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Stay out of my system! Strategy that doesn't work

 
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Stay out of my system! Strategy that doesn't work - 4/10/2010 1:06:31 AM   
Malevolence


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I am about to test a new strategy to keep my trade partners out of my colonized systems, and hopefully then avoid cascading diplomatic problems.

My assumption is that my "friends" will not colonize a planet I put star base above. Is this true? I'm going to test this, but maybe you folks already know and I'm going to waste a new reset game.

My tentative plan is to create a star base that is size 53. It costs 344 to build and 180 to maintain. Pretty cheap I think. I will call it the "Claim Outpost". It is basically a tripwire. If my assumption is correct, my friends (or enemies) will be forced to destroy it before they can colonize a planet or moon... no matter the environmental type of planetoid.

If I want to mine the planet, etc. I will simply upgrade the base to something that is more useful.

What think you?

< Message edited by Malevolence -- 4/10/2010 1:25:30 AM >
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RE: Stay out of my system! Strategy - 4/10/2010 1:14:31 AM   
Tree Dog


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They'll still colonize it.

Your best bet is to wait a few days after the planet was colonized and buy the colony before they start getting angry at you, and more importantly, before it costs too much.

(in reply to Malevolence)
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RE: Stay out of my system! Strategy - 4/10/2010 1:25:23 AM   
Malevolence


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Thanks for saving me from testing it. Very much appreciated.

Mod please delete this post on the grounds of complete failure.


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RE: Stay out of my system! Strategy - 4/10/2010 1:26:45 AM   
thiosk


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I dont think colony purchasing is a strategy that will be around forever.

Its WAY to cheap to buy new colonies.

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Post #: 4
RE: Stay out of my system! Strategy - 4/10/2010 1:50:32 AM   
taltamir

 

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colony ships ALWAYS run from an armed opponent no matter how weak...

place a single cheap weapon on it... unfortunately you cannot build a station with only collectors and NO fuel or reactor... so you will have to put a reactor and fuel tank (mmm, or maybe you can get away with not having it have fuel?)

this should scare away enemy colony ships in theory.

the problem is... you said allies... i don't think it will fire on allies

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RE: Stay out of my system! Strategy - 4/10/2010 1:53:04 AM   
Malevolence


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quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

colony ships ALWAYS run from an armed opponent no matter how weak...

place a single cheap weapon on it... unfortunately you cannot build a station with only collectors and NO fuel or reactor... so you will have to put a reactor and fuel tank (mmm, or maybe you can get away with not having it have fuel?)

this should scare away enemy colony ships in theory.

the problem is... you said allies... i don't think it will fire on allies


Reactor, etc. are all required and included in my size 53 design. The laser would be a bit more, but as was said above, it's all about keeping your friends out really.

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RE: Stay out of my system! Strategy - 4/10/2010 1:56:37 AM   
taltamir

 

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well... i think i have seen my ships fire on people i have free trade agreement. but i am not sure how consistent they are about it

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RE: Stay out of my system! Strategy - 4/10/2010 2:16:57 AM   
Davor

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

Thanks for saving me from testing it. Very much appreciated.

Mod please delete this post on the grounds of complete failure.



Never delete anything. This isn't an utter failure. I leanrt from this, and I believe many more.

(in reply to Malevolence)
Post #: 8
RE: Stay out of my system! Strategy - 4/10/2010 2:24:27 AM   
Shark7


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The biggest problem is that if you have allies, they will send a colony ship across the map to colonize in your back yard, even if they have plenty of suitable planets in their own neighborhood.

And with non-allies...never, ever trade maps...they'll suck up every good planet you found if you do.

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RE: Stay out of my system! Strategy - 4/10/2010 2:54:33 AM   
Tree Dog


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thiosk

I dont think colony purchasing is a strategy that will be around forever.

Its WAY to cheap to buy new colonies.


I don't have a problem with being able to buy allied colonies in one of "my" systems for cheap while there's only 10 millions people in it.

(in reply to thiosk)
Post #: 10
RE: Stay out of my system! Strategy that doesn't work - 4/10/2010 3:12:03 AM   
Jim D Burns


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What the game needs is a new diplomatic stance regarding system ownership. Once you colonize a planet in a non-claimed system, it should by default then be considered your territory and off limits to other colony ships. The only way another race should be allowed to then colonize planets in that system is via diplomatic permission (mutual colonization treaty) or via a state of war.

If a colonization treaty exists, then things like military hardware in a system with a colonized planet should not have negative political effects. Of course if one side ends the treaty and there is a system with shared colonies in it, then things go to normal as they are now for disputed systems. But no new colonies in non-shared systems would be allowed until a new treaty was signed.

