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RE: HPS new games

 
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RE: HPS new games - 3/14/2010 11:42:07 PM   
cmurphy625


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Temptation is getting stronger and stronger!!!.. I'll have to see what Grim and Judge have to say.. also been eyeing Over Flanders Field (wwI expansion for MS Flight Sim).. but the shipping for that is ridiculous.. so leaning towards Midway..

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Post #: 91
RE: HPS new games - 3/15/2010 12:00:02 AM   
Grim.Reaper


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cmurphy625

Temptation is getting stronger and stronger!!!.. I'll have to see what Grim and Judge have to say.. also been eyeing Over Flanders Field (wwI expansion for MS Flight Sim).. but the shipping for that is ridiculous.. so leaning towards Midway..

I think my game should arrive Monday or Tuesday at the latest so I will give some impressions then. I have read about this game in a couple of forums, so my expectations are very high right now:)

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Post #: 92
RE: HPS new games - 3/15/2010 2:23:12 AM   
Prince of Eckmühl


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There are just so many cool little things that the developer has built into this game. For instance, the air units have an ammo supply that the game tracks. So, an aircraft doesn't have to be shot down or fuel deprived to be hors de combat. There are some things that I don't completely understand. I'd elaborate, but for all that I know, they're explained somewhere in the nine PDF files that come with the game.

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Post #: 93
RE: HPS new games - 3/16/2010 1:43:15 AM   
BASB


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I bought the game yesterday from NWS. I noticed earlier in this post that a\c ammo tracked, is ordnance tracked for bombs and torps for carrier a\c?

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Post #: 94
RE: HPS new games - 3/16/2010 2:52:56 AM   
garymc

 

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I do need to sharpen the existing scenarios in terms of how much ordinance was carried on each carrier, but that function is in the game.

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Post #: 95
RE: HPS new games - 3/16/2010 3:29:02 AM   
Prince of Eckmühl


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@garymc,

Do carriers have a value for rate of turn (maneuverability)?

If so, where can those values be found?

And a third question...

Some WW2 carriers had three elevators.

Relative to vessels with fewer lifts, do those carriers benefit in any way?



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Post #: 96
RE: HPS new games - 3/16/2010 3:30:17 AM   
BASB


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is it modifiable from the gamer prospective?

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Post #: 97
RE: HPS new games - 3/16/2010 3:37:30 AM   
Grim.Reaper


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My copy of Midway arrived today...installed it and tried the "Getting Started" game. I don't have many comments right now, does seem to be a game that I will need to wrap my head around. Seems like it will take a lot of planning and thinking to win at this one, which is a good thing for me.

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Post #: 98
RE: HPS new games - 3/16/2010 4:48:59 AM   
garymc

 

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Ok, let's see here

The various ships do have different turning rates, but I don't know that they're documented ingame anywhere. It's pretty much what you expect. A CV or BB will turn much more slowly than a DD.

The timeframe on spotting is pdt set, and not per carrier, so, it doesn't model the differences between 3 vs 2 vs 1 elevator, unless the .pdt file is specifically set as a global value.

Oh, the .pdt is the "Parameter Data Table" file, where alot of those values are found.

As to moddability, to a certain extent, yes it is.

1) There is a .pdt file editor included, where you can fiddle with those values.
2) You can modify pictures
3) You can create new OOBs or modify the orders of battle found in game.

What is -not- moddable is the game database, which contains ships, planes and weapons. So, you can't add new ships or planes, or change the characteristics of the ones included.
Also, you cannot make new landmasses.

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Post #: 99
RE: HPS new games - 3/16/2010 4:52:34 AM   
Prince of Eckmühl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grim.Reaper

My copy of Midway arrived today...installed it and tried the "Getting Started" game. I don't have many comments right now, does seem to be a game that I will need to wrap my head around. Seems like it will take a lot of planning and thinking to win at this one, which is a good thing for me.


