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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR

 
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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 3/28/2010 9:34:01 PM   
PyleDriver


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Ah the trap was set, anyone see it coming? Mackensen's III PzC struck north, Schweppenburg's XL PzC struck south, look at the pocket...Sweet huh...lol...I really love this game...




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< Message edited by PyleDriver -- 3/28/2010 10:02:43 PM >


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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 3/28/2010 9:43:40 PM   
PyleDriver


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Heres a level 4 zoom to give you a better understanding in the south central...It's pretty, huh...




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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 3/29/2010 2:30:54 AM   
wmcalpine

 

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Jon,

I counted 28 units in the large pocket and 2 in the small pocket, with at least 5 corps in them. Do you consider this a large pocket in your experience in the game?

If the pockets are reduced, cound you give us an idea what in in those two pockets in terms of Soviet equipment lost/captured and number of men that surrender?

Thank you

Bill

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 3/29/2010 4:51:47 AM   
PyleDriver


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Well Bill the last pocket netted over 170k. Not sure of the equipment. I have to eat up troops and equipment to beat this "Bear". They just produce so much at this stage in the war I have no choice but to go straight at them. If not, by next year it's a lost cause...To answer your question I'll see if I can get close in numbers, alot escape...

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 3/29/2010 5:26:37 AM   
PyleDriver


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This will freak you out, that double envelope by the 6th and 1st PzA was planned on day one...lol...Got to think outside the box...

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 3/29/2010 8:38:01 AM   
Apollo11


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HI all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: PyleDriver

Heres a level 4 zoom to give you a better understanding in the south central...It's pretty, huh...


Nice one Jon!


Leo "Apollo11"

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 3/29/2010 3:57:37 PM   
PyleDriver


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Good morning Russia...On the northern salient Model's 9th Army is cleaning up the rear and pressing to close the gap...




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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 3/29/2010 6:01:30 PM   
PyleDriver


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This is my man, Armin his XXXIX PzC, he's a very good leader, so I'm going to throw him what he needs to get out of the swamp. I brough 2 divisions and a mot brigade from 18th Army (yellow) and drew the 18th mot (light blue) out of the line. The 225th Inf (red) took their place and next week and all the boys are joining the fun...




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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 3/29/2010 6:40:26 PM   
PyleDriver


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Last post of turn 3. This is a level 4 ss of the north. You can see why Armin's Corps is being activated next turm and reinforced now...BTW thanks Leo, he's a tester, great tester, he's not a jocky like me, but it feels good knowing my peers are watching...Stand in "awh" soon guys Moscow will be mine...lol..




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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 3/29/2010 6:41:43 PM   
latosusi

 

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Heh, what a bulge!

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 3/29/2010 7:17:37 PM   
Captain B


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Just how soviets do you intend to cut off with that bulge? Could you post a ss using the zoomed out shot of the north and draw your arrows to show us what you plan to do next turn and then what actually happened? I think it would give a good impression of planned vs achieved and how the AI reacts to your next blitzkrieg move.

Thanks.

ps...how many weeks til you take moscow? 2-3? Been to Moscow, food stinks. so just stick to the wine and vodka

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 3/29/2010 7:37:25 PM   
PyleDriver


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Hell you guys kill me...lol...It's like asking for the end of the movie at the start...Wait it will come, I have 14 turns to do this, its only turn three...

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 3/29/2010 10:29:45 PM   
Zorch

 

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You could repeat this pincer strategy ad infinitum, and the AI will never wise up, unlike a human.

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 3/29/2010 11:15:43 PM   
PyleDriver


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No, and sorry no one could have seen the hit coming I just gave on the AI, not even you....The Germans could have done so much in 42 If they stayed near railheads...

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 3/29/2010 11:59:59 PM   
freeboy

 

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railheads..
looks like a plan... they are the new HIGH GROUND... I am so please that supplies and unit cohesion/ rest/recovery are modeled so well, this looks like a great pbem game!
thanks agin for takign the time to post pix!

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 3/30/2010 9:56:29 AM   
von Jaeger


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PyleDriver

No, and sorry no one could have seen the hit coming I just gave on the AI, not even you....


Dear Pyle

Couldn' let that go!

