FITE MOD 2010

Norm Koger's The Operational Art of War III is the next game in the award-winning Operational Art of War game series. TOAW3 is updated and enhanced version of the TOAW: Century of Warfare game series. TOAW3 is a turn based game covering operational warfare from 1850-2015. Game scale is from 2.5km to 50km and half day to full week turns. TOAW3 scenarios have been designed by over 70 designers and included over 130 scenarios. TOAW3 comes complete with a full game editor.

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fogger
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FITE MOD 2010

Post by fogger »

To all FITE fans the aim of this post to try and make the best game / scenario even better. Like a good bottle of red wine FITE can only get better.

What I would like to propose is a system where we can make suggestions on improving FITE. My idea is to use this post for people to make suggestions and post the changes they propose. For example someone could suggest that “event 111 be changed from x to y and a new event 789 for something to happen” to be added. If the majority are happy then that person or the master programmer (if someone would like to volunteer for that job) would make the changes to the “master copy”. Larry Fulkerson has volunteered to be the “custodian of the master copy”.

The only thing that I would ask is that when someone makes a suggestion that in replying that we will be like the cavalry in that we add “couth and decorum to what will no doubt become an unholy brawl”. In others words please play the ball and not the man.

Over to Larry now for details on how to access the master copy.
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larryfulkerson
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RE: FITE MOD 2010

Post by larryfulkerson »

So um......I didn't know if you guys wanted to start with the plain vanilla version 5.0 FITE or Buzz's Mod or what so I just posted the v 5.0 FITE on a file server and made the folder share-able which means you guys can get the latest version from there.  The shared folder can be found here:

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=d47f ... c9e6d81d20

Here's a small html file that will allow people to upload their files to the shared folder:
http://www.mediafire.com/file/zmfdhq2jm ... older.html

I think this is a great idea....to modify this great scenario to make it even "better".
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Karri
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RE: FITE MOD 2010

Post by Karri »

I did these changes:

Axis minors now reconstruct, with the exception of fleets, forts and air force.
-Finns reconstruct in Helsinki
-Hungarians reconstruct at Budapest
-Slovakians reconstruct at Bratislava
-Italians reconstruct at Triest
-Romanians reconstruct at Bucharest

- German air shock 105 in 1943, instead of 100(event 10)
-Russian first winter shock 105(event 11)
-Russian shock of 95 after winter offensive(event 14)
-turn 178 russian air shock 100(event 26)
-Russian shock until mud set to 95(event 361)
-turn 4 air shock to 80(event 362)
-turn 11 russian air shock to 85(event 363)
-turn 32 russian air shock 90(event 501)
-turn 57 russian air shock 95(event 502)



-Some changes to territory in Finland. Shallow water to deep water
in order to decrease frontage
-Max rounds per battle set to 2





But, I think they are only for experienced Axis player versus experienced Soviet players. One thing you oughta copy though is the air events, they seem to be working real nice so far....then again, I have only tested until turn 20.
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RE: FITE MOD 2010

Post by larryfulkerson »

ORIGINAL: Karri
....then again, I have only tested until turn 20.
Hey Karri: I like all your changes and I think it's a good idea to test them. Did you want to post your version to the shared folder so everybody can have a copy? I'm still wondering if people can post their stuff to the shared folder you see. Do me a big favor and try to post your version to the shared folder please.
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philturco
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RE: FITE MOD 2010

Post by philturco »

The attempts to improve FITE are much appreciated. I'm really looking forward to a game that plays into 42 and even beyond if possible. This is an awesome scenerio. I hope it can be made even better.
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vsadek
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RE: FITE MOD 2010

Post by vsadek »

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

So um......I didn't know if you guys wanted to start with the plain vanilla version 5.0 FITE or Buzz's Mod or what so I just posted the v 5.0 FITE on a file server and made the folder share-able which means you guys can get the latest version from there.  The shared folder can be found here:

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=d47f ... c9e6d81d20

Somebody please try to get into the shared folder to see if it works.  Also I posted the plain vanilla v 5.0 FITE inside the folder and if the above shared folder idea doesn't work you can always access the beginning "master copy" from here:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/2je5mqytb ... 1-1945.SCE

Either way, I'll keep putting the newest version in the shared folder so we can all see where we are and have access to the latest version.

Hello Larry!

Just to inform you – both of your links are working. I could get and download .SCE's without any problem.
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RE: FITE MOD 2010

Post by larryfulkerson »

ORIGINAL: vsadek
Hello Larry!
Just to inform you – both of your links are working. I could get and download .SCE's without any problem.
That's good to know that you can download stuff. What I'm wondering is if anybody can upload their files to the shared folder. So as to continually update the "current working copy" if you know what I mean.