You will need to read about air-operations in:

nvc.pdf (Main Program Help file)
started.pdf (Getting Started)
users.pdf (Users Manual)

You'll also want to peruse the parameter data, preferably through the editor so that you can take some mental or written notes. One value that you'll see that's critical is the "spot" time, the time to place an aircraft on deck so that it can participate in a mission. The value isn't variable, BTW. It takes two minutes. By example, if you want to spot thirty planes, it'll always take an hour. In turn, to remove an aircraft-unit from the flight deck, select it and click "spotting" to reverse the process (which brought it topside) and return it below-decks.

Once your aircraft are on deck and ready to be deployed on a mission, it's important to remember that they can't launch unless:

-their carrier is headed into the wind
-their carrier is not going too fast or too slow
-their carrier isn't in the process of spotting aircraft; the elevators can't be in use
-during the course of launching aircraft, violating any of these rules will interrupt/delay any launches that are pending.

There's a lot more, but the items that I cite above are "the usual suspects" when it comes to bungled air-ops, at least in my experience thus far.

If you have any questions, please ask. This may be our only chance to publicly-document some of this stuff.



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RE: HPS new games - 3/16/2010 4:57:57 AM   
Prince of Eckmühl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: garymc

The various ships do have different turning rates, but I don't know that they're documented ingame anywhere. It's pretty much what you expect.


I was relatively certain that this was the case. In-game, the Soryu and Hiryu appear to be very maneuverable, particularly when compared to the carriers built on battlecruiser hulls (Kaga, Akagi, Lexington and Saratoga). I'd expect that the Yorktown and Zuikaku class fall somewhere in between.

quote:

The timeframe on spotting is pdt set, and not per carrier, so, it doesn't model the differences between 3 vs 2 vs 1 elevator, unless the .pdt file is specifically set as a global value.


By "global," I assume that it's an all-or-nothing arrangement. We can advantage Side A or Side B, by say 20%, but we can't distinguish between different carriers on the same side, between the Saratoga and an Essex class, for instance.


< Message edited by Prince of Eckmühl -- 3/16/2010 5:28:21 AM >


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RE: HPS new games - 3/16/2010 12:28:15 PM   
Airborne82nd


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Also regarding spotting: if you've spotted say, all of your SBDs and TBDs, they will show that they are moving to the flight deck (or visaversa), but only the one with the * asterisk is current. This is important because if you have 4 groups of SBDs on deck but don't want to wait for all the others to come up (maybe your scouts spotted a close threat), you can respot them to cancel the operation. Then, once the final * one is spotted, you can launch the ready planes on a mission.

I'm not sure of the order of spotting. Does it spot in the order you clicked them or the order showing on the carrier roster? I haven't experimented with that much but I suspect it is the latter.

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RE: HPS new games - 3/16/2010 1:02:09 PM   
Grim.Reaper


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grim.Reaper

My copy of Midway arrived today...installed it and tried the "Getting Started" game. I don't have many comments right now, does seem to be a game that I will need to wrap my head around. Seems like it will take a lot of planning and thinking to win at this one, which is a good thing for me.


You will need to read about air-operations in:

nvc.pdf (Main Program Help file)
started.pdf (Getting Started)
users.pdf (Users Manual)

You'll also want to peruse the parameter data, preferably through the editor so that you can take some mental or written notes. One value that you'll see that's critical is the "spot" time, the time to place an aircraft on deck so that it can participate in a mission. The value isn't variable, BTW. It takes two minutes. By example, if you want to spot thirty planes, it'll always take an hour. In turn, to remove an aircraft-unit from the flight deck, select it and click "spotting" to reverse the process (which brought it topside) and return it below-decks.

Once your aircraft are on deck and ready to be deployed on a mission, it's important to remember that they can't launch unless:

-their carrier is headed into the wind
-their carrier is not going too fast or too slow
-their carrier isn't in the process of spotting aircraft; the elevators can't be in use
-during the course of launching aircraft, violating any of these rules will interrupt/delay any launches that are pending.

There's a lot more, but the items that I cite above are "the usual suspects" when it comes to bungled air-ops, at least in my experience thus far.