I for one spotted it starting to develop when you posted the (Level 4?) Zoom Out SS on page 3 of this thread - although not before! Before that I had wondered what 1 Pz Army (if that's the Red one) was doing clawing away at the Soviet line without much strategic intent, or so it appeared. Then when 6th Army started to turn south (when I had thought all its efforts were supporting the Hoth's Northern thrust) it became clear that a serious pocket could be formed.

So - you keep nipping out chunks of the line, eliminating them whilst consolidating the new bulge, regrouping the armour and doing it again. General movement is towards Moscow but this serious, regular attrition is vital to prevent the Soviets building up huge reserves?

Your losses are fairly light so far? Fatigue?

S

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 3/30/2010 10:14:32 AM   
PyleDriver


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Ah a smart guy, I love it...Yes, had to do it, Its all about eating up troops and equipment now...

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 3/30/2010 1:02:17 PM   
ComradeP

 

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I'm still wondering why you're not trying to create a pocket by going north from Rzhev and south-east from the Demjansk bulge. You're actually attacking towards the west now, and you're moving armoured and motorized forces away from Moscow instead of towards it.

As to pockets: I think I agree with Zorch. I have yet to see an AI in a wargame that can't be pulled into a trap with relative ease: pull back from a part of the line, creating a bulge shaped area facing your side of the front (so a bulge to the west), with strong armoured/motorized forces at the flanks. Let the AI move into the bulge, trap the AI units next turn with the forces at the flanks. Repeat at your leisure. A human player won't fall for that trick, but the AI usually will.

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 3/30/2010 1:35:13 PM   
Hard Sarge


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well, would say, you havn't seen this game yet, in 41, it can be fun, it can turn into a battle of the pockets, while you are trying to force yours, the AI is trying to form it's own, and if you don't pay attention, you may end up getting your lead forces cut off, and encircled instead

and, over all, your plan/idea, is worthless to the battle, you are not gaining anything, but getting some troops killed, you do, get into a time limit type deal, you only have so much time, to get the job done, or your going to be facing, more and more

but, overall, you just got to take our word for it, for now

(one of my games (again in 41) the AI German had encircled a large Russian Army around Kiev, and I encircled his circle, then it was a nasty battle of me, trying to break his lines to open a path to my trapped troops, while "he" tried to break my lines, to get to his trapped troops (of course, if it wasn't for weather, lack of supplies, and extended line, none of this would of happened) and it was great fun, basicly, neither pocket got out with much)



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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 3/30/2010 2:26:40 PM   
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The AI is smarter then you think in this game.

Of course we have been playing on challenging, I have not yet seen the need to go to Hard yet, and while testing my wife can hear me using such words as "you bastard!" and when she looks she sees me cursing my monitor over this game as the AI commits Pz., Pz.G., and Inf.Div. to defend his lines as I brutally assault them in snow and ice....

And if challenging and hard at not enough you can always try the impossible level.


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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 3/30/2010 8:40:36 PM   
ComradeP

 

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quote:

and, over all, your plan/idea, is worthless to the battle, you are not gaining anything, but getting some troops killed


You're saying you're not gaining anything by making a pocket? Judging by the screenshots, the Soviets don't have a lot of quality forces in 1941-1942, which is historical. If you can pocket those quality forces (Guards units, Tank/Cavalry/Rifle Corps), you will gain quite a lot. Killing units in a pocket will usually result in far less casualties than attacking them head on if the casualty reports from elmo's AAR are an indication.

If you can let the AI advance into some steppe/clear/farmland hexes without much strategic value (ergo: most of the western and southern parts of the map) and can kill units by pocketing them, I don't think that's a "worthless" thing to try. The Germans have to kill Soviet units, and pocketed units seem to die a lot faster than regular units. Besides, it's sort of a backhand blow+ method, and the backhand blow was used with a fair amount of success by both sides (the first years of the war from the Soviet perspective eventually turned into one giant nationwide backhand blow).

< Message edited by ComradeP -- 3/30/2010 8:41:22 PM >

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 3/30/2010 10:05:04 PM   
malfid

 

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quote:

(the first years of the war from the Soviet perspective eventually turned into one giant nationwide backhand blow).