The way things are now, sharing your territory or galaxy map is almost suicidal to your future diplomatic efforts. Since if you do trade away the maps it guarantees a wave of alien colony ships will come streaming in and place all your systems into disputed status, thus tanking your rep with everyone.

Jim


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RE: Stay out of my system! Strategy that doesn't work - 4/10/2010 3:30:27 AM   
JonathanStrange


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If only one could pay pirates to harass others from colonizing...

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Post #: 12
RE: Stay out of my system! Strategy - 4/10/2010 6:01:33 AM   
taltamir

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

The biggest problem is that if you have allies, they will send a colony ship across the map to colonize in your back yard, even if they have plenty of suitable planets in their own neighborhood.

And with non-allies...never, ever trade maps...they'll suck up every good planet you found if you do.


1. never trade maps with anyone, allied or non...
2. Are free trade agreement considered allies or only mutual defense pact or protectorates? because i don't do defense pacts. the extra 5% trade is not worth it.

_____________________________

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Post #: 13
RE: Stay out of my system! Strategy - 4/10/2010 6:02:49 AM   
taltamir

 

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i would like to see "unification"... where if you and another empire are REALLY close for a very long time you get the option to unite and become one empire. literally.

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Post #: 14
RE: Stay out of my system! Strategy that doesn't work - 4/10/2010 1:04:28 PM   
kingwanabee

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

What the game needs is a new diplomatic stance regarding system ownership. Once you colonize a planet in a non-claimed system, it should by default then be considered your territory and off limits to other colony ships. The only way another race should be allowed to then colonize planets in that system is via diplomatic permission (mutual colonization treaty) or via a state of war.

If a colonization treaty exists, then things like military hardware in a system with a colonized planet should not have negative political effects. Of course if one side ends the treaty and there is a system with shared colonies in it, then things go to normal as they are now for disputed systems. But no new colonies in non-shared systems would be allowed until a new treaty was signed.

The way things are now, sharing your territory or galaxy map is almost suicidal to your future diplomatic efforts. Since if you do trade away the maps it guarantees a wave of alien colony ships will come streaming in and place all your systems into disputed status, thus tanking your rep with everyone.

Jim


I absolutely agree with this post. The diplomacy model is probably my biggest gripe with this game, and it needs some serious tweaking. Large empires become almost unmanageable later in the game when everyone is colonizing everywhere and relations with even your closest allies plummet. There should be at least an option to turn on that would prevent empires from colonizing each others systems except under the proper circumstances.

Another big problem (to me) is how dramatically spy or diplomatic actions with one empire effect my relations with every other empire. A spy caught by one empire shouldn't make me more untrustworthy to my allies, or even other neutrals. Also, if an empire declares war on ME, it shouldn't give me a negative hit with everyone else.

I find myself restarting a new game every couple days because it bugs me that I can't control "my space", and the expansion of my borders. I also have trouble isolating and taking down my enemies, without ruining my relations with everyone else.

Pretty addicted to the game though! lol

(in reply to Jim D Burns)
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RE: Stay out of my system! Strategy that doesn't work - 4/10/2010 2:41:34 PM   
fabio80mi

 

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quote:

What the game needs is a new diplomatic stance regarding system ownership. Once you colonize a planet in a non-claimed system, it should by default then be considered your territory and off limits to other colony ships. The only way another race should be allowed to then colonize planets in that system is via diplomatic permission (mutual colonization treaty) or via a state of war.

If a colonization treaty exists, then things like military hardware in a system with a colonized planet should not have negative political effects. Of course if one side ends the treaty and there is a system with shared colonies in it, then things go to normal as they are now for disputed systems. But no new colonies in non-shared systems would be allowed until a new treaty was signed.

The way things are now, sharing your territory or galaxy map is almost suicidal to your future diplomatic efforts. Since if you do trade away the maps it guarantees a wave of alien colony ships will come streaming in and place all your systems into disputed status, thus tanking your rep with everyone.

Jim


Quoted in full and kudos for you for putting it out in the best possible way.
100%  agree

(in reply to kingwanabee)
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RE: Stay out of my system! Strategy that doesn't work - 4/10/2010 3:51:31 PM   
JonathanStrange


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The idea of space empires sharing a solar system does feel odd to me - at least at first. It seems to go against a natural owned territory or sphere of influence concept: as if, for example, during the Cold War the Russians governed Kansas and regularly flew over Canada and the US to get there with no particular effort besides a little irritation (or as the AI's algorithms calculations are called "a hit to diplomatic approval").