If you have any questions, please ask. This may be our only chance to publicly-document some of this stuff.



Thank you for the tips. It may be obvious, but this game seems to be all about flight operations and management and timing of those actions. Even on Getting Started game, Japan has sunk my carrier:) I have to figure out what the appropriate way is to divide my forces between searches, patrols, and strikes. Gives you an appreciation of what commanding officers had to go through, I just thought they launched planes and attacked things:)

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Post #: 103
RE: HPS new games - 3/16/2010 3:25:35 PM   
Rasputitsa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: watchtower
My first was a squad leader type game that was for the Atari 800 and came with a gameboard and counters with the puter doing the calcs, wish I could remember what it was called. That and a D-Day game that SSI did - still hooked on wargames, gosh! I been sitting in front of a monitor killing pixel Germans for twenty five years!


It was called 'Close Assault', which I still have, with my Atari 800 plugged in and ready to go. It gave some of the most memorable games, throwing in sachel charges and storming the houses in the village, it was great.

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Post #: 104
RE: HPS new games - 3/16/2010 4:01:52 PM   
Prince of Eckmühl


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@garymc:

The parameter data file(s) contain(s) a value for Aircraft Ops that's defined on page 14 of the Main Program Help File as follows:

"The Aircraft Ops is the maximum number of aircraft that can be rearmed simultaneously and the number that can be refueled simultaneously, on a carrier or at an airbase."

Is there anything in the hard-coded data which modifies this value, the size of the ship or base perhaps?


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RE: HPS new games - 3/16/2010 4:28:57 PM   
garymc

 

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No there isn't. For land bases, you can set the size of the base, but that doesn't modify the Aircraft Ops value. That said, when it comes to land bases, we're typically talking about Midway or Henderson or even the bombed out remains of Orote (Guam), so it's not quite the same as the air ops which would have been conducted out of Wheeler in Mid 44 or the like.

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Post #: 106
RE: HPS new games - 3/16/2010 5:08:24 PM   
Prince of Eckmühl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: garymc

No there isn't. For land bases, you can set the size of the base, but that doesn't modify the Aircraft Ops value. That said, when it comes to land bases, we're typically talking about Midway or Henderson or even the bombed out remains of Orote (Guam), so it's not quite the same as the air ops which would have been conducted out of Wheeler in Mid 44 or the like.


Good enough.

In regard to fueling and rearmament, how does the program determine WHAT aircraft get priority, or is it simply a matter of the order in which the aircraft appear in the queue?

In that same vane, do units that are being fueled always go on to be rearmed? If that's that the case, it would appear that a base or carrier will refuel and rearm twenty-four aircraft per hour.

And a final question (a lazy one, because this may be in the docs). Does fueling and armament interrupt launches and landings?



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RE: HPS new games - 3/16/2010 10:05:50 PM   
watchtower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa


quote:

ORIGINAL: watchtower
My first was a squad leader type game that was for the Atari 800 and came with a gameboard and counters with the puter doing the calcs, wish I could remember what it was called. That and a D-Day game that SSI did - still hooked on wargames, gosh! I been sitting in front of a monitor killing pixel Germans for twenty five years!


It was called 'Close Assault', which I still have, with my Atari 800 plugged in and ready to go. It gave some of the most memorable games, throwing in sachel charges and storming the houses in the village, it was great.


Cheers, that's the one. Loved it. Almost feel like getting an 800 and looking out for it on eBay.

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Post #: 108
RE: HPS new games - 3/17/2010 1:22:53 PM   
RedArgo


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I finished my first run through the tutorial mission last night. I read the pdf for the tutorial and then gave it a shot.

Starting off, I launched my CAP and search planes and then began spotting for a strike. A long period (shortened by time compression) later I got the message that my southern most scout had sighted an enemy carrier.

I immediately turned in to the wind, stopped spotting the planes still in the hanger, and launched my strike of 10 F4Fs and 18 SBDs. I changed headed to W and began spotting my Buffaloes and TBDs. I intended for the Buffaloes to go first, but the TBDs went instead. I'll have to read the longer pdf to figure that out.

