Allies best fighter, the B24

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Allies best fighter, the B24

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> The War Room >> Allies best fighter, the B24

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Allies best fighter, the B24 - 4/11/2010 4:46:02 PM

Dora09

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My opponent just joked that he uses B24s to escort his fighters. It is funny because it is true. Our game has reached 1944 and I want to start by giving a shout out to the N1K1 which has been a beast so far despite having only two groups right now. I have had them active for about two months now and have done very well against p47 and Corsairs. They simply maul Hellcats, if you are a Japanese player, Build them!

In two months I have lost maybe 5 N1K1s to enemy fighters. Last turn I lost 15 N1K1s to to a raid by 6 unescorted B24s. What is worse is that I didn't kill a single B24. I have noticed that the 4es are a little too good, there is no need to escort them even when in small numbers. I don't have problem with them being hard to shoot down, but outright killing droves of my best pilots in my best planes seems a little outrageous. I am not proposing any change or house rule. I just had to vent and see if I am the only one experiencing these heartbreaking senerios. This effect is magnified at night too. At night my fighters can't see the 4es but the gunners in the 4es can see my fighters just fine.

Post #: 1

RE: Allies best fighter, the B24 - 4/11/2010 5:02:42 PM

cap_and_gown

Posts: 2691
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From: Virginia, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dora09

My opponent just joked that he uses B24s to escort his fighters. It is funny because it is true. Our game has reached 1944 and I want to start by giving a shout out to the N1K1 which has been a beast so far despite having only two groups right now. I have had them active for about two months now and have done very well against p47 and Corsairs. They simply maul Hellcats, if you are a Japanese player, Build them!

In two months I have lost maybe 5 N1K1s to enemy fighters. Last turn I lost 15 N1K1s to to a raid by 6 unescorted B24s. What is worse is that I didn't kill a single B24. I have noticed that the 4es are a little too good, there is no need to escort them even when in small numbers. I don't have problem with them being hard to shoot down, but outright killing droves of my best pilots in my best planes seems a little outrageous. I am not proposing any change or house rule. I just had to vent and see if I am the only one experiencing these heartbreaking senerios. This effect is magnified at night too. At night my fighters can't see the 4es but the gunners in the 4es can see my fighters just fine.

Ouch. This is what I have to look forward to?

Is this just a one off result? Maybe you were just unlucky that turn.

(in reply to Dora09)

Post #: 2

RE: Allies best fighter, the B24 - 4/11/2010 5:10:31 PM

Dora09

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It has happened many times before with lesser aircraft like Ki44s. Oddly I have had the best results with zeros. The worst results are at night. Watch the combat replay, most times your aircraft will not even get a shot off. It is very demoralizing to see 40 fighters wither in the face of a hand full of bombers, it looks more like an infantry charge against MGs in WWI than air combat.

(in reply to cap_and_gown)

Post #: 3

RE: Allies best fighter, the B24 - 4/11/2010 6:02:26 PM

witpqs

Posts: 12436
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From: Argleton
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Yup, I'm manning my B-24's with fighter pilots!

(Just kidding.)

(in reply to Dora09)

Post #: 4

RE: Allies best fighter, the B24 - 4/11/2010 7:39:36 PM

Misconduct

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From: Cape Canaveral, Florida
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Surpised the n1k isn't beating the stuffing out of B24's and B17s, what are the exp of the pilots flying them?

I know the N1k was an awesome bomber interceptor fighter design, 4x20mm Ho 5 cannons with 900 rounds total, however that top speed is
what really killed it from being better then it is now, I would probably because of cheap aviation fuel, cause I know the Ki-84 was the best
fighter coming out of Japan late war, I remember seeing stats on it flying 430mph with over 100 octane fuel.

