Matrix Games Forums

 Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

how to use the attack planner

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Norm Koger's The Operational Art Of War III >> how to use the attack planner Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
how to use the attack planner - 2/14/2010 10:28:48 AM   
larryfulkerson

 

Posts: 22427
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ, USA, Earth, Solar System
Status: online 		I've had somebody ask me how to use the attack planner so I put together an html document with instructions and pictures to explain it briefly. Somebody else might have that same question and if you do you can find the document here:

http://www.mediafire.com/?d2mnmm5n1n0
Post #: 1
RE: how to use the attack planner - 2/14/2010 2:48:17 PM   
m_shane_perkins


Posts: 39
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline 		Thanks Larry. I thought I previously understood what the boxes in the atk planner meant, but I really didn't. Thanks for explaining.

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 2
RE: how to use the attack planner - 2/14/2010 8:01:00 PM   
larryfulkerson

 

Posts: 22427
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ, USA, Earth, Solar System
Status: online 		I forgot to explain the color of the flags on the units




Attachment (1)

(in reply to m_shane_perkins)
Post #: 3
RE: how to use the attack planner - 2/15/2010 6:20:46 PM   
vsadek


Posts: 115
Joined: 1/3/2010
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Good man! Thank you Larry for this explanation.

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 4
RE: how to use the attack planner - 2/15/2010 8:40:54 PM   
MarGol


Posts: 85
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline 		Another useful thing about the attack planner: The 'up' and 'down' arrows in the planner can be used to scroll through all attacks planned so far. I find this handy when I realize that some already planned attack will burn the turn, and want to find that particular attack (watch the 'Time expended' boxes until you find the attack with more than one gold box).

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 5
RE: how to use the attack planner - 2/17/2010 5:59:31 PM   
sapper32


Posts: 874
Joined: 5/7/2007
From: Warminster England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MarGol

Another useful thing about the attack planner: The 'up' and 'down' arrows in the planner can be used to scroll through all attacks planned so far. I find this handy when I realize that some already planned attack will burn the turn, and want to find that particular attack (watch the 'Time expended' boxes until you find the attack with more than one gold box).


I have never realized that thanks for that little gem of information Martin

(in reply to MarGol)
Post #: 6
RE: how to use the attack planner - 11/18/2010 10:12:03 PM   
larryfulkerson

 

Posts: 22427
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ, USA, Earth, Solar System
Status: online 		Ok, the Attack Planner has changed a bit and now we have an AR number to gauge things by. I have a question though about what the number means. In the picture below I see an AR number over 300+ and STILL the attack planner says that I should expect "heavy losses". Why would losses be heavy if I have more than a 3 to 1 advantage over the defender?




Attachment (1)

(in reply to sapper32)
Post #: 7
RE: how to use the attack planner - 11/19/2010 1:14:15 PM   
MilRevKo

 

Posts: 291
Joined: 11/8/2006
From: Main Line, PA
Status: offline 		Can you describe: No coop=severe turn burn?

THX

_____________________________

Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes -Publilius Syrus

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 8
RE: how to use the attack planner - 11/19/2010 7:07:16 PM   
larryfulkerson

 

Posts: 22427
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ, USA, Earth, Solar System
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: MilRevKo
Can you describe: No coop=severe turn burn?

Yes, if there's a unit involved in the combat and it's one of the no cooperation ones, then the turn will suffer more of a turn burn than it usually would have. That's my understanding.

(in reply to MilRevKo)
Post #: 9
RE: how to use the attack planner - 11/20/2010 5:18:31 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 7656
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

Ok, the Attack Planner has changed a bit and now we have an AR number to gauge things by. I have a question though about what the number means. In the picture below I see an AR number over 300+ and STILL the attack planner says that I should expect "heavy losses". Why would losses be heavy if I have more than a 3 to 1 advantage over the defender?


