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For Steam haters - 5/6/2010 8:58:33 PM   
martok


Posts: 807
Joined: 8/30/2004
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I'm surprised this hasn't been discussed here yet:


Civilization V to be paired with Steamworks


quote:



2K Games and Valve today announced an agreement to power all PC versions of the highly anticipated Sid Meier's Civilization V with many of Steamworks' features and offer a special Digital Deluxe Edition via Steam. Customers who pre-order the regular or Digital Deluxe editions of Sid Meier's Civilization V on Steam will be rewarded with a free map pack when the game launches in fall 2010.

Sid Meier's Civilization V players will enjoy the benefits of the Steamworks' features included in all PC versions, such as auto-updating, Steam Achievements, downloadable content, ability to access from any computer*, multiplayer matchmatching and more.

Sid Meier's Civilization V Digital Deluxe Edition will expand players' conquests with the new Babylonian civilization and their ruler, Nebuchadnezzar II (c. 630 - c. 561 B.C.). As King of Babylon, gamers will be able to expand their empire with advanced Babylonian Bowmen to rightfully earn the title of Nebuchadnezzar the Great. Sid Meier's Civilization V Digital Deluxe Edition will also include an in-depth "Behind the Scenes at Firaxis with Civilization V" video feature, as well as the game's epic soundtrack.

Gamers who pre-order any version of Sid Meier's Civilization V from Steam will receive the downloadable bonus content, Cradle of Civilization Map Pack: Mesopotamia for free when the game is available. The map pack will let players experience the traditional Western and Middle Eastern "Cradle of Civilization." The pack will include the Fertile Crescent with the Nile River valley to the west and extending east down the Tigris and Euphrates river valleys to the Persian Gulf. Leaders will be able to explore new terrain, cultures and conquests.

For those who can't wait for the immersive experience of Sid Meier's Civilization V, 2K Games is proud to offer a Steam-wide 75% off sale on all previous Civilization titles for a limited time beginning May 6, 2010.



Frak me....


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Post #: 1
RE: For Steam haters - 5/6/2010 8:59:43 PM   
Terminus


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Learn to live with it. It's the future. Step up or off, your choice, but stop complaining.

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Post #: 2
RE: For Steam haters - 5/6/2010 9:05:40 PM   
Peter Fisla


Posts: 788
Joined: 10/5/2001
From: Canada
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Recently I bought complete Civ 4 including Colonization without any DRM...so I will be playing that for a long time - don't need Civ 5 for now.

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 3
RE: For Steam haters - 5/6/2010 9:07:48 PM   
Bamilus


Posts: 265
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From: The Old Northwest
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I hate DRM as much as anyone else, but in over four years of using Steam I've yet to have any problems. This doesn't mean others don't have problems, I'm just glad I never have had bad experiences with Steam because it is a great program IMO.

If I'm reading it correctly, however, I think it is dumb if they are making it Steam-only. I know many people have a warranted aversion to Steam and it's a shame they don't give us Steam and non-Steam option (like most games).

(in reply to Peter Fisla)
Post #: 4
RE: For Steam haters - 5/6/2010 10:47:19 PM   
Rockhopper

 

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I actually liked Steam, before we moved out to the country in a house on an extensively wooded lot. 24k dialup puts quite the damper on purchasing games through Steam anymore.

However, I do travel on business several times a year, so that is the time I take my computer and the kids' computer and update things.

(in reply to Bamilus)
Post #: 5
RE: For Steam haters - 5/6/2010 10:51:38 PM   
martok


Posts: 807
Joined: 8/30/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

but stop complaining.

No, I don't think I will. I'll happily bitch about this sort of crap for as long as I have breath, thank you.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Bamilus

If I'm reading it correctly, however, I think it is dumb if they are making it Steam-only. I know many people have a warranted aversion to Steam and it's a shame they don't give us Steam and non-Steam option (like most games).


Exactly. It's that they've taken away the player/purchaser's right to choose (other than to simply not buy it, of course).

Also, it effectively prevents other digital download sites like Impulse and GamersGate from selling Civilization V (both of whom have specifically stated they won't sell games that incorporate Steam/Steamworks). So Valve essentially just got a monopoly on selling the digital version of Civ V.


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Post #: 6
RE: For Steam haters - 5/6/2010 10:57:56 PM   
NefariousKoel


Posts: 2920
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From: Murderous Missouri Scum
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Learn to live with it. It's the future. Step up or off, your choice, but stop complaining.



