Flak Guns

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JWE
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Flak Guns

Post by JWE »

ORIGINAL: witpqs
ORIGINAL: Bradley7735
ORIGINAL: che200
Check out the stats for IJN 25mm AA and 100mm AA compare it to 40mm AA and 5inch 38.
25mm type 96 AA gun Range 4 Acc 51 Pen 15 Effect 18
20mm Oerlikon AA gun Range 4 Acc 85 Pen 10 Effect 15
40mm Bofors AA gun Range 6 Acc 103 Pen 15 Effect 20


12.7cm/40 T89 AA Range 16 Acc 55 Pen 45 Effect 51
5in/38 mk 12 Range 18 Acc 62 pen 62 effect 55

I don't know if these values are historically accurate. The Japanese devices are less in Accuracy, but all other stats are comparable to the Allied devices. The 12.7cm and 5in stats are very comparable. If this was historic, then so be. I don't know enough about guns to know if the stats accurately model history.
Looking at the stats you posted, I disagree with the statement I put in italics. .....

Ok, so starting it out, here's something worth considering.
Few things you should understand in order to make analysis meaningful;

The data fields in the Device file are just that – data fields. It was Grigsby tradition to give them the names they have, but the names only tell 10% of the story. Long story short, bottom line, Acc ISN’T accuracy. Pen is NOT always penetration, and a Value (i.e., Bofors acc=”103”) is NOT really, and certainly NOT always, that value.

Devices are accessed according to Type (00 = aircraft cannon, 12 = AA Gun, 17 = DP Gun, 18 = Naval Gun, etc..). All of the different Device types all have the same data fields, all in the same file position, and all identified to the engine by the same name (header). At least four different combat algorithms use the identical data fields, but process them in completely different ways, at completely different times during turn execution.

So, a plane shooting at a plane with a 20mm might have its gun specs at acc=16, pen=3, eff=4, while a ship shooting at a plane with a 20mm may have its gun specs at acc=85, pen=20, eff=15. Obviously, the plane will have the same Armor and Durability numbers in both cases. So that same ship must also shoot at other ships, which have totally different Armor and Durability numbers, with the same ship 20mm, having acc=85, pen=20, eff=15. Now take that thought and apply it to DP Guns that are expected to function as anti-ship Naval Rifles, as well as perform in AA mode.

Point is that the “numbers” get processed differently in accord with, at least, four combat mode algorithms. Sometimes they get divided by 10, sometimes they get multiplied by a decreasing fraction, sometimes they are taken raw, but get a “period” hit according to nationality. Flak from the US increases, by year, and eventually gets to where they have radar directors, VT fuzes, electric/hydraulic mounts, yadda, yadda. So some of the data values represent the “final” capability of a gun – meanwhile the hard code is dialing it down in accord with a ‘yearly’ program (i.e., If 1942, And If US, multiply Num by 0.6). There’s specific and different [IF_YEAR == **, THEN ..] statements for each and every nationality. So what you see is NOT what you get.
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witpqs
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RE: Flak Guns

Post by witpqs »

Regarding the dialing down/up for period+nationality, what kind of guns get dialed down/up, how much, and when (meaning in what periods)?

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khyberbill
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RE: Flak Guns

Post by khyberbill »

JWE, thanks for shedding some light into murky corners.
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JWE
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RE: Flak Guns

Post by JWE »

ORIGINAL: witpqs
Regarding the dialing down/up for period+nationality, what kind of guns get dialed down/up, how much, and when (meaning in what periods)?
It works a lot like ASW. The kinds of Devices affected are those Devices the code recognizes as appropriate for AAA fire. When is a simple 42, 43, 44, 45 question. How much is an open question - lots of code changes in lots of places in response to lots of complaints, so who knows what happened to this part.
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RE: Flak Guns

Post by John Lansford »

It still doesn't make a lot of sense for the base comparison between the 25mm and 40mm AA guns to show the Japanese weapon to have similar penetration and effect values, not when the 25mm was considered a mediocre weapon.
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witpqs
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RE: Flak Guns

Post by witpqs »

The penetration and effect are not really so important as the range and the accuracy. How many times the plane gets hit and how far away matter a great deal.
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Bradley7735
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RE: Flak Guns

Post by Bradley7735 »

ORIGINAL: witpqs

The penetration and effect are not really so important as the range and the accuracy. How many times the plane gets hit and how far away matter a great deal.

Quantity plays a role as well. If there's 2 25mm for every 1 40mm, then things start to even out a bit. Look at some of the capital ships. There's massive numbers of 25mm on them. (later in the war, obviously.)

It's definitely hard to quantify. IJN has 2 general sizes. 25mm and 12.7cm. Allies have 3. 20mm, 40mm and 5/38in. Yes, there's lots of 25mm, but there's lots of 20mm as well as some 40mm on Allied ships.

I'm just glad that it's getting looked at. You guys (and I mean all of the WITP devs) are the best at figuring this stuff out.
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witpqs
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RE: Flak Guns

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

ORIGINAL: witpqs

The penetration and effect are not really so important as the range and the accuracy. How many times the plane gets hit and how far away matter a great deal.