Anyway, about half way to the target, my strike ran in to a Japanese inbound strike. The Wildcats peeled off and engaged the Zeroes. I lost 3 or 4 and 4 ran out of ammo and headed home. The remaining fighters rejoined the strike.

I had 9 Devastators ready, so I launched them with no fighter protection and tried to get some Buffaloes ready, but it was too late. Not sure why, but my CAP didn't engage the strike automatically, so I tried to point them at the enemy, but they flew right by.

A whole bunch of Vals dropped on Saratoga and she took 4 hits, ending her air operations for this mission.

Meanwhile, my strike finally caught up with the Japanese CV. The Wildcats engaged the Zeroes allowing the SBDs to get through with on one plane lost. There is definately tension as I watch my bombers line up and go in after the CV. Unfortunately, I got 0 for 17 hits. Not sure if I was just unlucky or if I did something wrong, but it was dissapointing. (Where is Sid Mieirs making the player feel good formula here?!?!?!)

Some time later, near the end of the scenario, my TBDs finally caught up with the Japanese, but without any fighter cover all nine were shot from the sky before ever getting close enough to drop. That seems realistic.

It was a major defeat for the US as Saratoga was at 53% and burning and all my CAP, search and strike planes had to ditch.

After the scenario is over you can see all the forces and my TF was being tracked by two Japanes search planes that I never detected.

I'll get them next time!

A couple questions before I read the book. Should my CAP have engaged the incoming strike on their own? And, how do I tell what the range is to a target and what the range is for my planes. It says there should be a range circle for aircraft, but I didn't see it, unless the map is too small and the circle is off the map.

Looks like a good $30 spent.

Bill

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Post #: 109
RE: HPS new games - 3/17/2010 4:58:37 PM   
garymc

 

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The Aircraft Range Circle is typically only seen on the jump map (lower left) as is generally 200 miles (or more)

That said, the best way to check range:

View=> Distances

That will display a series of range circles at 50nm intervals (ie one at 50, one at 100, one at 150 and so forth).

As for the SBD's... that's just bad luck :( Their attacks are automated. That said, the ability of that carrier to go 35kts does make hitting more difficult... heh.

If you're having trouble sequencing your spotting... one easy solution is spot them in the order you want. What I mean is, you simply don't give the TBD orders to spot until the F2As are already spotted (you can do it while the last F2A group is spotting)

Not entirely sure what happened with the CAP... :/ That's one I'd have to see to figure out I'm afraid.

Oh, and one final note for all. For those wondering why the Saratoga has an F2A group on board. The "getting started" scenario is a "cut down" version of the hypothetical Wake Island scenario. At the time, the Saratoga had a marine F2A group aboard that they were going to deliver to Wake (of course the Japanese took the island before it got there).

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Post #: 110
RE: HPS new games - 3/17/2010 5:02:10 PM   
garymc

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

quote:

ORIGINAL: garymc

No there isn't. For land bases, you can set the size of the base, but that doesn't modify the Aircraft Ops value. That said, when it comes to land bases, we're typically talking about Midway or Henderson or even the bombed out remains of Orote (Guam), so it's not quite the same as the air ops which would have been conducted out of Wheeler in Mid 44 or the like.


Good enough.

In regard to fueling and rearmament, how does the program determine WHAT aircraft get priority, or is it simply a matter of the order in which the aircraft appear in the queue?

In that same vane, do units that are being fueled always go on to be rearmed? If that's that the case, it would appear that a base or carrier will refuel and rearm twenty-four aircraft per hour.

And a final question (a lazy one, because this may be in the docs). Does fueling and armament interrupt launches and landings?




Hm...on your questions, there's some stuff here I'd need to bounce off of JT (in terms of the heirarchy). Heh, even with your second question, i'm not entirely sure. My games rarely left enough carrier around to allow for rearming (oops).