I'll continue to complain for the moment instead of bowing my head in defeat and toeing the company line. While Steam may not be as bad as Ubisoft's latest abortion of customer rights, I'm not going to raise the white flag just because Matrix' forum mierda told me to.

It helps get the point across that we're not buying this kind of crap they're selling. The only reason we'd have no choice is if everyone buckled like a belt - as you promote.

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 7
RE: For Steam haters - 5/6/2010 11:24:24 PM   
Yogi the Great


Posts: 1098
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From: Wisconsin
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Learn to live with it. It's the future. Step up or off, your choice, but stop complaining.


The old it's the future argument. It may be, but that doesn't make it right.

Of course I'm just an old fart who likes things the way they should be instead of the way we are told we have to do it. So you can feel free discount anything I say.

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RE: For Steam haters - 5/6/2010 11:50:12 PM   
Greybriar


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Had Steam been an option instead of a requirement, I would have purchased Civ5. I guess there are just too many sheeple in the world to expect that to happen.

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Post #: 9
RE: For Steam haters - 5/7/2010 12:22:50 AM   
V22 Osprey


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As much as I like Steam(I've never had any technical problems with it, plus I can connect with friends), this is really getting out of hand. I don't mind steam for Valve games, but I don't want EVERY game I own having Steam. Someone stop this madness! Steam sounds like some Evil plot to take over the world....and valve is sure doing a good job.

< Message edited by V22 Osprey -- 5/7/2010 12:23:32 AM >


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Post #: 10
RE: For Steam haters - 5/7/2010 3:29:37 AM   
NefariousKoel


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From: Murderous Missouri Scum
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quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey

As much as I like Steam(I've never had any technical problems with it, plus I can connect with friends), this is really getting out of hand. I don't mind steam for Valve games, but I don't want EVERY game I own having Steam. Someone stop this madness! Steam sounds like some Evil plot to take over the world....and valve is sure doing a good job.



Even more so than the rest of the DRM software companies, Steam has quite an intra-company sales crew. It's the same thing you see on alarmist local evening news advertisements: "a new study finds that such and such can cause death for 1 in 5 children. Can yours be affected? Don't miss the 8 o'clock news to find out!". Instead, they're selling them software that'll prevent fictional "lost sales" and telling them they'll make more money if they give them money to use their software which has absolutely nothing to increase the value of the original software which is the reason for the customer's purchase. It actually devalues it for some. Set 'em up with fear and paranoia, knock 'em down with your magic cure. It's got scam written all over it.

These same companies then proceed to try and gift wrap a turd by telling you all the wonderful advantages of it. I'm always fond of hearing "unlimited installs" as one as if it's some great and wondrous benefit they've given us. The software runs in the background and updates? Yeah, I'm sure glad I got a load of updated advertising blown on my face with it. Just read some propaganda and you'll see a feeding tube with sh*t being forced through it.


(in reply to V22 Osprey)
Post #: 11
RE: For Steam haters - 5/7/2010 6:51:11 AM   
JudgeDredd


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Wow. I think it's time to turn in and get the foil hats on!

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Post #: 12
RE: For Steam haters - 5/7/2010 9:27:50 AM   
D.Ilse


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never liked the Civ Games, too gamey for me vs something historical..same goes for age of empires.

but I like TW:Rome and TW:Medievel II..which are just as gamey unmodded..so I don't know why I hated Civ so much..I think my copy is a coaster now or somewhere.

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RE: For Steam haters - 5/7/2010 11:51:40 AM   
Yogi the Great


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From: Wisconsin
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NefariousKoel

These same companies then proceed to try and gift wrap a turd by telling you all the wonderful advantages of it.



Are we still talking steam or have we already moved on to politics?

< Message edited by Yogi the Great -- 5/7/2010 12:46:01 PM >

(in reply to NefariousKoel)
Post #: 14
RE: For Steam haters - 5/7/2010 1:16:37 PM   
Joram

 

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Martok, I think you or someone said it best in the Wargamer thread.  It's about choice.  I'm disappointed not because I don't like Steam, but because I'm not given the choice.  I'll probably wait the few months to a year when they change their mind or the price drops.