The AR is only concerned with whether the attack will be evaluated as an ant attack to one extent or another. In this case it won't be. (Any AR value of 100 or more is guaranteed to be a normal attack). The 348 number seems a little large, just looking at it, but remember that attacker AP and AT values have to be considered proportionately to the defender composition. Maybe that's why.

The evaluation of the attack itself, doesn't look so favorable - not much better than 1:1.

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 10
RE: how to use the attack planner - 11/20/2010 10:51:59 PM   
toawfan

 

Posts: 126
Joined: 11/16/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

Ok, the Attack Planner has changed a bit and now we have an AR number to gauge things by. I have a question though about what the number means. In the picture below I see an AR number over 300+ and STILL the attack planner says that I should expect "heavy losses". Why would losses be heavy if I have more than a 3 to 1 advantage over the defender?


The AR is only concerned with whether the attack will be evaluated as an ant attack to one extent or another. In this case it won't be. (Any AR value of 100 or more is guaranteed to be a normal attack). The 348 number seems a little large, just looking at it, but remember that attacker AP and AT values have to be considered proportionately to the defender composition. Maybe that's why.

The evaluation of the attack itself, doesn't look so favorable - not much better than 1:1.


I don't understand this answer. I don't know what an ant attack is. Also don't know what AR means and what the 348 is really telling me.

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 11
RE: how to use the attack planner - 11/21/2010 2:04:29 AM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 7656
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: toawfan

I don't understand this answer. I don't know what an ant attack is. Also don't know what AR means and what the 348 is really telling me.


Read section III of the 3.4 "What's New".

(in reply to toawfan)
Post #: 12
RE: how to use the attack planner - 12/11/2010 12:42:37 PM   
BigDuke66


Posts: 1613
Joined: 2/1/2001
From: Terra
Status: offline 		A question regarding the turn burn, has the unit color schema an impact on the turn burn even if a gold flag appears?

I just try to find out why I have such a high turn burn in the Poland 39 scenario, in that scenario some units have a totally different color schema but look similar to the others by using modified graphic files.
To see what I mean simply move the graphic files out of the Graphics/Poland 39 folder and load it.

_____________________________

JOIN The Blitz Wargaming Club
JOIN Napoleonic Wargame Club
JOIN American Civil War Game Club

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 13
RE: how to use the attack planner - 12/11/2010 7:13:02 PM   
toawfan

 

Posts: 126
Joined: 11/16/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: toawfan

I don't understand this answer. I don't know what an ant attack is. Also don't know what AR means and what the 348 is really telling me.


Read section III of the 3.4 "What's New".


I have and still don't understand. Sorry. What does 348 really mean? 348 percent of what?

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 14
RE: how to use the attack planner - 12/11/2010 10:59:57 PM   
larryfulkerson

 

Posts: 22427
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ, USA, Earth, Solar System
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: toawfan
quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
quote:

ORIGINAL: toawfan
I don't understand this answer. I don't know what an ant attack is. Also don't know what AR means and what the 348 is really telling me.

Read section III of the 3.4 "What's New".

I have and still don't understand. Sorry. What does 348 really mean? 348 percent of what?

I'd like to hear the answer to that myself. And I've read the 'What's New' also.

(in reply to toawfan)
Post #: 15
RE: how to use the attack planner - 12/11/2010 11:19:16 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 7656
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: toawfan

I have and still don't understand. Sorry. What does 348 really mean? 348 percent of what?


Then I'm assuming you now know what an "ant" unit is:

There are two new features that attempt to make the employment of “Ant Units” (very small and inconsequential units relative to most units in the scenario) useless.

If so, the AR is used to determine if the attack is an ant attack, and penalize it accordingly if it is one.

The ratio is Attacker Assault Strength to Defender Defense Strength. So, 348 means that the Attacker Assault Strength is 3.48 times the Defender Defense Strength.

Any AR greater than 100 is guaranteed to not be evaluated as an ant attack, and will, therefore, not be penalized in any way. (It will be resolved just as attacks have always been resolved in earlier versions).