I've done some investigating and found the script to upload to our shared folder. This html file found here:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/zmfdhq2jm ... older.html

will allow persons to upload files to our shared folder. So hey, we're in business.
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Panama
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RE: FITE MOD 2010

Post by Panama »

Any thoughts on what to do with the Soviet air units? They're a mish mash of multiple air types. Fighters, bombers and attack all in the same counter. Doesn't work real well. The author even thinks so.
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RE: FITE MOD 2010

Post by larryfulkerson »

ORIGINAL: Panama
Any thoughts on what to do with the Soviet air units? They're a mish mash of multiple air types. Fighters, bombers and attack all in the same counter. Doesn't work real well. The author even thinks so.
I had speaks with the author ( via email ) and turns out that it was done that way to save on the number of counters used since the total number of counters per side is limited and it was a tight squeeze as it is to get all the different types represented. Personally I would rather that the counter represent equipment of the same range and mission ( fighters only, or bombers only, etc. ) so that you don't have any bad surprises. It is possible in FITE to put a counter on AS missions thinking the counter has only fighters and your bombers are on AS missions too...just to see them melt away quickly.

Also, may I say for the record that I really like the idea of having to chase down partisans. The scenario Directive 21 has abstracted them and I miss it. Having to come up with a strategy to get to each random appearing partisan quickly and destroy it before too much mayheim is done all the while having to fight a major war in a different AO sort of stretches the players ability to multi-task and keep a lot of details in mind simultaneously. I like it.
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Panama
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RE: FITE MOD 2010

Post by Panama »

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson
Also, may I say for the record that I really like the idea of having to chase down partisans. The scenario Directive 21 has abstracted them and I miss it. Having to come up with a strategy to get to each random appearing partisan quickly and destroy it before too much mayheim is done all the while having to fight a major war in a different AO sort of stretches the players ability to multi-task and keep a lot of details in mind simultaneously. I like it.

If I recall don't the partisans appear in a set location? Do they reconstitute in random locations or is that set too?

This is just a personal opinion. I would rather get rid of the partisans and the Axis MP units. Use the empty partisan slots for air units. The eliminated Axis MP units won't be running around the board spearheading Axis thrusts into the Soviet hinterland as I've seen them doing in far too many AARs. Throw away the Axis corp units too. Same problem.
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RE: FITE MOD 2010

Post by larryfulkerson »

ORIGINAL: Panama
If I recall don't the partisans appear in a set location?

I believe they do in the plain vanilla version of 5.0 FITE.
ORIGINAL: Panama
This is just a personal opinion. I would rather get rid of the partisans and the Axis MP units. Use the empty partisan slots for air units. The eliminated Axis MP units won't be running around the board spearheading Axis thrusts into the Soviet hinterland as I've seen them doing in far too many AARs. Throw away the Axis corp units too. Same problem.

I think getting rid of the partisans and the Axis MP units to be able to have enough counters to sort out the Soviet aircraft units is a good idea. I'm in favor of that proposition.
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sPzAbt653
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RE: FITE MOD 2010

Post by sPzAbt653 »

Technically, I believe the early Soviet air units were designed as they are in order to reflect their poor performance. Those early units won't be around for the entire scenario as their planes are early models that stop production by 1942.
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RE: FITE MOD 2010

Post by larryfulkerson »

I was going through some old paperwork on a FITE game I played with Karri, looking for clues for better gameplay, and found a list of types of Axis units in the order of battle. I don't know how accurate it is but it's a start and better than nothing at all. I don't know which turn it represents either. According to my calculations there should be about 665 land combatish types. Here's the list:

Code: Select all

 engineers      30
 paratroopers   14
 MPs            20
 arty pieces    26
 RR arty        9
 rocket units   7
 RR repair      30
 AT guns        10
 AA guns        6
 security units 19
 Slovak units   3
 Hungarians     15
 Italians       3
 Romanian       5 (garrison)
 Romanian       49 ( combat units )
 Romanian       2 ( coastal forts )
 German Ftrs    27
 German Bmbrs   39
 Finn misc.     12
 Finn           4 ( coastal forts )
 Finn           60 ( combat units )
 Garrison       23 ( German )
 Coastal Forts  21 ( German ) 
 Turks          49
 other          494 (everything else )
  
 
 
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RE: FITE MOD 2010

Post by Karri »

I guess you could combine some of the german air units...they are considerably smaller than the soviet ones.
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RE: FITE MOD 2010

Post by larryfulkerson »

ORIGINAL: Karri
I guess you could combine some of the german air units...they are considerably smaller than the soviet ones.
Yes, Soviet air units typically number in the hundreds of aircraft and German squadrons are about 42 assigned. I say "assigned" instead of authorized because most German squadrons operate at less than authorized strength. That's a good idea.