I'm unsure how to interpret the above. Are you referring to the first winter offensive? Or Uranus/Saturn/Mars? The first winter offensive, at the very least, was an exercise in opportunism - and exceedingly poorly executed, at that. That is to say, it was not a conscious 'backhanded blow', ala Manstein's Kharkov experiences in 1942/1943. Stalin committed the carefully husbanded strategic reserve into an offensive all along the front that was weak everywhere and strong nowhere, despite heavy opposition from Zhukov and the General Staff.

quote:

Killing units in a pocket will usually result in far less casualties than attacking them head on if the casualty reports from elmo's AAR are an indication.


A recent screenshot from another alpha tester had me wondering. I believe it was from the 1943-1945 scenario, and was documenting a large Soviet attack on an exposed German formation. Eight Soviet Rifle Corps against two German PzDs, a Luftwaffe Field Division and another unit. Despite outnumbering the Germans 6:1 (~240,000 / 40,000) and 10:1 in artillery, Soviet casualties were six times as heavy in a defeat (3,500 German losses against ~ 19,000 Soviet). This was not a common Soviet experience during the second/third period of the war (as defined by Glantz). Granted, the German PzDs likely skewed the result - but those formations were never intended to defend a position against a determined infantry assault. I wonder how the battle result was calculated.

From the perspective of Soviet operational art, the cardinal error in that particular facts scenario was the lack of Soviet armor involved. The infantry was envisioned by the Soviets in the Field Manual 1944 as a means of breaching the Main Line of Resistance - not necessarily taking ground. It would, however, occupy ground vacated by unhinged defensive forces busy fighting the development of the exploitation by Soviet armor.

That should be a lesson to you, dlazov; throw your armor in, son!

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 3/30/2010 10:21:47 PM   
ComradeP

 

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quote:

I'm unsure how to interpret the above. Are you referring to the first winter offensive? Or Uranus/Saturn/Mars? The first winter offensive, at the very least, was an exercise in opportunism - and exceedingly poorly executed, at that. That is to say, it was not a conscious 'backhanded blow', ala Manstein's Kharkov experiences in 1942/1943. Stalin committed the carefully husbanded strategic reserve into an offensive all along the front that was weak everywhere and strong nowhere, despite heavy opposition from Zhukov and the General Staff.


You're preaching to the choir when it comes to saying the first winter offensive was a failure considering what Stalin intended to do.

I was talking about the entire war in the East until mid-late 1943 more or less being a backhand blow on a nationwide scale. The Soviets depleted the Axis reserves and frontline strength, then crushed the weaker parts of the line, causing the stronger units to pull back too and not being able to attack.

quote:

A recent screenshot from another alpha tester had me wondering.


I also commented on that. If you look at the Attack Value vs Defensive Value, you'll see the Soviets didn't even have 2-1 odds. Panzer divisions were indeed not ideal for defence, especially not in difficult terrain, but if what you're facing is a giant wave of men coming at you, barely supported by armour, the battle quickly turns into a machine gunner's dream, and tanks are of course effective anti-infantry weapons when deployed against non-entrenched infantry.

Ironically, that main line of defence you refer to often wasn't where it should be by 1944. Hitler often specifically ordered reserves to stay at the actual front, instead of the main line of defence which should be about 12 kilometres to the rear of the first line of defences according to German defensive doctrine, with mobile forces possibly being stationed even further to the rear. If you place armoured formations directly at the front, they can't really respond to threats outside the sector they are covering. The exception being bad weather conditions where they would not be able to respond in any case. Elmo's AAR has shown that quite clearly, with Panzer formations not responding even though they were the operational reserve. In those cases, it might be necessary to plug a hole in the line with them.

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 3/30/2010 10:24:44 PM   
dlazov66


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quote:

That should be a lesson to you, dlazov; throw your armor in, son!


Very correct, but in this sector my tank bgds were refitting and training and I did not assign any indpt. tank units to that attack.

Needless to say without any armor support (that is until the AI got wise and sent some Pz & Pz.G units up north) I was able to kick back the line and link up Leningrad Front-Volkhov Front-2nd Baltic Front and push back the invaders several hexes deep. Now I need to rest as even though my Corps are in supply and have fuel they are at 50% TOE...

I just realized I hijacked PyleDrivers thread, many sorrows comrade, back to my hole I go...


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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 3/31/2010 2:33:55 AM   
PyleDriver


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T4...Well the Soviets hit 4th PzA's flanks hard. This will be interresting...