(in reply to witpqs)

Post #: 5

RE: Allies best fighter, the B24 - 4/11/2010 7:54:58 PM

SqzMyLemon

Posts: 2148
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From: Alberta, Canada
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I agree. I'm not ranting either, but I find my fighter units on CAP are being decimated by unescorted 4E bombers. The bombers have been more effective winning air superiority than any amount of Allied fighters have. It doesn't matter how many bombers there are, I just can't bring them down, while my fighters units get attritioned to the point of ineffectiveness. Often half of my interceptors don't get a shot off before being shot down or damaged. I think the worst case was 18 Oscar's intercepting four B17's, no bombers shot down to a combined five Oscars downed by direct fire or later as Ops losses. I truly dread when the Allies will have hundreds of these things.

(in reply to Dora09)

Post #: 6

RE: Allies best fighter, the B24 - 4/11/2010 9:03:53 PM

Dora09

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Surpised the n1k isn't beating the stuffing out of B24's and B17s, what are the exp of the pilots flying them?

Me too! I built them to be bomber destroyers. As for the pilot exp. Those are my finest groups, my two N1K1 groups have 85 and 82 ave EXP respectively. In real life the N1K1 was hampered by bad performance at high alt, and weak undercarriage. Strangely in AE the N1K1 has a max alt of 41000!

(in reply to Misconduct)

Post #: 7

RE: Allies best fighter, the B24 - 4/11/2010 10:13:15 PM

christenberryd

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It seems that the defensive fire ability of bombers is way overstated? The defensive fire could drive off attackers, but the small fighter moving in at +30 or +50 mph had the choice of getting in closer or breaking off. In the game ... the 4e bomber is like a flying tank. Another possible issue is how "odds" or numbers just don't seem to factor in to A-A combat. For example, 20 fighters would swarm 6 bombers and even further dilute their defensive fire (as well as just cause panic).

(in reply to Dora09)

Post #: 8

RE: Allies best fighter, the B24 - 4/11/2010 10:27:31 PM

mike scholl 1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dora09

My opponent just joked that he uses B24s to escort his fighters. It is funny because it is true. Our game has reached 1944 and I want to start by giving a shout out to the N1K1 which has been a beast so far despite having only two groups right now. I have had them active for about two months now and have done very well against p47 and Corsairs. They simply maul Hellcats, if you are a Japanese player, Build them!

In two months I have lost maybe 5 N1K1s to enemy fighters. Last turn I lost 15 N1K1s to to a raid by 6 unescorted B24s. What is worse is that I didn't kill a single B24. I have noticed that the 4es are a little too good, there is no need to escort them even when in small numbers. I don't have problem with them being hard to shoot down, but outright killing droves of my best pilots in my best planes seems a little outrageous. I am not proposing any change or house rule. I just had to vent and see if I am the only one experiencing these heartbreaking senerios. This effect is magnified at night too. At night my fighters can't see the 4es but the gunners in the 4es can see my fighters just fine.

The 4-engined bombers ARE probably too good at shooting down fighters..., but I don't notice you complaining about the idiotic results you seem to be getting against P-47's, F6F's, and F4U's. Maybe if the Allied Fighters were performing historically, your fighters wouldn't be getting to the bombers to be butchered. There is plenty of room for tweaking left in the programming.

(in reply to Dora09)

Post #: 9

RE: Allies best fighter, the B24 - 4/11/2010 10:37:05 PM

viberpol

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From: Gizycko, Poland, EU
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

I agree. I'm not ranting either, but I find my fighter units on CAP are being decimated by unescorted 4E bombers. The bombers have been more effective winning air superiority than any amount of Allied fighters have. It doesn't matter how many bombers there are, I just can't bring them down, while my fighters units get attritioned to the point of ineffectiveness. Often half of my interceptors don't get a shot off before being shot down or damaged. I think the worst case was 18 Oscar's intercepting four B17's, no bombers shot down to a combined five Oscars downed by direct fire or later as Ops losses. I truly dread when the Allies will have hundreds of these things.