Quantity plays a role as well. If there's 2 25mm for every 1 40mm, then things start to even out a bit. Look at some of the capital ships. There's massive numbers of 25mm on them. (later in the war, obviously.)

Oh sure - I was responding on the gun for gun comparison. The ships had what guns they had. As I see it the trick is to make each gun perform in the engine like it did in real life, which obviously includes things outside the gun too (such as radar direction, proximity fuses, and so on) as John pointed out. Glad those adjustments are built in to the engine.

As far as quantity versus quality - as you say it's not so easy at all. Just taking the simple example of those particular 25's and 40's, the 40's have 50% longer range. So having more 25's might mean you have as good a chance to stop the attacker, but only when it's too late!
Dili
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RE: Flak Guns

Post by Dili »

It still doesn't make a lot of sense for the base comparison between the 25mm and 40mm AA guns to show the Japanese weapon to have similar penetration and effect values, not when the 25mm was considered a mediocre weapon.

Depends how game engine works, a bigger gun might have in IRL less penetration and effect than a smaller gun if its round fragments are smaller, of course the chances of a fragment hit increases with them being smaller up to a point, so accuracy should increase. A smaller caliber typically should do more damage if hit than a bigger round fragment. It is the fact that there are several round fragments that hit the plane that makes the bigger round cumulatively making more damage. You can make that more cumulative damage belong to accuracy or effect. Now it depends how game engine works and that only dev's know.
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Sardaukar
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RE: Flak Guns

Post by Sardaukar »

I posted in other thread that 40mm has 2.5 to 84 times bigger explosive filler, depending on the round.

While it's data issue (that can be edited) and not Game Engine issue, I think effect of 40mm should be more than 11% over 25mm.

http://www.hnsa.org/doc/boforstm252/part4a.htm#pg252 gives explosive filler of 40mm as 0.05 lb - 0.168 lb (HE-T), projectile weight as fired 1.93 - 2.06 lbs.

http://www.combinedfleet.com/25_60.htm gives weight of 25 mm projectile as fired 0.6 lbs.

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNJAP_25mm-60_mg.htm gives explosive filler in latter as 0.02 lbs

So, shouldn't the 40 mm have more effect than 11% over 25mm? Explosive filler is 2.5 to 84 time bigger in 40mm HE-T, depending on model.


Plus projectile is overall over 3 times heavier.

On the other hand, I think for example range is just fine (4 vs 6). Accuracy is bit difficult issue, but looks reasonable to me (if it's like in WitP, taking account ROF & accuracy combined).
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RE: Flak Guns

Post by treespider »

FWIW...Vis-a-vis the 25mm vs 40mm discussion...YOU CANNOT LOOK AT ONE DATA POINT.

In the miniatures game Command at Sea - designed by the same folks who brought you Harpoon the 25mm and 40mm have the following stats.

Type 96 25mm/60
Range - 1.4 nm
ROF = 220
# of rds to kill = 445.7
# of barrels to
equal a Quad 40mm = 8.7

Mk1-3 40mm/60
Range = 1.9nm
ROF = 160
# of rds to kill = 324.1
# of barrels to
equal a Quad 40mm = 4.1


But as JWE has pointed out the weapon systems in AE are sliced, diced and pureed through several different algorythms depending on how they are used...

So just because the Effects in AE are relatively equal .....the Accuracy of the 40mm is roughly twice that of the 25mm in AE ....when IRL the 25mm had a higher ROF....so perhaps because of the higher ACC in AE for the 40mm, the Effect gets enhanced depending on the algorythm.
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Sardaukar
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RE: Flak Guns

Post by Sardaukar »

That makes it about impossible to make adjustments, since we do not know how algorithms work. [:(]
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RE: Flak Guns

Post by JuanG »

The effect values for light AA like the 25mm do not, as far as I know, represent 'single rounds' as is the case for larger weapons, but rather a certain number of rounds.

Thus, even though the 25mm has the same effect as the 40mm, its 'throw weight' of Effect x Accuracy is significantly less, as it should be, and the reason why the effect is the same is that one 25mm 'shot' includes more projectiles than one 40mm 'shot', and the ROFs (accuracy) are adjusted to reflect this.


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On an entirely different note, Ill repost this from the PreCAP Flak thread since its also relevent here;

I think something worth pointing out before people go blaming the devices is that in the standard scenarios, almost all the IJN DDs (including all the new ones post Fubuki II) are DP capable, whereas this was definately not the case historically (or rather, they were capable of very limited DP fire, much like every major IJN weapon including the BB main guns).

This came up in John 3rds Reluctant Admiral scenario design thread, and has come up before in my scenario threads. I pointed this out shortly after the game was first released in the Naval Issues thread, but as things were left as they were, I assumed that the decision to leave things this way was a concious one.

While individually these DDs arent extremely dangerous to aircraft, its not hard to imagine several of these in a TF helping to skew things in the direction seen here. In light of this, if it was a design decision to leave these ships with DP weaponry, it might be a decision worth reconsidering.