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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 3/31/2010 2:43:21 AM   
Captain B


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Pyle Driver, not to worry...a few frames ago you were talking about pockets in pockets.

The silver lining is that while costing you time, it may also give you a chance to destroy in detail some of the more mobile forces that could have given you headaches in a few moves. That is if you don't lose 4PzA in the process!

What was the order...oh yeah, find the enemy and destroy him.

Did your recon indicate the build up at all?



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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 3/31/2010 3:51:49 AM   
PyleDriver


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I said interresting, nothing about worry. Hell I'm not concerned when they come out of their holes, they make better targets...lol...

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 3/31/2010 4:22:13 AM   
PyleDriver


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(BAR) "The pocket"...Theres alot of power there, just watch where it heads...Remember Moscow is the goal...




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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 3/31/2010 8:23:20 AM   
malfid

 

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quote:

You're preaching to the choir when it comes to saying the first winter offensive was a failure considering what Stalin intended to do.


I spend a lot of time preaching to choirs.

quote:

I was talking about the entire war in the East until mid-late 1943 more or less being a backhand blow on a nationwide scale.


I see what you're saying - and in an overall sense I can agree - but from the historical perspective you will forgive my reluctance!

quote:

Panzer divisions were indeed not ideal for defence, especially not in difficult terrain, but if what you're facing is a giant wave of men coming at you, barely supported by armour, the battle quickly turns into a machine gunner's dream, and tanks are of course effective anti-infantry weapons when deployed against non-entrenched infantry.


My thoughts on this should perhaps go elsewhere (my profuse apologies, PyleDriver, I promise that this is my last post on the topic! Your AAR is excellent!), but I would venture the following:

1) German tanks of the war, especially, could in fact be characterized as extremely poor anti-infantry weapons. The Wehrmacht at no point emphasized HE capability for tanks in the same manner as the Soviets did (i.e. compare the HE ability of Soviet 76.2mm against German 75mm, and respective ammo loads of HE/AP). Their MMGs were extraordinarily limited in terms of ammunition and flexibility. The observability of surrounding terrain and small targets (say, for example, infantry) was low.

2) 240,000 riflemen in eight Rifle Corps - judged from afar - does, indeed, constitute a giant wave of men. But one cannot envision such a battlefield/zone of operations as flat grassland with few, if any, obstructions or terrain features. Rather, one must imagine an echeloned advance by tactical groups of infantry supported by enormous volumes of firepower (in this case, 5,000 guns), aviation (Il2s would greatly appreciate entrenched/buttoned up German armor refraining from maneuver) and utilizing terrain features to advance into the tactical zone unobserved. If confronted by armored pillboxes (this is what those tanks would amount to, in such an anti-infantry scenario), Soviet AT guns would be wheeled into direct fire positions from the third echelon, and would act as 'can openers'. AT rifles and grenades would further complicate the lives of the tankers in question. Logically, I concede, it does sound like a machinegunner's dream... In practice, though, I'm simply not sure.

quote:

Hitler often specifically ordered reserves to stay at the actual front, instead of the main line of defence which should be about 12 kilometres to the rear of the first line of defences according to German defensive doctrine, with mobile forces possibly being stationed even further to the rear.


Interestingly enough, this was often not the case. The Vistula-Oder Operation, for example, saw the initial penetration frustrated (though still successfully conducted) because the Soviets were unsure as to the German deployment. In this case, the German MLR (the echelon of which can vary) proved to be the third defensive belt, rather than the frontline. In that instance, the Soviets spent great quantities of ammunition and time bombarding empty trenches. Ditto for the Berlin operation (Seelow Heights). Hitler at times involved himself in battalion-level deployment - but only very rarely. He was more likely to order an area held, rather than a particular defensive line. In any case, the concentration of German forces in the first line was, to my knowledge, very uncommon...

quote:

If you place armoured formations directly at the front, they can't really respond to threats outside the sector they are covering.


Absolutely. Which is why I can only imagine that battle result if I envision it as a case of a pair of PzDs maneuvering against that Soviet force! Although, that introduces other logical difficulties.

But, really, I'm just being retentive. 

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 3/31/2010 6:39:33 PM   
PyleDriver


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(BAR) Well the Soviets have become a real pain in the ass. They hit my flank hard agian in the approch to Rostov...




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