Same here with my PBEM (September '42). Just can't find the way to send the unescorted bombers back home.
They eat all... Tojos, Zeroes... etc. some succes with Ki-45s, but JFBs have only 2-3 squadrons so early...
Actually, as it is now in AE, if I were the Allied side, I wouldn't bother with fighter sweep. Just send the heavies 2, 3 times sweeping. Very depressing.

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(in reply to SqzMyLemon)

Post #: 10

RE: Allies best fighter, the B24 - 4/12/2010 12:13:45 AM

cap_and_gown

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quote:

ORIGINAL: viberpol

quote:

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

I agree. I'm not ranting either, but I find my fighter units on CAP are being decimated by unescorted 4E bombers. The bombers have been more effective winning air superiority than any amount of Allied fighters have. It doesn't matter how many bombers there are, I just can't bring them down, while my fighters units get attritioned to the point of ineffectiveness. Often half of my interceptors don't get a shot off before being shot down or damaged. I think the worst case was 18 Oscar's intercepting four B17's, no bombers shot down to a combined five Oscars downed by direct fire or later as Ops losses. I truly dread when the Allies will have hundreds of these things.

Same here with my PBEM (September '42). Just can't find the way to send the unescorted bombers back home.
They eat all... Tojos, Zeroes... etc. some succes with Ki-45s, but JFBs have only 2-3 squadrons so early...
Actually, as it is now in AE, if I were the Allied side, I wouldn't bother with fighter sweep. Just send the heavies 2, 3 times sweeping. Very depressing.

My condolences to you and your country on the terrible tragedy. I was shocked to here how many high ranking government officials were killed. A sad day for Poland.

(in reply to viberpol)

Post #: 11

RE: Allies best fighter, the B24 - 4/12/2010 12:46:11 AM

Dora09

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I don't think my results are that idiotic. I have two groups of N1K1s filled with the most elite pilots I have. They should be doing well, the N1K1 was a great fighter. I'll still end up losing to attrition anyway. I have two good groups, my opponent has 100s of Hellcats, Corsairs and p47s. I swear, it seem the allied players won't be happy until every air battle is a landslide victory in their favor. Without the N1k1 i was suffering 10-1 losses every time I tried to defend a base because of the alt advantage of the allied planes.

Yes I am compalianing but I am not advocating any overall change, I am merely venting frustration.

(in reply to mike scholl 1)

Post #: 12

RE: Allies best fighter, the B24 - 4/12/2010 1:46:05 AM

Misconduct

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From: Cape Canaveral, Florida
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dora09

I don't think my results are that idiotic. I have two groups of N1K1s filled with the most elite pilots I have. They should be doing well, the N1K1 was a great fighter. I'll still end up losing to attrition anyway. I have two good groups, my opponent has 100s of Hellcats, Corsairs and p47s. I swear, it seem the allied players won't be happy until every air battle is a landslide victory in their favor. Without the N1k1 i was suffering 10-1 losses every time I tried to defend a base because of the alt advantage of the allied planes.

Yes I am compalianing but I am not advocating any overall change, I am merely venting frustration.

Not true really, I am a full allied player that hasn't even checked the Japanese side yet.
I believe the game is balanced in a realistic sense, for example the Zero should rule the skies till decent P38 pilots come out, which by then the Ki-61 was a balancing factor there. Going on further the Decline of Japanese experience does not mean there will be a total noob japanese pilots, I welcome a decent Japanese player to reserve his best units for Ki-84s and N1k's because in reality both planes went 1:1 with allied fighters like P51s, Hellcats, Corsairs.

my cents.

(in reply to Dora09)

Post #: 13

RE: Allies best fighter, the B24 - 4/12/2010 2:07:13 AM

freeboy

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just to confirm, the allied fighters are tough until they gain some experience, my tip over time came late in pbem.. orbably late 43, and onlythe jap naval arm is uber powerful BUT the 24's 29, still are great for breaking up air wings...

