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RE: DaBabes - Comment Call

 
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RE: DaBabes - Comment Call - 4/3/2010 1:11:11 PM   
Blackhorse


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Re: CD guns. What is the functional difference between having the M1A1s classified as "Naval" vs "Army" guns?

If an Army gun can bombard, and still be just as effective in a CD role (by using the accuracy setting in the editor), then by all means set them as Army.

. . . and don't forget the 90mm. In AE I set them as DP guns (so they could serve as AA as well as anti-ship). Supposedly, the device range has to be over 15k for DP to function. True? The Marines also used the 90mm for artillery support, but I couldn't out a way to make the 90mm function as AA, CD and arty.

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Post #: 31
RE: DaBabes - Comment Call - 4/3/2010 7:32:10 PM   
JWE

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse
Re: CD guns. What is the functional difference between having the M1A1s classified as "Naval" vs "Army" guns?
If an Army gun can bombard, and still be just as effective in a CD role (by using the accuracy setting in the editor), then by all means set them as Army.

Woof !! you are making me think; Damn you Joel. Not sure; took the path of least resistance and greatest benefit to the Arty branch. Ok, will crank thru the code again and see what kind of voodoo we can do.
quote:

. . . and don't forget the 90mm. In AE I set them as DP guns (so they could serve as AA as well as anti-ship). The Marines also used the 90mm for artillery support, but I couldn't out a way to make the 90mm function as AA, CD and arty.

Yeah, the 90s were interesting. Jim found some great stuff on 90mm batteries, some were on AAA mounts, some were on Hi-deflection Anti-torpedo boat mounts; the ammo allocated to each, and more important the fuzes, meant that one could not fire in the other mode. But that's getting too 'technical', so DP is way cool. There were only a few 90s that had HE with CP fuzes, so didn't think they would be important in the grand scheme of Arty things. Think DP is best for these (probably get kicked out of lodge for saying so).
quote:

Supposedly, the device range has to be over 15k for DP to function. True?

Not exactly. AAA model looks at the Ceiling parameter (it's in feet). Other models look at Range parameter (it's in k-yds). They are independent.

Ciao. John


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Post #: 32
RE: DaBabes - Comment Call - 4/3/2010 9:49:40 PM   
Mac Linehan

 

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Status: offline 		Sounds Outstanding, JWE.

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Post #: 33
RE: DaBabes - Comment Call - 4/3/2010 10:42:06 PM   
Mac Linehan

 

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Status: offline 		Original:

JWE -

The idea is to remove BF “units” per se, and aggregate their stuff into other, more actual, units. The further idea is to have the numbers of these other units represent a particular actuality. The number of supporting LCUs will be more limited, yes, but both sides can still put in big pushes. It just means that a big push has to be organized in scope as well as scale. One will need appropriate HQs, and specifically designated supporting units, to be able to herd the cats. There was a reason why Watchtower was called Shoestring.

JWE -

Victory Game's board game "Pacific War" (from the 1980's), permitted only one major operation at a time, to simulate the logistical concentration and planning needed to conduct, support and maintain each specific operation. Your vision as outlined above seems a major step in the right direction.

I also like the idea of matching Airbase Group / Squadron (support units) to their numerically associated Air Units, as suggested earlier by another poster. This could be easily implemented thru a house rule.

Mac



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Post #: 34
RE: DaBabes - Comment Call - 4/3/2010 11:29:28 PM   
Blackhorse


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quote:

Yeah, the 90s were interesting. Jim found some great stuff on 90mm batteries, some were on AAA mounts, some were on Hi-deflection Anti-torpedo boat mounts; the ammo allocated to each, and more important the fuzes, meant that one could not fire in the other mode. But that's getting too 'technical', so DP is way cool. There were only a few 90s that had HE with CP fuzes, so didn't think they would be important in the grand scheme of Arty things. Think DP is best for these (probably get kicked out of lodge for saying so).


I didn't know about the mounts and fuzes. Fascinating stuff. The 90mm produced at the beginning of the war (M1A1) could only be used for AA, because it couldn't depress enough to engage direct-fire targets. The M2 model, beginning in '43, could depress to -10 degrees, IIRC, and were added to Harbor Defenses as Anti-Motor Torpedo Boat batteries, as well as replacing the 3" AA gun in Army CAA battalions, and Marine Defense battalions. That's why, in stock AE, the M1 is "AA" and the M2 is "DP."

The US produced over 10,000 90mm guns, during the war, mostly M2s. In-game production should be closer to 100/month than the current 20/30 month, so that the 90mms can eventually replace all of the 3" guns in CAA service.

