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Pilot Training Exp Observations - 3/5/2010 2:35:05 PM   
Zemke


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From: Oklahoma
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Now take this with a grain of salt, but based on two PBEM games currently underway, I have noticed that pilots seem to gain increases in experience faster when set to "training", rather than executing missions. I have pilots who have an overall experience of 38-40 who were placed in an operational unit, and now have 30-40 missions and NOT increased in experience much at all, while pilots placed into training units have surpassed them. Is this a bug, or intentional, because it seems at odds with the intended process or stated process, that pilots would increase in experience faster conducting real world operational missions rather than training, which in principle I agree with 100%, mission for mission, when compared to training. Granted I have ran NO controlled tests, and do not intend to do so, but has anyone else noticed this or is there something I am missing?

Bottom-line: I get "seem" to get faster results if I set units to train a skill, rather than if the units is running missions of the same skill. Units conducting operational missions seem to increase very slowly, while units training seem to increase at a much more noticeable rate. Am I wrong?

One more caveat, I just installed the 3rd patch, so maybe this has been corrected, if indeed it was or is a mistake, (IF) I am even correct at all....like I said I am not sure, it just "seems" this way.

< Message edited by Zemke_4 -- 3/5/2010 3:33:18 PM >


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RE: Pilot Training Exp Observations - 3/5/2010 2:40:38 PM   
treespider


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Not sure if it is working or not ...but your observations create a nice conundrum for the player ...do I put my limited number of units into the line to fight or do I keep them out of the line training?

< Message edited by treespider -- 3/5/2010 2:41:04 PM >


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Post #: 2
RE: Pilot Training Exp Observations - 3/5/2010 2:40:52 PM   
WLockard


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Are your pilots in operational units flying missions? I think that if they are not engaging the enemy in some fashion, they will not gain much experience or skill.

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Post #: 3
RE: Pilot Training Exp Observations - 3/5/2010 2:49:25 PM   
bklooste

 

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Trainin is faster till you get to a decent level (50-60) after which combat is faster. Also if your units are in combat with experience of 38-40 your going to take heavy losses and get a lot of green recruits,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zemke_4

Now take this with a grain of salt, but based on two PBEM games currently underway, I have noticed that pilots seem to gain increases in experience faster when set to "training", rather than while executing missions. I have pilots who have an overall experience of 38-40 who were placed in an operational unit, and now have 30-40 missions and NOT increased in experience much at all, while pilots placed into training units have surpassed them. Is this a bug, or intentional, because it seems at odds with the intended process or stated process, that pilots would increase in experience faster conducting real world operational missions rather than training, which in principle I agree with 100%, mission for mission, when compared to training. Granted I have ran NO controlled tests, and do not intend to do so, but has anyone else noticed this or is there something I am missing?

Bottom-line: I get "seem" to get faster results if I set units to train a skill, rather than if the units is running missions of the same skill. Units conducting operational missions seem to increase very slowly, while units training seem to increase at a much more noticeable rate. Am I wrong?

One more caveat, I just installed the 3rd patch, so maybe this has been corrected, if indeed it was or is a mistake, (IF) I am even correct at all....like I said I am not sure, it just "seems" this way.



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Post #: 4
RE: Pilot Training Exp Observations - 3/5/2010 4:04:11 PM   
Zemke


Posts: 422
Joined: 1/14/2003
From: Oklahoma
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bklooste

Trainin is faster till you get to a decent level (50-60) after which combat is faster. Also if your units are in combat with experience of 38-40 your going to take heavy losses and get a lot of green recruits,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zemke_4

Now take this with a grain of salt, but based on two PBEM games currently underway, I have noticed that pilots seem to gain increases in experience faster when set to "training", rather than while executing missions. I have pilots who have an overall experience of 38-40 who were placed in an operational unit, and now have 30-40 missions and NOT increased in experience much at all, while pilots placed into training units have surpassed them. Is this a bug, or intentional, because it seems at odds with the intended process or stated process, that pilots would increase in experience faster conducting real world operational missions rather than training, which in principle I agree with 100%, mission for mission, when compared to training. Granted I have ran NO controlled tests, and do not intend to do so, but has anyone else noticed this or is there something I am missing?

Bottom-line: I get "seem" to get faster results if I set units to train a skill, rather than if the units is running missions of the same skill. Units conducting operational missions seem to increase very slowly, while units training seem to increase at a much more noticeable rate. Am I wrong?

One more caveat, I just installed the 3rd patch, so maybe this has been corrected, if indeed it was or is a mistake, (IF) I am even correct at all....like I said I am not sure, it just "seems" this way.