(in reply to Yogi the Great)
Post #: 15
RE: For Steam haters - 5/7/2010 1:25:06 PM   
jackx

 

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From: Germany
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Steam's a business, so why all the outrage about profit maximization? It's working exactly as intended, customers are meant to be screwed over for profit - no different from grocery shopping, really. Okay, maybe a bit different, you can hold up the grocery store if you get really bitter about letting them screw with you, whereas with Steam all you do is get to vent your anger online... ;)

The only reason to be upset about Steam is when you need it, and that's a deliberate choice on your part, so I don't get the whole indignation about "having to use Steam"...  unless we're all suddenly so weak-willed that we absolutely depend on playing a certain, 100% non-essential for anything, game.

Getting kicked while you're down sucks, but is to be expected, as there's really no better time to do it, but in this case, it seems people are lying down voluntarily, and then complain about the kicks...





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RE: For Steam haters - 5/7/2010 3:59:36 PM   
sysrkm


Posts: 112
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From: Fairchild, TX USA
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Hi folks,

Personally, it does not matter to me if games go to Steam or not. In some cases, Steam would be a GODSEND compared to how some game companies do their DC and DRM (E FRAKKING A are you listening to me, you greedy b@stards!) and not to mention names (E FRAKKING A!) but EA really hosed the Battlefield 2142 game that I really liked to play with my sons.

So, if Steam wants to stick their nose in EA's bidness and not make it annoying as heck to update and purchase new content, more power to them.

Oh, and Sid, when we gonna get that Alpha Centauri update, you frakking so and so....

soapboxmode=off

Rob

(in reply to martok)
Post #: 17
RE: For Steam haters - 5/7/2010 4:04:53 PM   
Joe Black

 

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Joined: 10/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla

Recently I bought complete Civ 4 including Colonization without any DRM...so I will be playing that for a long time - don't need Civ 5 for now.


You are really lucky. In the UK the same package (minus colonisation) called Civilisation Complete funnily enough, comes with Securom (retail or download). Hence no Civ for me.

How do I buy the US version? I love this game but will not put Securom back on the PC.

Oh, no CIV 5 for me. Not Steam DRM, just had an enlightening experience with my Steam account (see other thread).

(in reply to Peter Fisla)
Post #: 18
RE: For Steam haters - 5/7/2010 4:59:09 PM   
NefariousKoel


Posts: 2920
Joined: 7/23/2002
From: Murderous Missouri Scum
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Wow. I think it's time to turn in and get the foil hats on!


I may be nutty as squirrel turds on the subject of increasingly draconian DRM, but I've had four separate instances of DRM-related headaches over the past decade that have increasingly turned me into a frothing, angry gamer. The digital rights issue needs to be pressed in the courts for more definitive and updated copyright issues in relation to customer's rights. When companies think they can write whatever the hell they want into an EULA and expect it to be law, they're completely wrong. Note the company that entered a clause about owning the customer's soul on the game they released April 1st as a joke. That's a good indicator of how ridiculous these schemes of refusing ownership to the purchaser really are.

I could give up and deal with it like many do, but I've been so pissed about it in the past that I'm not giving up the fight. Seeing people often post about their issues with what they originally thought was "no big deal" makes me think that the tide will turn on them eventually.

Here's to hoping all the DRM companies out there take a nosedive like Starfarce did.

(in reply to JudgeDredd)
Post #: 19
RE: For Steam haters - 5/7/2010 5:53:59 PM   
JudgeDredd


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From: Scotland
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My posts was obviously tongue in cheek...

I agree though. I would love all DRM to disappear. Unfortunately, I'm not strong willed enough to NOT buy that game I would love to play because it's got x,y or z DRM on it.

Hell, I even gave in and bought Black Shark with it's Starforce DRM...after the headaches that system caused me. I did say for some time after my problem with Starforce that I would never ever buy another Starforce enabled game. I stayed away from Black Shark for about 6 mnths before I finally caved after waiting, reading and hearing no-one was having problems with the Starforce version on it.

I'm just a game whore...can't help myself.

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I AM the Law!

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Post #: 20
RE: For Steam haters - 5/7/2010 6:06:06 PM   
Dave Briggs


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I haven't been buying many computer games lately and the few I have bought didn't have any type of copyright protection other than a serial number requirement, so I'm a bit in the dark about this subject. Could some one please explain to me what DRM is and the negative aspects of it. I have no idea what Steam is. I'd just like to know in case I ever do think about buying a game that incorporates this. Thanks.