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Post #: 35
RE: DaBabes - Comment Call - 4/3/2010 11:52:12 PM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8014
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From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse


Re: CD guns. What is the functional difference between having the M1A1s classified as "Naval" vs "Army" guns?

If an Army gun can bombard, and still be just as effective in a CD role (by using the accuracy setting in the editor), then by all means set them as Army.



Only Naval/DP guns can be used as CD Guns. Army weapons can only be used during amphib invasion against troops approaching in landing craft or at transports close in (usually landing ships but could be transports unloading close to shore).

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Post #: 36
RE: DaBabes - Comment Call - 4/4/2010 6:32:33 PM   
JWE

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse
Re: CD guns. What is the functional difference between having the M1A1s classified as "Naval" vs "Army" guns?

If an Army gun can bombard, and still be just as effective in a CD role (by using the accuracy setting in the editor), then by all means set them as Army.

Only Naval/DP guns can be used as CD Guns. Army weapons can only be used during amphib invasion against troops approaching in landing craft or at transports close in (usually landing ships but could be transports unloading close to shore).

I guess the real question is: can a CD (Naval Weapon) gun be used for arty bombardment combat or defensive fire as though it was an Army Weapon?

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Post #: 37
RE: DaBabes - Comment Call - 4/4/2010 10:30:40 PM   
Jan Masterson


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE
I guess the real question is: can a CD (Naval Weapon) gun be used for arty bombardment combat or defensive fire as though it was an Army Weapon?


though you are probably more knowledgeable than myself about that, in game, yes, they can.

During WW2, it occurred at several occasion, notably at Singapore where the 15" were turned northward to fire at the Japanese forces (their HE provision were although too scarce for that particular mission) and the defense of Sevastopol, the 30th battery "Maxim Gorky-I" provided support fire toward German forces.

However, there was also several coastal batteries that couldn't be rotated at the opposite of their designed field of fire and they usually hadn't preplanned fire mission toward landmarks.

< Message edited by Jan Masterson -- 4/4/2010 10:32:16 PM >

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Post #: 38
RE: DaBabes - Comment Call - 4/5/2010 12:44:40 AM   
Dili

 

Posts: 2579
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline 		The question was about in game behavior of CD(naval weapon) vs Army Weapon.

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Post #: 39
RE: DaBabes - Comment Call - 4/7/2010 2:59:25 AM   
mikemike

 

Posts: 489
Joined: 6/3/2004
From: a maze of twisty little passages, all different
Status: offline 		Have just downloaded the 002a versions. The first issue I found was the armament of the Admiralty "V" (class 122/123) and Admiralty "W" (class 243/244) DD; they are defined as having device 1514 (4.5in/45 QF Mk V) instead of device 1528 (4in/40 QF Mk IV) for the RAN ships and the same gun or perhaps device 1547 (4.7in/45 BL Mk I) for the Admiralty "W" class (although apparently no such ship is in the game).

Furthermore, while the armament of the Admiralty "S" class (245/246) is now correct (other than in the official scenarios), there was no such thing as the Admiralty "T" class (247/248), this is just the "S" class as well; destroyer classes in WWI didn't have the kind of correlation between the class designation and ship name as in WWII, so the "S" class comprised ships starting with "S" and "T"; the "R" class comprised "R" and "S" names, and the "M" class had names starting with "M", "N", "O", "P", and "Q" (no "M" class destroyers survived until WWI, and only a few "R" class, comprising "Skate" with the RN and "Pra Ruang" ex "Radiant" with the Royal Thai Navy.) However, that is a minor point, more important is that all Admiralty "S" class in the Far East were modified to be quickly convertible (inside maybe two days) between the DD form, as in the game, and the DM form, which exchanged the torpedo tubes and the center and aft guns for rails for 40 mines. All the ships in the game operated at times as minelayers and were then converted back to DDs. Of the Hong Kong destroyers, "Scout" and "Thanet" were in DD form and transferred to Singapore when the balloon went up, while "Thracian" was in DM form and engaged in laying defensive minefields, then in local patrols and converting back to DD form while replenishing between sorties between December 10th and 15th. This would be a pretty useful opportunity for the Convert option.


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Post #: 40
RE: DaBabes - Comment Call - 4/7/2010 7:13:05 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6576
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline 		I guess the answer, Joel, is kinda. Guns with device type 18 = Naval Gun qualify for "bombardment" under certain circumstances. It's more limited than a device type 19 = Army Weapon. Think the units that got the M1A1 ought to go Arty.

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Post #: 41
RE: DaBabes - Comment Call - 4/14/2010 8:46:07 PM   
topeverest

 

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From: Atlanta, GA - USA
Status: online 		This data mod will be part of an upcoming patch? Will there be a consolidated scope statement for us users?

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