(in reply to Misconduct)

Post #: 14

RE: Allies best fighter, the B24 - 4/12/2010 2:10:56 AM

Dora09

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Yeah, I agree with you. Funny thing is that the Ki61 is absolutly terrible in AE. In WitP they were one of my better fighters, in AE they totally suck, I wish I had not built them.

(in reply to Misconduct)

Post #: 15

RE: Allies best fighter, the B24 - 4/12/2010 2:31:26 AM

bklooste

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Misconduct

Surpised the n1k isn't beating the stuffing out of B24's and B17s, what are the exp of the pilots flying them?

I remember seeing stats on it flying 430mph with over 100 octane fuel.

yes correct but there is a puzzle here as the fuel doesnt make that much different most Japanese planes had higher power to weight than allied planes yet go much slower. The 92 octane fuel would be about 5% less power ( since the engine wasnt designed to make the most of it) yet the plane gets 10% more speed ( which due to air resistance requires prob 30% more power) , yet planes like the Frank had the same power to weight as allied planes that flew much faster , i think the allies and Japan just measured speed differently :-) Maybe allied max speed is the max ground speed with wind gusts etc .

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RE: Allies best fighter, the B24 - 4/12/2010 2:34:46 AM

Misconduct

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From: Cape Canaveral, Florida
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dora09

Yeah, I agree with you. Funny thing is that the Ki61 is absolutly terrible in AE. In WitP they were one of my better fighters, in AE they totally suck, I wish I had not built them.

Yeah they are probably well underated in AE, Ki-61's were an Army fighter and did quite, they are pretty much better then any allied fighter except for P-38H, even then I believe a decent Ki-61 pilot can take a P-38 on even grounds in every attribute except climb rate and speed. Being most the war was fight with P39s and P40s/kittyhawks the Ki-61 should be a pretty dominating aircraft and I was figuring on fearing them when they started to arrive.

I guess the service rating was a problem, i read in a book while ago just how bout the japanese aviation mechanics were, for example if 3 planes were damaged, but enough parts could be spared to salvage 1 aircraft, they'd wait till parts came for all 3 rather then get 1 operational aircraft. However if the service rating was so horrible for the Japanese, I don't see how service rating is the same for allied players since american's were better mechanically in most planes except the corsair which had a nasty reputation for having problems mechanically. Proof of the american problem solving, after the Japanese pounded henderson with battleships, most the aircrafts were destroyed or damaged - however a certain officer in charge (forget the name) fabricated a TBM out of all the spare planes he had and some how managed to make it fly (im talking cutting off a wing from one aircraft, to put on other) to get 1 servicable aircraft in the air.

< Message edited by Misconduct -- 4/12/2010 2:36:42 AM >

(in reply to Dora09)

Post #: 17

RE: Allies best fighter, the B24 - 4/12/2010 8:56:56 AM

castor troy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cap_and_gown

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dora09

My opponent just joked that he uses B24s to escort his fighters. It is funny because it is true. Our game has reached 1944 and I want to start by giving a shout out to the N1K1 which has been a beast so far despite having only two groups right now. I have had them active for about two months now and have done very well against p47 and Corsairs. They simply maul Hellcats, if you are a Japanese player, Build them!

In two months I have lost maybe 5 N1K1s to enemy fighters. Last turn I lost 15 N1K1s to to a raid by 6 unescorted B24s. What is worse is that I didn't kill a single B24. I have noticed that the 4es are a little too good, there is no need to escort them even when in small numbers. I don't have problem with them being hard to shoot down, but outright killing droves of my best pilots in my best planes seems a little outrageous. I am not proposing any change or house rule. I just had to vent and see if I am the only one experiencing these heartbreaking senerios. This effect is magnified at night too. At night my fighters can't see the 4es but the gunners in the 4es can see my fighters just fine.

Ouch. This is what I have to look forward to? Is this just a one off result? Maybe you were just unlucky that turn.

