
Post #: 19
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