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ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

That makes it about impossible to make adjustments, since we do not know how algorithms work. [:(]

Well, trial and error always works, but I see where you're coming from. It would be much appreciated if we could get some idea of what these adjustments are and when they take effect.
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RE: Flak Guns

Post by Sardaukar »

ORIGINAL: JuanG

The effect values for light AA like the 25mm do not, as far as I know, represent 'single rounds' as is the case for larger weapons, but rather a certain number of rounds.

Thus, even though the 25mm has the same effect as the 40mm, its 'throw weight' of Effect x Accuracy is significantly less, as it should be, and the reason why the effect is the same is that one 25mm 'shot' includes more projectiles than one 40mm 'shot', and the ROFs (accuracy) are adjusted to reflect this.

That makes sense. But, I think I might still up the 40mm a bit based on lethality difference between rounds. 40mm hit was very serious thing even to 2-engine plane, and usually fatal to 1-engine plane. 25mm much less so.
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RE: Flak Guns

Post by JuanG »

Personally, I would be inclined to reduce the accuracy of the 25mm, especially for twin and triple mounts, which were notoriously slow tracking, rather than increase the 40mm effect.

This, coupled with corrections to ship experience ratings, might bring things more inline with history.

Im going to run some tests in a sandbox area this week to get some numbers to go by.
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RE: Flak Guns

Post by Sardaukar »

ORIGINAL: JuanG

Personally, I would be inclined to reduce the accuracy of the 25mm, especially for twin and triple mounts, which were notoriously slow tracking, rather than increase the 40mm effect.

This, coupled with corrections to ship experience ratings, might bring things more inline with history.

Im going to run some tests in a sandbox area this week to get some numbers to go by.

Good point, might work.
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Bradley7735
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RE: Flak Guns

Post by Bradley7735 »

ORIGINAL: JuanG

Personally, I would be inclined to reduce the accuracy of the 25mm, especially for twin and triple mounts, which were notoriously slow tracking, rather than increase the 40mm effect.

This, coupled with corrections to ship experience ratings, might bring things more inline with history.

Im going to run some tests in a sandbox area this week to get some numbers to go by.

Since I'm no gun expert, my opinon might not matter. But, I would be inclined to reduce the effectiveness (whether accuracy, effect, pen, etc) of guns than to increase the effectiveness. I think that the correct number of IJN planes are being destroyed by flak. And I think that too many USN planes are being destroyed by flak. I'd rather see the game less destructive (which I think is historical) than to see it become more destructive. (ie, reduce IJN flak and not increase USN flak.)

Anyway, it's my opinion and I don't have anything more than "gut feel" to back up my statement above.
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JuanG
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RE: Flak Guns

Post by JuanG »

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

ORIGINAL: JuanG

Personally, I would be inclined to reduce the accuracy of the 25mm, especially for twin and triple mounts, which were notoriously slow tracking, rather than increase the 40mm effect.

This, coupled with corrections to ship experience ratings, might bring things more inline with history.

Im going to run some tests in a sandbox area this week to get some numbers to go by.

Since I'm no gun expert, my opinon might not matter. But, I would be inclined to reduce the effectiveness (whether accuracy, effect, pen, etc) of guns than to increase the effectiveness. I think that the correct number of IJN planes are being destroyed by flak. And I think that too many USN planes are being destroyed by flak. I'd rather see the game less destructive (which I think is historical) than to see it become more destructive. (ie, reduce IJN flak and not increase USN flak.)

Anyway, it's my opinion and I don't have anything more than "gut feel" to back up my statement above.

Yes, that matches what I'm seeing too. Another thing that might be worth testing is reducing the range of the 25mm slightly, and seeing if this cuts down on the kill rate.

But I dont think its only the Light AA thats the problem - the presence of DP weapons on almost all the IJN DD's adds up very quickly in a large CVTF, possibly accounting for as much as a third of the TFs AA value. Cutting the majority of this out might mean entirely different results.
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RE: Flak Guns

Post by Sardaukar »

Cutting effect/range of 25mm (but I think range is spot on, just don't know how algorithms use it...) and removing DP guns from IJN DDs would probably go long way to "restore historical abilities". That is, if there is not something else hidden "under the hood". [:'(]
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JWE
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RE: Flak Guns

Post by JWE »

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar
Cutting effect/range of 25mm (but I think range is spot on, just don't know how algorithms use it...) and removing DP guns from IJN DDs would probably go long way to "restore historical abilities". That is, if there is not something else hidden "under the hood". [:'(]
Quick note - engine doesn't use Range in AAA combat mode, uses Ceiling. Range is used for surface combat.

Quick comment - pretty sure the 12.7cm gun types are correctly noted in the Device file (Nav Gun or DP Gun). Can easily edit the Class file to put the right gun on the right DDs; NavWeaps has a lovely list of what classes got what http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNJAP_5-50_3ns.htm

A patch with a data update (if it ever happens) will include this, but will require a restart, so ya'll may as well just do the edits your own selves and restart - kinda get a jump on it.
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