He was very unlucky and his opponent very lucky in this example. But it�s true, as an Allied player I can confirm that it�s better for you to see a couple of dozen 4E bombers attacking alone vs a dozen enemy fighters than having two dozen escorts with them. Why? Because if you have escorts, the enemy Cap will shoot down some, some more, or all of your escorts while they wouldn�t take down more than one or two 4Es at best. Usually my 4Es achieve a 3:1 kill rate vs. first generation fighters. How 6 B-24 took out 15 Georges is beyond me.

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Post #: 18

RE: Allies best fighter, the B24 - 4/12/2010 2:31:18 PM

Q-Ball

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In my PBEM, I have 2 4E "Aces"; pilots with over 5 kills!!!!!!

Unescorted 4Es are difficult to shoot down. Even if comfronted with a swarm of high-experience Zeros and Oscars, the best you can do it damage 50%, with one or two crashing on the way home.

When I have escorted 4Es, the escort gets pummelled

It is better NOT to escort 4Es; they are impervious anyway

(in reply to castor troy)

Post #: 19

RE: Allies best fighter, the B24 - 4/13/2010 10:50:19 AM

FatR

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Maybe that's because I'm playing a mod with slightly buffed Japanese planes, but I don't see this 4E domination, at least during the day. My early B-17s and LB-30s die all too easily to Zeros. Maybe not many get shot down over the target, but operational losses can easily consume half of the monthly production in 1-2 raids.

(in reply to Q-Ball)

Post #: 20

RE: Allies best fighter, the B24 - 4/13/2010 11:48:46 AM

Miller

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
It is better NOT to escort 4Es; they are impervious anyway

Tell me about it. I think my opponent knows this but flies them with escorts to keep himself honest....

A 100 plane B24 raid will turn an airfield into rubble in one strike no matter how many fighters you have over the base.

The big issue is that the Allies can still get a damaged 4E flying within a day or two, despite their high service rating. My opponent can put up hundreds a day without any need for rest it seems, and they are killing me.

(in reply to Q-Ball)

Post #: 21

RE: Allies best fighter, the B24 - 4/13/2010 2:31:10 PM

witpqs

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

The big issue is that the Allies can still get a damaged 4E flying within a day or two, despite their high service rating. My opponent can put up hundreds a day without any need for rest it seems, and they are killing me.

While repair time varies, this is not my experience. Some might repair in a day or two, but most seem to take longer. And, if you get in heavy sustained combat you can wind up with a bunch of planes taking a week or longer.

You learn that if you want to keep up the tempo of attacks for some reason then you rotate squadrons. Perhaps that is some of what you are seeing?

(in reply to Miller)

Post #: 22

RE: Allies best fighter, the B24 - 4/13/2010 2:51:27 PM

SuluSea

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

The 4-engined bombers ARE probably too good at shooting down fighters..., but I don't notice you complaining about the idiotic results you seem to be getting against P-47's, F6F's, and F4U's. Maybe if the Allied Fighters were performing historically, your fighters wouldn't be getting to the bombers to be butchered. There is plenty of room for tweaking left in the programming.

My thoughts exactly!

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Post #: 23

RE: Allies best fighter, the B24 - 4/13/2010 4:17:38 PM

Dili

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So what change was made that made this possible?

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Post #: 24

RE: Allies best fighter, the B24 - 4/13/2010 5:27:05 PM

mike scholl 1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

The big issue is that the Allies can still get a damaged 4E flying within a day or two, despite their high service rating. My opponent can put up hundreds a day without any need for rest it seems, and they are killing me.

While repair time varies, this is not my experience.

Mine either. Even operating from a lvl 9 airfield with plenty of support and supply and the AF HQ in place I've always got a bunch down for servicing..., and I only fly them about 2 days in 5. Wonder what game "Miller" is playing?