As the AR drops below 100 there is more and more chance of penalties for being evaluated as an ant attack.

(in reply to toawfan)
Post #: 16
RE: how to use the attack planner - 12/12/2010 12:43:24 AM   
larryfulkerson

 

Posts: 22427
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ, USA, Earth, Solar System
Status: online 		Oh.  Okie dokie.  *Now* I understand.  Thanks for that.

< Message edited by larryfulkerson -- 12/28/2010 5:26:22 AM >

_____________________________

fulkersonlarry60(at)gmail(dot)com

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 17
RE: how to use the attack planner - 12/14/2010 2:20:13 AM   
ralphtrick

 

Posts: 5104
Joined: 7/27/2003
From: Colorado Springs
Status: offline 		A couple of notes on this item. I believe this is explained in the 'what's new'

Since toaw doesn't have simple attack and defense strengths, it also takes into account the percent of the defenders who are armored. If you've got infantry against tanks, you're going to see a pretty small value for the AR. It's mainly there to show you if you are going to execute an attack at less than 1:1 odds (100) which don't have the same effect.

Also, the combat algorithms now take the cooperation into account, so there is an even more severe penalty for adding in uncooperating units, or stacking them on the defense, not just increased turn burn.

The reason it said you would take heavy casualties is because that calculation (not AR, the text) takes everything into account. That unit is entrenched so it has something like a 3 or 4x multiplier for it's defense. You're attacking at about 1:1 odds or less, taking that into account, so you probably will take heavy casualties.

Ralph


_____________________________

Ralph Trickey
TOAW III Programmer
Blog: http://operationalwarfare.com
---
My comments are my own, and do not represent the views of any other person or entity. Nothing that I say should be construed in any way as a promise of anything.

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 18
RE: how to use the attack planner - 12/17/2010 12:38:41 AM   
walkra

 

Posts: 27
Joined: 2/16/2008
From: Lanus, Argentina
Status: offline 		Excellent post!!!

(in reply to ralphtrick)
Post #: 19
RE: how to use the attack planner - 12/27/2010 3:18:49 PM   
pvthudson01


Posts: 450
Joined: 10/7/2003
From: Chicago
Status: offline 		Good stuff thanks

_____________________________

Matrix Member since 2003!

(in reply to walkra)
Post #: 20
RE: how to use the attack planner - 12/27/2010 6:04:51 PM   
Panama


Posts: 1362
Joined: 10/30/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ralphtrick

Since toaw doesn't have simple attack and defense strengths, it also takes into account the percent of the defenders who are armored. If you've got infantry against tanks, you're going to see a pretty small value for the AR.



History has shown that tanks are notoriously poor at holding ground against grunts without said tanks having some kind of infantry support. Do defenders that are purely armored receive a benefit against infantry? Seems it should be the other way around.

(in reply to ralphtrick)
Post #: 21
RE: how to use the attack planner - 12/28/2010 3:02:10 AM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 7656
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Panama

quote:

ORIGINAL: ralphtrick

Since toaw doesn't have simple attack and defense strengths, it also takes into account the percent of the defenders who are armored. If you've got infantry against tanks, you're going to see a pretty small value for the AR.



History has shown that tanks are notoriously poor at holding ground against grunts without said tanks having some kind of infantry support. Do defenders that are purely armored receive a benefit against infantry? Seems it should be the other way around.


Ralph should have said "attackers with low AT values against pure armored defenders".

If all the defender's equipment is armored, only the attacker's AT values will be included in the AR. If all the defender's equipment is unarmored, only the attacker's AP values will be included in the AR. If half the defense strength is from armored equipment and half from unarmored, then half the attacker's AP and half the attacker's AT will be included in the AR.

So, if the defenders are all tanks, only the AT values of the attackers will be considered. For some infantry, that will be quite low. But that will be the case in combat resolution as well.