Really I am talking about more benign missions like ASW, I would think my "green" pilots would improve faster doing the "real thing", IF they did not die in a accident, instead of training, but they seem to stay the same, while pilots in units training on ASW are showing improvement. Now if they need to be in the 50-60 range to see improvement, well that is an explaination.

The flip side of this issue, is a pilot's over all experience level seems to not increase very quickly doing real missions,
(or at all), even if their primary skill is in the high 60s. In other words the pilot is a bomber pilot with a 65 high level bombing skill, but in the 40s in over all experience, and has 20-30 real missions, but has not (or seems to not) increase in overall experience. It would seem logical they would increase.....heck who knows. I am not asking for the "formula", just that what I think would be logical does not always work out in the game when it comes to pilot experience increases.

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Post #: 5
RE: Pilot Training Exp Observations - 3/5/2010 4:21:01 PM   
Panther Bait


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I think in WitP a pilot on a search type mission actually had to find something to improve his experience.  Flying a mission where nothing was sighted resulted in no experience gain (or very, very little).  I am not sure if it is the same in AE or not.

In some ways this makes sense.  If you fly an ASW mission and don't find anything, you don't know whether you missed the sub (a failure) or if there were none (a success, sort of).  Without feedback, you can't really learn much.  Only if you find a sub do you know what steps led to success. 

In training, not only are there probably more targets to find in every mission you fly, but you also have an instructer observing your actions.  Even if you don't find the sub, the instructer can say, "The sub was at xxx, yyy coordinates, but you missed him because...".  You are also getting probably getting some classroom training as well.

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Post #: 6
RE: Pilot Training Exp Observations - 3/5/2010 4:47:26 PM   
cap_and_gown


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My experience is as follows:

Newbie pilots come in around 35 exp. As they train up on a skill, that exp will climb into the 40s relatively rapidly, but then basically stop climbing.

Pilots that have been trained in some skill and start to execute that mission now start to gain exp into the mid 50s. But the skill level does not really increase very much.

Pilots that actually fly a real live combat mission (i.e. where there are enemy fighters present, whether they fight them or not) do gain exp into the 60s. Only when they start scoring kills do they start to climb into the 70s.

My bomber pilots set to ASW missions seem to gain exp faster than my fighter pilots set to CAP. Or maybe I am just more picky about having high experience fighter pilots than I am high experience army bomber pilots. At any rate, I have a lot more bomber pilots being dumped into my reserve as combat ready than I do fighter pilots. IJN fighter pilots seem especially hard to get up to the ~60 exp level.



< Message edited by cap_and_gown -- 3/5/2010 4:48:13 PM >

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RE: Pilot Training Exp Observations - 3/5/2010 5:32:44 PM   
pad152

 

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Keep your rear area groups on training!

Example: Fighter Group training: set to sweep 70% for 2 wks, then training on Escort 70% for 2 wks. At the end of 4 wks your pilots should have an experience level of 62-67%. Start sending some pilots to the reserve pool and have your front line units draw these named pilots with the highest air skills from the reserve pool, wash, rinse, repeat.

To help speed things up, send a high experienced pilot to one of these training groups, once you have sent 5 aces to the training pool!

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Post #: 8
RE: Pilot Training Exp Observations - 3/5/2010 5:52:12 PM   
cap_and_gown


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There is a lot of confusion in this thread between skill level and experience. You are not going to get your pilots into the 60s experience wise by training. You can get their skill level up into the 60s, even the 70s through training. But experience is a different matter. Experience gains are much harder to come by.

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Post #: 9
RE: Pilot Training Exp Observations - 3/5/2010 6:10:25 PM   
Zemke


Posts: 422
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From: Oklahoma
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My experiences seem to reflect yours. I do the same as you and I am VERY picky with fighter pilots. My comments about training were more geared toward non-fighter pilots skills.
Of course this training thing can be rationalized almost any way. But I think getting a pilot to 50+ in their core skill area is key.

I will pose another question; is overall experience a reflection of all skills, time as a pilot, missions flown, or a combination of all, some or part. I wrestle with this also.



quote:

ORIGINAL: cap_and_gown

My experience is as follows:

Newbie pilots come in around 35 exp. As they train up on a skill, that exp will climb into the 40s relatively rapidly, but then basically stop climbing.

Pilots that have been trained in some skill and start to execute that mission now start to gain exp into the mid 50s. But the skill level does not really increase very much.

Pilots that actually fly a real live combat mission (i.e. where there are enemy fighters present, whether they fight them or not) do gain exp into the 60s. Only when they start scoring kills do they start to climb into the 70s.

My bomber pilots set to ASW missions seem to gain exp faster than my fighter pilots set to CAP. Or maybe I am just more picky about having high experience fighter pilots than I am high experience army bomber pilots. At any rate, I have a lot more bomber pilots being dumped into my reserve as combat ready than I do fighter pilots. IJN fighter pilots seem especially hard to get up to the ~60 exp level.