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Post #: 111
RE: HPS new games - 3/17/2010 8:14:15 PM   
Prince of Eckmühl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedArgo

Starting off, I launched my CAP and search planes and then began spotting for a strike. A long period (shortened by time compression) later I got the message that my southern most scout had sighted an enemy carrier.


That's always a tense moment in the game. I have to discipline myself not to over-react. When played in real-time/1-1, there's certainly time for deliberation, not that you can dawdle, mind you!

quote:

I immediately turned in to the wind, stopped spotting the planes still in the hanger, and launched my strike of 10 F4Fs and 18 SBDs. I changed headed to W and began spotting my Buffaloes and TBDs. I intended for the Buffaloes to go first, but the TBDs went instead. I'll have to read the longer pdf to figure that out.


Someone from the developer will have to confirm this, but I believe that the TBD went first because they are first in the queue. I work around this by setting a takeoff time for the elements of the PACKAGE that's fairly distant, four hours, perhaps. Then, when I'm ready to start putting the elements up, I go in to the Packages dialogue, and activate them in the order that I wish.

quote:

Anyway, about half way to the target, my strike ran in to a Japanese inbound strike. The Wildcats peeled off and engaged the Zeroes. I lost 3 or 4 and 4 ran out of ammo and headed home. The remaining fighters rejoined the strike.


I see this all the time. Logically, it would occur most often when you maintain a constant heading relative to the point at which you were detected. The more that you deviate from the heading, the less likely your strike is to run head-long into that of your adversary. Of course, the more that you shift course and speed, the more tardy your own strike is likely to be.

quote:

I had 9 Devastators ready, so I launched them with no fighter protectionand tried to get some Buffaloes ready, but it was too late.


The Devastators rarely get a hit. They and their torpedoes are too slow, and the Hiryu and Soryu are little mongooses.

quote:

Not sure why, but my CAP didn't engage the strike automatically, so I tried to point them at the enemy, but they flew right by.


Could you have inadvertently taken control of them from the AI? If you do so, the AI is no longer directing them. If they are misbehaving you can set them to attack manually. You don't need to use the target button to do so. Click on your fighter; then click on the target. If it engages properly, the target will turn yellow.

quote:

A whole bunch of Vals dropped on Saratoga and she took 4 hits, ending her air operations for this mission.


As the designer's notes indicated, this is always a bad scene. It's really about how bad it's going to be, bad, or really, really bad.

quote:

Meanwhile, my strike finally caught up with the Japanese CV. The Wildcats engaged the Zeroes allowing the SBDs to get through with on one plane lost. There is definately tension as I watch my bombers line up and go in after the CV. Unfortunately, I got 0 for 17 hits. Not sure if I was just unlucky or if I did something wrong, but it was dissapointing. (Where is Sid Mieirs making the player feel good formula here?!?!?!)

Some time later, near the end of the scenario, my TBDs finally caught up with the Japanese, but without any fighter cover all nine were shot from the sky before ever getting close enough to drop. That seems realistic.


The vignette that you've detailed above can swing both ways. I've had two-plane VS sections score hits on carriers that crippled the ship. That said, if you had 17 VB go in unmolested and score no hits, that's pretty bad luck. I believe that the flight that crippled the Soryu at Midway was only three aircraft strong.

quote:

It was a major defeat for the US as Saratoga was at 53% and burning and all my CAP, search and strike planes had to ditch.

After the scenario is over you can see all the forces and my TF was being tracked by two Japanes search planes that I never detected.

I'll get them next time!


Apart from ANYTHING that you could have done differently, there's a powerful amount of luck built into this game. For instance, I played a game where my VS squadron NEVER found the enemy - not going out, or coming back home. Given the vector that the AI strike approached me on, I'm pretty certain that the Japanese had wandered into some clouds and were concealed for much of the game. That's just one example of the sort of thing that can make it essentially impossible to win (at times).

quote:

Should my CAP have engaged the incoming strike on their own? And, how do I tell what the range is to a target and what the range is for my planes. It says there should be a range circle for aircraft, but I didn't see it, unless the map is too small and the circle is off the map.