Another thing we might do is eliminate the partisans. That way we could do away with the MP and security units.

And another thing: we don't need the garrison units until late in the game when the Soviets are pressing toward Berlin. Maybe we could invent an event trigger thing to make the garrison unit appear in the threatened hex(s) just before it's needed. This scheme may need more events than we have so we may need to have ALL the garrison units appear when the first threatened hex is threatened, so that only one event is needed.

And do we really need the Italians to be represented? Do we need the Slavic units?
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Da_Huge_D
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RE: FITE MOD 2010

Post by Da_Huge_D »

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson
ORIGINAL: Karri
I guess you could combine some of the german air units...they are considerably smaller than the soviet ones.
Yes, Soviet air units typically number in the hundreds of aircraft and German squadrons are about 42 assigned. I say "assigned" instead of authorized because most German squadrons operate at less than authorized strength. That's a good idea.

Another thing we might do is eliminate the partisans. That way we could do away with the MP and security units.

And another thing: we don't need the garrison units until late in the game when the Soviets are pressing toward Berlin. Maybe we could invent an event trigger thing to make the garrison unit appear in the threatened hex(s) just before it's needed. This scheme may need more events than we have so we may need to have ALL the garrison units appear when the first threatened hex is threatened, so that only one event is needed.

And do we really need the Italians to be represented? Do we need the Slavic units?

Ofcourse keep Italians and Slovaks. Also i would add Bulgarian units... There's so much free space at Axis OOB so why not?
They were there historically so why remove them?
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RE: FITE MOD 2010

Post by Karri »

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson
Another thing we might do is eliminate the partisans. That way we could do away with the MP and security units.

I second that, the partisans are useless. The only time they actually manage to do something, is when the Axis player forgets they exist.
And another thing: we don't need the garrison units until late in the game when the Soviets are pressing toward Berlin. Maybe we could invent an event trigger thing to make the garrison unit appear in the threatened hex(s) just before it's needed. This scheme may need more events than we have so we may need to have ALL the garrison units appear when the first threatened hex is threatened, so that only one event is needed.

What difference does that make? Why complicate?
And do we really need the Italians to be represented? Do we need the Slavic units?

Yes, the italians especially can make a difference.
ORIGINAL: Da_Huge_D
Ofcourse keep Italians and Slovaks. Also i would add Bulgarian units... There's so much free space at Axis OOB so why not?
They were there historically so why remove them?

Well...the Bulgarians didn't participate at all, did they? If anything, they fought against the Axis.

Also, I think Turkish and Swedish troops ought to be removed.

One more note, I was reading wikipedia(bored at work) and noticed that the defenders of Odessa were evacuated into Sevastopol. With the current map this is really not possible, so I think the sea zones should be changed a bit for this to be possible.
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Panama
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RE: FITE MOD 2010

Post by Panama »

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson
ORIGINAL: Karri
I guess you could combine some of the german air units...they are considerably smaller than the soviet ones.
Yes, Soviet air units typically number in the hundreds of aircraft and German squadrons are about 42 assigned. I say "assigned" instead of authorized because most German squadrons operate at less than authorized strength. That's a good idea.

Another thing we might do is eliminate the partisans. That way we could do away with the MP and security units.

And another thing: we don't need the garrison units until late in the game when the Soviets are pressing toward Berlin. Maybe we could invent an event trigger thing to make the garrison unit appear in the threatened hex(s) just before it's needed. This scheme may need more events than we have so we may need to have ALL the garrison units appear when the first threatened hex is threatened, so that only one event is needed.

And do we really need the Italians to be represented? Do we need the Slavic units?

Nooooooo. Don't eliminate the German security units. They actually were used at the front as combat troops. The only time the rear area security units (MP, NKVD MP) got thrown into combat is when they got swept up by the other sides offense. The German units whose counters say SEC should remain.