Of course, some infantry have large AT values - available when the designer considers that to be appropriate.

(in reply to Panama)
Post #: 22
RE: how to use the attack planner - 1/7/2011 4:29:44 PM   
marjur


Posts: 101
Joined: 10/29/2008
Status: offline 		What does it mean that a support unit is crossed out? I don't remember seeing it when I still played ACOW.






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by marjur -- 1/7/2011 4:30:22 PM >

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 23
RE: how to use the attack planner - 1/7/2011 4:36:19 PM   
BigDuke66


Posts: 1613
Joined: 2/1/2001
From: Terra
Status: offline 		Well it can but it won't assist because it's neither directly used in the attack nor set on tactical reserve so it could support the attack.

< Message edited by BigDuke66 -- 1/7/2011 4:39:23 PM >

_____________________________

JOIN The Blitz Wargaming Club
JOIN Napoleonic Wargame Club
JOIN American Civil War Game Club

(in reply to marjur)
Post #: 24
RE: how to use the attack planner - 1/7/2011 4:42:55 PM   
marjur


Posts: 101
Joined: 10/29/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

Well it can but it won't assist because it's neither directly used in the attack nor set on tactical reserve so it could support the attack.


Why isn't the defending Arty unit on the right crossed out? It's not on tactical reserve either.

What do you mean "directly" used"? Do you mean close combat like non-arty units do?


< Message edited by marjur -- 1/7/2011 4:43:17 PM >

(in reply to BigDuke66)
Post #: 25
RE: how to use the attack planner - 1/7/2011 4:55:21 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 7656
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: marjur

quote:

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

Well it can but it won't assist because it's neither directly used in the attack nor set on tactical reserve so it could support the attack.


Why isn't the defending Arty unit on the right crossed out? It's not on tactical reserve either.


Supporting deployments are: Tactical Reserve, Local Reserve, Defending, Entrenched, and Fortified. The "X"ed out units are in Mobile deployment - that doesn't support (it's like the "Rest" deployment for bombers).

quote:

What do you mean "directly" used"? Do you mean close combat like non-arty units do?


Directly assigned to the attack - with the gold arrowhead in one of its corners.

(in reply to marjur)
Post #: 26
RE: how to use the attack planner - 1/7/2011 4:57:41 PM   
BigDuke66


Posts: 1613
Joined: 2/1/2001
From: Terra
Status: offline 		The unit on the right is defending and in this mode it supports attack and defense.
And with directly I mean you can click an them to directly assign them to the attack, it will use more "power" as a unit on tactical reserve uses only a part of its actual strength for these things, not sure of a defending unit also uses only a part of its strength.

_____________________________

JOIN The Blitz Wargaming Club
JOIN Napoleonic Wargame Club
JOIN American Civil War Game Club

(in reply to marjur)
Post #: 27
RE: how to use the attack planner - 1/7/2011 6:09:45 PM   
marjur


Posts: 101
Joined: 10/29/2008
Status: offline
quote:

The unit on the right is defending and in this mode it supports attack and defense.


So a defending arty unit will support some non-arty unit which is defending or attacking, right? Does the defending arty unit support with full strength or only half, or some other amount?



< Message edited by marjur -- 1/7/2011 6:35:08 PM >

(in reply to BigDuke66)
Post #: 28
RE: how to use the attack planner - 1/7/2011 7:15:14 PM   
BigDuke66


Posts: 1613
Joined: 2/1/2001
From: Terra
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: marjur

quote:

The unit on the right is defending and in this mode it supports attack and defense.


So a defending arty unit will support some non-arty unit which is defending or attacking, right?


Right, check the manual to see how much they use, I think it's half of their strength.

_____________________________

JOIN The Blitz Wargaming Club
JOIN Napoleonic Wargame Club
JOIN American Civil War Game Club

(in reply to marjur)
Post #: 29
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Norm Koger's The Operational Art Of War III >> how to use the attack planner Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.266