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RE: For Steam haters - 5/7/2010 6:11:33 PM   
GrumpyMel

 

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I've bought a couple things through STEAM and it's worked ok for me. However, I really like the option of NOT HAVING to go through it if I don't want to do so.

As a consumer, I demand choice....if a vendor won't give it to me...then there is a good chance he'll do without my business. I haven't decided about Civ5 yet...but this is definately a strike against.

Once again...makes me appreciate Matrix Games...the only thing one has ever required of me is to enter a seriel number for my purchase.... which is completely reasonable in my book.

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Post #: 22
RE: For Steam haters - 5/7/2010 7:02:36 PM   
Joe Black

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave Briggs

I haven't been buying many computer games lately and the few I have bought didn't have any type of copyright protection other than a serial number requirement, so I'm a bit in the dark about this subject. Could some one please explain to me what DRM is and the negative aspects of it. I have no idea what Steam is. I'd just like to know in case I ever do think about buying a game that incorporates this. Thanks.


DRM in itself is not necessarily a bad or negative thing. It is the implementation of DRM that can and does have a negative impact upon the gaming community, in my opinion.

DRM is a method of attempting to protect your software from being copied and distributed illegally and therefore losing sales. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion. But like all things aimed with good intentions, you end up with the abuse of power that DRM brings to the companies.

Serial registration that does not involve installing anything on your PC is reasonable DRM that causes no harm to your PC and is low on the PITA scale.

DRM that install low level drivers on your system, often without asking is the worst. It can open up holes for viruses, crash your system and in some people's opinion damage your hardware. Don't be fooled if you have a serial registration only with this DRM. It will still install itself on your PC. Securom, Tages, Starforce, are examples of this. My experience is my system is not as stable with this on it. Medium on the PITA scale raising to high.

These DRM's are often accompanied by install limits, phone home to play, or even being connected to their server all the time to play. Not very customer friendly. Games like Bioshock 2 is an example of this (and the Sub game?). Very high on the PITA scale.

STEAM. You can play offline with this, but you need to set it up. You do need to install the steam software but I have never found it to be a problem like the low level drivers (correct me, anyone who knows different). Can also come packaged with any of the DRM just above. It does have a unique restriction in that you have to have an account with them and they can disable that account and therefore take all those games you purchased away from you in the blink of an eye. Low PITA can become huge PITA in the blink of an eye.

Dragon Age and Mass Effect 2 DRM. Haven't found any low level drivers, system has not been effected as far as I can tell, all very stable. Low on PITA scale plus love the DLC and it is quite cheap. I know it is EA but this seems to be alright and I have no issues with it. Does not need an internet connection to play. They also removed the DLC check that made items disappear if you failed to contact server on load. EA listening? I am still on the fence....

For me, it is what the companies do with the DRM that is the problem, not necessarily the DRM.

I have taken the policy of not allowing any of the low level driver DRM on my system. My system has gone from buggy and odd crashes to stable and all the games on it play without issues (including Dragon Age and Mass Effect 2).


Hope this helps, sorry if it's a bit long.

< Message edited by Joe Black -- 5/7/2010 7:05:51 PM >

(in reply to Dave Briggs)
Post #: 23
RE: For Steam haters - 5/7/2010 7:58:27 PM   
Dave Briggs


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Thanks Joe. That helps answer my question. In most cases are you given ample warning before purchasing a game with intrusive DRM?

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Post #: 24
RE: For Steam haters - 5/7/2010 8:55:27 PM   
NefariousKoel


Posts: 2920
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From: Murderous Missouri Scum
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave Briggs

Thanks Joe. That helps answer my question. In most cases are you given ample warning before purchasing a game with intrusive DRM?


It's required to be on the package, by law, in the US. It's most often alluded to in the form of "requires internet connection to play" in the small lettering somewhere. That's for the ones that require online activation (often with limited amount of installs allowed at one time), or as some of the latest nastiness has - constant internet connection so that it will regularly check with the developer's server.

Steam is one that has an online requirement at least to install (yes, that includes only single-player). Some games on it can be played in "offline mode" after it's been installed & registered to your Steam account. A few you can't. It can also come with a second set of DRM from the rainblow of colors available. Some games on Steam have issues when you try to use mods for it.

Some of the problems I have with Steam specifically:

1) The game doesn't fully belong to you.
As mentioned, you can have your account locked, hacked, or other similar SNAFUs. You are not allowed to actually own a physical backup yourself that you can install without it. You must download the game from Steam each time you want to install it. They basically own the game and allow you to install it.