The Axis OOB is actually pretty accurate. It's how some of the units are used (corp and higher HQ, MPs). They should never purposely see the front line. Ever.
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RE: FITE MOD 2010

Post by larryfulkerson »

Hey you guys....Steve Sill is the designer of Autumn Fog and is experienced in scenario design and he sent me an email about our FITE mod and he mentioned something about the Attrition Divider. I think we may need to give the AD in FITE some attention. Here's the verbage from Steve.
There have been a few discussions on the Forum about the Attrition Divider (AD), so maybe I don't need to say anything else about it, but I feel it is important to FitE so I'll hit on it again. While the AD isn't something that can be set automatically depending on scale, and Norm never really explained it in depth, there are some general guidelines that indicate the default setting of 10 is too high for FitE. The big point in my mind is that in many FitE AAR's we've seen the scenario stalemate. Some people argue that this is due to the varying abilities of players. That could be part of it, but I think there is something else, and it may well be the AD. It makes sense to me that if the East Front gets stalemated in attrition battles, that it could be that the AD setting of 10 is causing too few casualties resulting in combats that don't cause the defender to retreat. As you know, we went with 6 for Directive 21 testing, and we've seen no reason to argue that this is wrong.

As you are involved in the new FitE mod, I thought I should mention this as an aspect worth considering. My opinion would be that 10 is too high, anything from 4 to 8 might be more appropriate for FitE and may help in preventing stalemate, even if the Soviet player retreats eastward early.

Anybody want to tackle changing the AD for our FITE mod? I would do it but I'm knee-deep in playing two PBEM games simultaneously and time is a premium for me now.
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Panama
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RE: FITE MOD 2010

Post by Panama »

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

Hey you guys....Steve Sill is the designer of Autumn Fog and is experienced in scenario design and he sent me an email about our FITE mod and he mentioned something about the Attrition Divider. I think we may need to give the AD in FITE some attention. Here's the verbage from Steve.
There have been a few discussions on the Forum about the Attrition Divider (AD), so maybe I don't need to say anything else about it, but I feel it is important to FitE so I'll hit on it again. While the AD isn't something that can be set automatically depending on scale, and Norm never really explained it in depth, there are some general guidelines that indicate the default setting of 10 is too high for FitE. The big point in my mind is that in many FitE AAR's we've seen the scenario stalemate. Some people argue that this is due to the varying abilities of players. That could be part of it, but I think there is something else, and it may well be the AD. It makes sense to me that if the East Front gets stalemated in attrition battles, that it could be that the AD setting of 10 is causing too few casualties resulting in combats that don't cause the defender to retreat. As you know, we went with 6 for Directive 21 testing, and we've seen no reason to argue that this is wrong.

As you are involved in the new FitE mod, I thought I should mention this as an aspect worth considering. My opinion would be that 10 is too high, anything from 4 to 8 might be more appropriate for FitE and may help in preventing stalemate, even if the Soviet player retreats eastward early.

Anybody want to tackle changing the AD for our FITE mod? I would do it but I'm knee-deep in playing two PBEM games simultaneously and time is a premium for me now.


If you are trying to enable players to create historical results perhaps you need to ask yourself how events unfolded to create the situation as it became by the end of the different major offensives in the east. There is not one individual thing that needs to be tweaked. Instead there are a large number of things, one being extremely time consuming.

The Soviets had enormous problems. Not enough time to train an army that had almost tripled in size in two years. Train AND arm an additional 20 (20!!!) mechanized corps (60 divisions!) in one year, many which had just formed in the spring of 1941 using largely obsolete tanks. Replacing an officer corp decimated by a paranoid leader. Many Front HQ had just begun moving from peacetime to wartime HQ locations so they were fairly out of communitcation at the exact time the invasion started leaving only skeleton staffs to handle the tremendous volume of information that poured in because of the attack. The Germans unknowingly picked almost the perfect time to attack. The fact that the Soviets survived to win is astounding and a testament to the prewar planning, the determination of a people and the sheer size of the Axis undertaking.

Also you have to understand that the Soviets were not 'frozen' in place as it seems most people believe. The major formations had sealed standing orders that were to be opened in the event of an invasion if they were not able to receive communitcations from higher up the ladder. Division, Corp and Army commanders knew that they needed to follow these orders or suffer the consequences. While there were a few formations that did not follow them to the letter, the majority did.

What you need to do is actually do some reading, get an understanding of what happened from the north to the south and work within the framework of TOAW to achieve similar results. Some new house rules would be needed because TOAW cannot possibly cover all the situations that come up in any group of campaigns in an entire war. When the boardgame was the only thing rules were never a problem and there were alot of them. I don't see having rules to cover what happened in the east or any other campaign as a problem.

FitE is like a soup that doesn't taste right. Different cooks walk past and throw in a bit of this and a bit of that trying to get the taste right. What they end up doing is making it worse and worse. Throw the soup out and start over but keep the Axis beef stock. [;)]

IMO.
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