If they are setup properly, they ought to engage. On the circles/rings, they have to be turned on above, in the VIEW options, I believe.

quote:

Looks like a good $30 spent.


Indeed.


< Message edited by Prince of Eckmühl -- 3/17/2010 8:15:36 PM >


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Post #: 112
RE: HPS new games - 3/17/2010 9:06:10 PM   
garymc

 

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Aside from clouds, as I said in the designer's notes, the other big risk in searching is if you allocate too few planes to too much arc. You can literally get "dead zones" between aircraft as their arcs separate. I never did figure out a good rule of thumb for that *L*

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Post #: 113
RE: HPS new games - 3/17/2010 9:11:01 PM   
rahamy

 

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I've had pretty good luck with 10 degrees or less between flights.

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RE: HPS new games - 3/17/2010 9:35:21 PM   
Prince of Eckmühl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rahamy

I've had pretty good luck with 10 degrees or less between flights.


A feature of the game that's not immediately apparent (via the PDF docs) is the ability to adjust search missions while they are underway. It's done through the PACKAGES dialogue and allows for changes to the mission arc.

In a scenario like Wake Island, I collapse the arc from sixty or eighty degrees down to ten or twenty (after I've found the enemy TF). That brings all my VS into play and assures that I don't lose track of the enemy carriers if my scout is shot down by an aggressive CAP.


< Message edited by Prince of Eckmühl -- 3/17/2010 9:49:51 PM >


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RE: HPS new games - 3/17/2010 11:57:40 PM   
Airborne82nd


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Also, you can manually take over a search flight and vector him to maintain contact if a shadower gets shot down. Once you do this, you have to micromanage him but it does work.

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RE: HPS new games - 3/18/2010 12:24:01 AM   
cmurphy625


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Decisions, Decisions Decisions... This... or Over Flanders Fields.. or wait.. just a lil bit for Gettysburg!!!!

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Post #: 117
RE: HPS new games - 3/18/2010 1:02:11 AM   
Prince of Eckmühl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Airborne82nd

Also, you can manually take over a search flight and vector him to maintain contact if a shadower gets shot down. Once you do this, you have to micromanage him but it does work.


Ah, a veteran!

Question for you: Do you think that the fog-of-war element of the game is adequate? True, we don't know where the enemy is until we locate him. But so long as we've got a good visual on him, we know exactly what he's got. That's in fairly stark contrast to other games that throw you all sorts of curves regarding OOB, position and so on.

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Government is the opiate of the masses.

(in reply to Airborne82nd)
Post #: 118
RE: HPS new games - 3/18/2010 4:21:12 AM   
Airborne82nd


Posts: 67
Joined: 9/18/2002
From: Evans City, PA, USA
Status: offline
Agreed! I would like to see some false reports. Also, the a/c fuel (unlimited) is kinda silly. I would like to see this modeled better.

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"Land Soft, Kill Quiet"

(in reply to Prince of Eckmühl)
Post #: 119
RE: HPS new games - 3/18/2010 4:56:46 AM   
Prince of Eckmühl


Posts: 2449
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cmurphy625

Decisions, Decisions Decisions... This... or Over Flanders Fields.. or wait.. just a lil bit for Gettysburg!!!!


I dunno. HPS Midway game is thin in a few places, but plenty thick in a lot of others.

That said, I've probably log'd forty hours on Midway, thus far, and I'm about 2% into the single-player content. This game really does appear to have some legs on it, particularly when you consider the possibilities of either cooperative or competitive multiplayer.

I'm an OFF driver too, btw, but I'm looking at Rise of Flight as an alternative because the CFS3 engine is darn near as old as RB3D!

The new Gettysburg game should be cool, for IP play, but I'm not sure how it will be superior to TC2M for solo-only players. There are a lot of really fine gentlemen working on it, real Civil-War-Nuts, and I wish them all the best.


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Government is the opiate of the masses.

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