2) You're at the mercy of Steam's infrastructure:
Server problems? A new patch gets automatically installed on your Steam game and now you can't play your saved game or mod that you were playing last night because the patch made them incompatible? Bad install or download? Good luck getting it sorted out in a timely fashion. These are a couple examples. A few years down the road.. who's to say Steam will still support that game?

3) Not resaleable:
This kinda goes along with #1. You have an account with Steam and all your games are tied to it. If you bought a new game and didn't like it at all, too bad. You can't recoup some money and sell it to a friend unless you give them your whole account, which is likely an account-locking offense if Steam finds out about a change of account ownership or sharing. Quite a few people believe that preventing the secondary resale market for games is the main reason such crazy DRM software is being used.

4)Steam client runs in background:
Yes, even in offline mode, Steam still runs on your PC. It causes security holes on the internet but that's not my biggest issue. I don't like advertising software that uses computer resources and internet bandwidth needlessly running when I don't want it to. Companies that hide their software, still running, have always rankled me and Steam uses just such questionable practices. There's a reason people wipe spyware off their computers and now Steam requires theirs to be on it.

I'm sure I have more but I'm attempting to keep this relatively short. Likely fail.

These points far outweigh any "positive" points that Steam and Steambois like to point out. Such as:
*"I don't have to keep track of disks or put them in the drive. No limited amount of installations. It automatically downloads and installs new patches. It has multiplayer built in."*
Such "bonuses" are present in games from companies with reasonable DRM (like Matrix) today without treating their customers like criminals.

Which is the icing on the cake. I feel insulted by having Big Brother spying on me like I'm a felon. Perhaps they should just hand out lo-jacks and corresponding house arrest with each purchase.


EDIT: and JD, I knew you weren't being wholly serious, I just can't stop myself from ranting on this. Being a game addicted whore like I am, it makes it all the more frustrating when I've made a vow not to purchase such stuff on principle. So I vent and stick to my guns.

< Message edited by NefariousKoel -- 5/7/2010 8:58:49 PM >

(in reply to Dave Briggs)
Post #: 25
RE: For Steam haters - 5/7/2010 9:31:29 PM   
Lützow


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From: Germany
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Just accomplished a fresh Windows setup. No way I would install Steam here.

Aside of this, I condemn Steam as matter of principle, because this system denies my rights on something I legally acquired. Regarding my dwindling interest in gaming it's no big forgoing for me to not purchase these products and I dislike companies who care more about shareholders than stakeholders anyway.

Fortunately I'm not so much in CiV. Last Firaxis game I actually played for a longer time was Alpha Centauri.

(in reply to Dave Briggs)
Post #: 26
RE: For Steam haters - 5/7/2010 10:20:14 PM   
Titanwarrior89


Posts: 3086
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From: arkansas
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Steam,elicense and the others-I don't rent. New is not always better. What happens if the company goes belly up(even gamers gate)? Good by games. If this is the future I'll just pull my board games out. Did it for 20-25 years so another 10 or so won't kill me.

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Post #: 27
RE: For Steam haters - 5/7/2010 10:55:50 PM   
Joe Black

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave Briggs

Thanks Joe. That helps answer my question. In most cases are you given ample warning before purchasing a game with intrusive DRM?


No problem, Dave.

In the UK, no.

Gamers gate do try to tell you what DRM is on the game but not always. I ussually carry out a bit of research to make sure. Can be a pain but it is a far smaller pain than installing the game and realising you have just installed the DRM as well.

I have to say I have become so hard nosed about it now, that if I can't be sure of the DRM state of a game, then I leave it. I figure that all good games have a fair chance of ending up on GOG in the future, and I can wait. Not like I can't pick up some excellent games from Matrix or Slitherine to keep me busy

< Message edited by Joe Black -- 5/7/2010 10:56:42 PM >

(in reply to Dave Briggs)
Post #: 28
RE: For Steam haters - 5/8/2010 1:28:49 PM   
Yogi the Great


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From: Wisconsin
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Is anyone concerned that as I write this there are more posts on the non steam haters thread then this one?

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Post #: 29
RE: For Steam haters - 5/8/2010 1:46:43 PM   
MajFrankBurns

 

Posts: 344
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No Yogi as steam haters don't have to post to puff themselves or their agenda up.

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Post #: 30
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