Yet, in Distant Worlds, we are generally dealing with a sort of land rush, Wild West atmosphere. I think the rules that might govern when an empire has been around for thousands of years and traditionally regard Ceta Alpha IV or Swampy X as within their control, those rules are relaxed. As irritating as it is for a rival to colonize within my solar systems, that I acquired a month or year earlier, it seems plausible that neither I or my AI rivals would automatically declare war on the enemy.  Galactic civilizations are everywhere expanding and xenophobic species might well be regarded by everyone as a common threat with a consequent hit to the xeno's diplomatic standing.

However, I do agree that there should be a way of claiming a solar system (beyond colonizing) as a way of letting AI friends (in particular) and enemies know that the claimant will regard as a hostile act any colonization within a solar system. Of course, one could always declare war as a way of letting people know you're irritated but then there's that hit to your Mr Nice Guy reputation which seems a bit unfair as you (in your opinion) are merely trying to get some unwelcome guests from building a house in your backyard.

But at least with a way of claiming a solar system one has colonized, one's actions would at least not seem so unreasonable and not damage one's reputation as severely. Importantly too, it would tell so-called "friends" that they're not welcome to use the spare bedroom without permission.  The AI could run its calculations and decide friendship isn't all its cracked up to be and colonize regardless.








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RE: Stay out of my system! Strategy - 4/10/2010 4:57:30 PM   
Shark7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

The biggest problem is that if you have allies, they will send a colony ship across the map to colonize in your back yard, even if they have plenty of suitable planets in their own neighborhood.

And with non-allies...never, ever trade maps...they'll suck up every good planet you found if you do.


1. never trade maps with anyone, allied or non...
2. Are free trade agreement considered allies or only mutual defense pact or protectorates? because i don't do defense pacts. the extra 5% trade is not worth it.


It's only the allies with MDPs that tend to do it. Also in the case of the MDP, it doesn't matter on the map, seems like it is automatic. I can see everything that goes on in an allies space.

Personally I think we need more diplomatic options and modify existing ones:

MUTUAL DEFENSE PACT: This is an agreement to come to the aid of an empire if the empire is attacked. It is not a trade of strategic information, like star maps. While it is an alliance, it is not the ultimate level of alliance. With a mutal defense pact, the following should apply:

1. Borders are respected. AI empires shall not build in systems that you already control, and vice-versa.
2. If you or an ally are attacked, a message is sent with the coordinates of the attack and who the perpetrator is.
3. MDP is not an intelligence or mapping agreement, it is simply an agreement to help each other in case of attack...no other bonuses.

ALLIANCE: This is the full, we share everything equally alliance. This is the ultimate diplomatic agreement and as such should be extremely hard to get. At this level, system sharing, map sharing, rare resource trading, etc are included and automatic...even so much as migration of people of both empires to planets already colonized by the other empire. How I would set it up:

1. This is basically a no borders treaty. Everything is shared starmaps and realtime intelligence.
2. System sharing on by default. You can build anything in their territory with no penalties, and vice-versa.
3. Migration allowed: This is a checkbox per planet and is OFF by default. This allows you to gain population via civilian means. If a planet is checked 'allow migration' then members of the Alliance species may move their through civilian means.
4. Shared bonuses. If you are allied, then you are sharing expertise and research. Gain of bonus would be capped at 33% of total. Example: species A has a 60% bonus in research, so under an alliance species B will gain a 20% bonus from the alliance.
5. Automatic trade of rare resources.
6. The benefit of an alliance is your allies will only get mad for attacks or spying on them, or if you do something completely evil in the galaxy...

BASING AGREEMENT: This is an agreement between 2 empires that allows a base or station to be built in a specific location. The location must be specified, and each new base requires a new agreement. Also, the building empire would be required to pay a yearly 'leasing' fee to the empire that agrees to allow the base.

1. Once agreed to, a construction ship is sent to the specified planet and the base type agreed on built.
2. This costs you a fee to be paid yearly until the agreement is cancelled.
3. If the agreement is cancelled, then the empire that owns the territory takes control of the base.

SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT: This is an agreement that allows 1 empire to colonize a planet inside another empires systems. This is not an open colonization, but rather the agreement allows a specified planet to be colonized.

1. Allows you to specify and receive permission to colonize a planet in a system 'owned' by another empire.
2. Allows for you to move to and from the colony without harrassment, and keep a small defensive fleet present.
3. With the agreement, negative modifiers to diplomacy that would normally occur are eliminated.

ADVANCED TRADE AGREEMENT: This is a higher level of the free trade agreement.

1. Gives a 'trade bonus' to both empires.
2. Allows for the automatic trading of rare resources.
3. Like the Alliance, this agreement is harder to achieve than its base, the free trade agreement.