< Message edited by Zemke_4 -- 3/5/2010 6:11:13 PM >


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Post #: 10
RE: Pilot Training Exp Observations - 3/5/2010 6:24:34 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24836
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From: San Antonio, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cap_and_gown

There is a lot of confusion in this thread between skill level and experience. You are not going to get your pilots into the 60s experience wise by training. You can get their skill level up into the 60s, even the 70s through training. But experience is a different matter. Experience gains are much harder to come by.

My experiences as well.

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Post #: 11
RE: Pilot Training Exp Observations - 3/5/2010 6:48:00 PM   
WLockard


Posts: 183
Joined: 11/13/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zemke_4

My experiences seem to reflect yours. I do the same as you and I am VERY picky with fighter pilots. My comments about training were more geared toward non-fighter pilots skills.
Of course this training thing can be rationalized almost any way. But I think getting a pilot to 50+ in their core skill area is key.

I will pose another question; is overall experience a reflection of all skills, time as a pilot, missions flown, or a combination of all, some or part. I wrestle with this also.



quote:

ORIGINAL: cap_and_gown

My experience is as follows:

Newbie pilots come in around 35 exp. As they train up on a skill, that exp will climb into the 40s relatively rapidly, but then basically stop climbing.

Pilots that have been trained in some skill and start to execute that mission now start to gain exp into the mid 50s. But the skill level does not really increase very much.

Pilots that actually fly a real live combat mission (i.e. where there are enemy fighters present, whether they fight them or not) do gain exp into the 60s. Only when they start scoring kills do they start to climb into the 70s.

My bomber pilots set to ASW missions seem to gain exp faster than my fighter pilots set to CAP. Or maybe I am just more picky about having high experience fighter pilots than I am high experience army bomber pilots. At any rate, I have a lot more bomber pilots being dumped into my reserve as combat ready than I do fighter pilots. IJN fighter pilots seem especially hard to get up to the ~60 exp level.






My understanding is that experience is used when there isn't a specfic skill to be used. So landing accident rolls and such use experience.

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Post #: 12
RE: Pilot Training Exp Observations - 3/5/2010 7:06:02 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 24210
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zemke_4
... I would think my "green" pilots would improve faster doing the "real thing",


Of course the game has formulae to simulate the way the Devs believe it should happen, but look at the real world. If you get lots of practice doing something badly, then you will be really good at doing it badly! Of course practice helps you improve, but also having guidance in what to practice and how to practice it is superior. And you need experience doing it the right way. Even high performers benefit from training (consider that elite troops train frequently), even though at that level it's more of a peer to peer training.

So in the game, if they've set it up so that those with less experience benefit more from training than from actual missions, I think they got it right. After all, training includes practice doing it, but under guidance to help with corrections.

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Post #: 13
RE: Pilot Training Exp Observations - 3/5/2010 9:24:18 PM   
Zemke


Posts: 422
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From: Oklahoma
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I am not saying the devs got it right or wrong, I am just trying to understand it better so I can make better decisions. What I think really doesn't matter one way or the other, but I do want my actions to reflect the most efficient means of getting pilots who are trained well for combat.
quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zemke_4
... I would think my "green" pilots would improve faster doing the "real thing",


Of course the game has formulae to simulate the way the Devs believe it should happen, but look at the real world. If you get lots of practice doing something badly, then you will be really good at doing it badly! Of course practice helps you improve, but also having guidance in what to practice and how to practice it is superior. And you need experience doing it the right way. Even high performers benefit from training (consider that elite troops train frequently), even though at that level it's more of a peer to peer training.

So in the game, if they've set it up so that those with less experience benefit more from training than from actual missions, I think they got it right. After all, training includes practice doing it, but under guidance to help with corrections.



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Post #: 14
RE: Pilot Training Exp Observations - 3/5/2010 9:54:25 PM   
pompack


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From: University Park, Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: cap_and_gown

There is a lot of confusion in this thread between skill level and experience. You are not going to get your pilots into the 60s experience wise by training. You can get their skill level up into the 60s, even the 70s through training. But experience is a different matter. Experience gains are much harder to come by.

My experiences as well.




Increasing experience requires, well ... experience

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Post #: 15
RE: Pilot Training Exp Observations - 3/12/2010 1:43:17 PM   
topeverest


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Agree with statements that training will increase skill faster, especially in a choice against setting naval mission in a quiet sector. In my view, I have not seen anything to raise caution flags. Experience will creep up during training - and jump up (relatively) for surviving pilots after combat. Just another way of saying that highly experienced pilots are among your most prescious assets.

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