(in reply to witpqs)

Post #: 25

RE: Allies best fighter, the B24 - 4/13/2010 5:52:48 PM

Nikademus

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Same one Joe and I are playing against Rob and Tony. They are pummeling us fairly consistantly with B-17's.

(in reply to mike scholl 1)

Post #: 26

RE: Allies best fighter, the B24 - 4/13/2010 7:31:41 PM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
It is better NOT to escort 4Es; they are impervious anyway

Tell me about it. I think my opponent knows this but flies them with escorts to keep himself honest....

A 100 plane B24 raid will turn an airfield into rubble in one strike no matter how many fighters you have over the base.

The big issue is that the Allies can still get a damaged 4E flying within a day or two, despite their high service rating. My opponent can put up hundreds a day without any need for rest it seems, and they are killing me.

Miller, I can assure you that this is not correct. It takes a very long time to get your 4Es up and running and I never have a full unit flying at one time. I would assume your opponent just has a surplus of planes because without even looking I know he has a lot of them damaged on the ground. This aspect of the game is working well and the Allied player has to rest his big planes. Even the P38 is a nightmare and I find it to be virtually useless in a situation where the Japanese hold air superiority. With a service rating of 3, I can use them about once every five days.

I am not too worried about late war Japanese planes. I think they are overpowered a little bit but all have very high service ratings to compensate.

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Post #: 27

RE: Allies best fighter, the B24 - 4/13/2010 7:44:27 PM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

The 4-engined bombers ARE probably too good at shooting down fighters..., but I don't notice you complaining about the idiotic results you seem to be getting against P-47's, F6F's, and F4U's. Maybe if the Allied Fighters were performing historically, your fighters wouldn't be getting to the bombers to be butchered. There is plenty of room for tweaking left in the programming.

My thoughts exactly!

I don't agree as Allied heavies were very well armed in respect to Japanese fighters. The Japanese were notoriously poor at shooting down heavy bombers. Part of the problem was that their fighter aircraft were not suited to the task, but another reason is that for all the talk about superbly trained crack pilots, Japanese fighter pilots were poorly trained in group formation tactics. This is partly due to the dogfighting mentality that was pervasive in all Air Forces before the war but also due to the lack of radios in most all Japanese fighters. Without radios, group tactics are pretty much out the window.

The Germans learned and proved that in order to shoot down bombers in any numbers you needed massive firepower, tough planes and strict group formation tactics. I don't think the Japanese were really ever to get their act together in this regard.

I do agree that I find Allied fighters somewhat lacking vs Japanese fighters. It really does seem like in the game that maneuver takes priority over speed and firepower and the Japanese fighters seem to be doing well.

However, it is too early in my game to tell if that is more of a function of experience so I withhold judgment.

As for my Allied mediums, I am having a hard time finding a use for them as they seem to get shot down fairly easily and there are not many of them to begin with. Perhaps it is because they need escort and I still rarely have enough fighters for escort work.

_____________________________

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Post #: 28

RE: Allies best fighter, the B24 - 4/13/2010 9:06:51 PM

Miller

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From: Ashington, England.
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For all I know he might have 200 serviceable 4E bombers and another 800 sitting damaged at any one time........I can only guess.

Of course 200 plane 4E raids were the norm every day in the pacific.......and before you Allied FBs start shouting, yes I know Jap ASW and Subs are overpowered etc etc, I dont want to start another arguement.

(in reply to crsutton)

Post #: 29

RE: Allies best fighter, the B24 - 4/13/2010 9:14:46 PM

crsutton

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From: Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

For all I know he might have 200 serviceable 4E bombers and another 800 sitting damaged at any one time........I can only guess.

Of course 200 plane 4E raids were the norm every day in the pacific.......and before you Allied FBs start shouting, yes I know Jap ASW and Subs are overpowered etc etc, I dont want to start another arguement.

I am afraid that it is the cross that you JFBs must bear....

_____________________________

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." Godwin's Law

(in reply to Miller)

Post #: 30