MINING AGREEMENT: This agreement allows empires to build mining stations in each other's territory without penalties. The catch is the 'tarrif' that give half of the resource to the other empire.

1. Allows free and open building of mining stations in another empires territory.
2. Resource collection rate is at 50% for the building empire. The emipre that 'owns' the system where the station is built also gains a 50% extraction rate for the resources harvested.
3. No negative modifiers.
4. Another hard to acquire agreement.

TOURISM AGREEMENT: This agreement allows empires to build resorts in each others territory. 25% of the profits go to the host empire.

1. Can build resorts at any scenic location in another empire.
2. 25% of the profit goes to the host empire.
3. Mid-difficulty agreement to obtain.



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RE: Stay out of my system! Strategy - 4/10/2010 5:37:46 PM   
Ranbir


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Just a question, do they get angry at private sector bases in their system?

I think it could be cool to politically claim a star system before you actually send your state owned bases or colonies. And then the AI can, if they have specced a system in their long term strategy, dispute the claim. Then we do get the concept of territory and what makes diplomacy fun, disputed territory. It becomes one more bargaining chip or a justification to go to war.

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RE: Stay out of my system! Strategy - 4/10/2010 7:14:47 PM   
taltamir

 

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quote:

BASING AGREEMENT: This is an agreement between 2 empires that allows a base or station to be built in a specific location. The location must be specified, and each new base requires a new agreement. Also, the building empire would be required to pay a yearly 'leasing' fee to the empire that agrees to allow the base.

1. Once agreed to, a construction ship is sent to the specified planet and the base type agreed on built.
2. This costs you a fee to be paid yearly until the agreement is cancelled.
3. If the agreement is cancelled, then the empire that owns the territory takes control of the base.

There should be an option for you to keep the base if the agreement is canceled. in which case it is treated as a hostile act (like any other base built in enemy territory)

quote:

SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT: This is an agreement that allows 1 empire to colonize a planet inside another empires systems. This is not an open colonization, but rather the agreement allows a specified planet to be colonized.

1. Allows you to specify and receive permission to colonize a planet in a system 'owned' by another empire.
2. Allows for you to move to and from the colony without harrassment, and keep a small defensive fleet present.
3. With the agreement, negative modifiers to diplomacy that would normally occur are eliminated.


Too impractical, I think it should basically be "system X is open for both of us to colonize freely, but only system X"... neither of us considers it our sole domain and we can both have fleets there, it should also be doable after the fact... as in "I know we both colonized system X, lets agree to make it a neutral system"

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Post #: 20
RE: Stay out of my system! Strategy - 4/12/2010 8:38:07 AM   
Fishman

 

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Life is so much simpler when everyone already hates you. Then it's just a matter of checking the map, "Oh, hey, thanks for free the colony, suckers."

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RE: Stay out of my system! Strategy - 4/12/2010 2:57:47 PM   
ypsylon

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman

Life is so much simpler when everyone already hates you. Then it's just a matter of checking the map, "Oh, hey, thanks for free the colony, suckers."

Very, very true.

I think that DW desperately needs some territory/influence border like in GC2.

Star Trek spring to mind here. Dominion never allowed Federation colony inside its border. Can you imagine for example Romulans, Cardassians or Tzenketi allowing colonization of a world inside Empire space?

Or Babylon 5 where no ship returned from Vorlon space.

This backyard colonization is one thing I very much hate in DW. To avoid BC (backyard colonization) best course of action is what Fishman suggested: "Get lost and burn in hell".

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Post #: 22
RE: Stay out of my system! Strategy - 4/12/2010 3:18:59 PM   
RViener

 

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Jim Burns and Shark 7 are on the right Track with their suggestions. It would definitely put more meat on Distant World's diplomatic bones. These options would transform the game from simple 4E's to a deeper simulation. Spheres of Influence make sense.
Bob Viener

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Post #: 23
RE: Stay out of my system! Strategy - 4/12/2010 10:21:05 PM   
Gertjan

 

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I second that!

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Post #: 24
RE: Stay out of my system! Strategy - 4/12/2010 11:05:31 PM   
Wade1000


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Any additions are good as long as the AI can use them competently.

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Post #: 25
RE: Stay out of my system! Strategy - 4/13/2010 1:54:17 AM   
Fishman

 

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Honestly, the colony purchasing thing is probably in the AI's advantage right now: Consider: It costs him about $3000 to MAKE the colony, and he can sell it to you for many times that. He's making out like a bandit. Compare this to other games, where the only thing the AI will exchange even a crappy colony for is a plasma cannon to the head.

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Post #: 26
RE: Stay out of my system! Strategy - 4/14/2010 5:17:27 PM   
RViener

 

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Bump

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Post #: 27
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