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RE: Wow, what is this?!

 
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RE: Wow, what is this?! - 2/10/2010 7:01:14 PM   
mikemike

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

I have read that it required laying double track where ever it went.  To get the thing to Sevastapol, they had to run double track across Russia and only run it on certain double track lines in Germany.



That's not correct. The gun was transported disassembled on normal rail lines. Three trains for the gun parts, plus several trains for crew, tools, and materials. It needed double track in the firing position, plus two additional tracks at the assembly site for the needed cranes; the assembly took several days. Not a problem considering the intended targets; bunker forts don't move around much. This was a siege gun intended for use against the Maginot Line and the Rock at Gibraltar. There were hardly any other targets that would have needed a gun of that size; however, at Sevastopol, a shell from that gun penetrated 30 metres (100 feet) deep through earth and rock to explode an armored magazine.

Frank, "Anzio Annie" was a K5 280 mm gun with a range of 65 km, a much more plausible type of railway gun. Aberdeen Proving Ground, Maryland, has one that was captured in Normandy in an incomplete state. A 310 mm smooth-bore derivative of the K5 demonstrated a range of 160 km, about 100 miles, firing fin-stabilized projectiles on trial.

BTW, the first "Dora" (three were built in total) was a personal gift from Gustav Krupp von Bohlen und Halbach (the owner of Krupp) to Hitler. A most extravagant piece of brown-nosing, but Gustav had already developed that to a fine art with the Kaiser (not to the Company's disadvantage). One can only speculate to what degree the production of more useful artillery was disrupted when the Dora guns tied up the Krupp workshops for more than half a year.


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RE: Wow, what is this?! - 2/12/2010 12:49:33 PM   
dwg

 

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quote:


I have read the Germans were also working on a rail gun at Calais that would have been able to shell London.


Menser has already covered the V-3, but this may also be confusion with the K12(V) railway gun, which was used by Eisenbahn Batterie 701 in 1940/41 for some desultory shelling of Dover, but which also managed to land a shell at Rainham, only a few miles short of Chatham Dockyard (likely the point of aim, IMO) and the Shorts plant at Rochester Airport with the Stirling production line (the Shorts seaplane works on Rochester Esplanade were on the reverse slope of a hill and would probably have been immune). The potential to inflict some measurable disruption with existing technology was there if they had gotten their act together.

Nor were the Germans alone in producing large calibre siege pieces, and we can validly argue for one of them to appear in game ;) The US planned to deploy the 914mm Little David mortar during Operation Downfall for use against heavy fortifications. The wikipedia article has film of it in use: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_David

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RE: Wow, what is this?! - 2/12/2010 7:57:43 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dwg

Nor were the Germans alone in producing large calibre siege pieces, and we can validly argue for one of them to appear in game ;) The US planned to deploy the 914mm Little David mortar during Operation Downfall for use against heavy fortifications. The wikipedia article has film of it in use: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_David



Slight difference. The Germans DESIGNED these monster siege guns for military use. The "Little David" was designed for testing bombs..., then someone suggested adapting it as a siege gun, and studies were done.

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RE: Wow, what is this?! - 2/13/2010 6:51:02 AM   
bklooste

 

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For what it was designed for i dont think its a waste , the first gun was even free ( so thats 0 tigers) ...It could fire on the  Maginot line making things quite unconfrotable...
 
quote:

Two types of projectiles were fired using a 3000lb. charge of smokeless powder: a 10,584 lb. high explosive (HE) shell and a 16,540 lb. concrete-piercing projectile. Craters from the HE shells measured 30-ft. wide and 30-ft. deep while the concrete piercing projectile proved capable of penetrating 264-ft. of reinforced concrete before exploding! Maximum range was 23 miles with HE shells and 29 miles with concrete piercing projectiles. Muzzle velocity was approximately 2700 f.p.s.
 
 
At Anzio i believe it was placed in a rail way tunnel to hide against air attacks (though it may not have been the 800mm) . I also believed it was quite effective at Sevastapol destorying an under ground ammo Depot durring the Siege. 1 hit and a small fort is gone 300 rounds fired is 2 weeks of non stop fire. 


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RE: Wow, what is this?! - 2/13/2010 6:52:57 AM   
Shark7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishbed

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

That thing might have been worth a lot more if built into a hardened bunker on the Atlantic wall...it could reach out and touch the covering BBs on D-Day if it had been.


With a one-hour reload rate, they'd better be outstanding marksmen or have laser-guided shells


It would pretty much be a one hit wonder...but imagine the damage or a 30"+ AP round.

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RE: Wow, what is this?! - 2/13/2010 8:13:28 AM   
bklooste

 

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Who knows what that is ?

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RE: Wow, what is this?! - 2/13/2010 10:41:57 AM   
wdolson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bklooste

For what it was designed for i dont think its a waste , the first gun was even free ( so thats 0 tigers) ...It could fire on the  Maginot line making things quite unconfrotable...
 
quote:

Two types of projectiles were fired using a 3000lb. charge of smokeless powder: a 10,584 lb. high explosive (HE) shell and a 16,540 lb. concrete-piercing projectile. Craters from the HE shells measured 30-ft. wide and 30-ft. deep while the concrete piercing projectile proved capable of penetrating 264-ft. of reinforced concrete before exploding! Maximum range was 23 miles with HE shells and 29 miles with concrete piercing projectiles. Muzzle velocity was approximately 2700 f.p.s.
 
 
At Anzio i believe it was placed in a rail way tunnel to hide against air attacks (though it may not have been the 800mm) . I also believed it was quite effective at Sevastapol destorying an under ground ammo Depot durring the Siege. 1 hit and a small fort is gone 300 rounds fired is 2 weeks of non stop fire. 



The guns used at Anzio were the Krupp K5 280mm. There were 8 built and they got use in several places around the Reich. Because they actually could be built into one rail carriage, they were more useful than the super guns like the 800mm monster.

Wikipedia article on the K5: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krupp_K5

Bill

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RE: Wow, what is this?! - 2/13/2010 12:19:58 PM   
wwengr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bklooste



Who knows what that is ?

2B1 Oka

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RE: Wow, what is this?! - 2/14/2010 1:04:37 PM   
bklooste

 

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Looks like it will fall over...

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RE: Wow, what is this?! - 2/14/2010 2:12:34 PM   
Chris H

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I knew about the gun, but when I looked it up again, I didn't realize they actually thought about building a SELF PROPELLED VERSION! Only 1500 tons. Why not just put a Destroyer on tracks and wheel that around?

It was drawn up, but cooler heads prevailed.....

No word on if a turreted version was considered





The germans did build and use something like this but not quite as big. The 42/54/60cm Karl-Gerӓt Mӧrser (super howitzer) was self-proprepelled and could travel 40-60 km. A train was used for long distances and it could loaded onto a Culemeyer-Strassenroller (a big 16-wheel trailer) and towed by, I think an SdKfz 8, shorter distances. Typical crew size late in the war 155 men. Would be more in the earlier years.







Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Chris H -- 2/14/2010 2:14:56 PM >

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RE: Wow, what is this?! - 2/14/2010 3:02:10 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bklooste



Who knows what that is ?



Definately designed by a fellow with feelings of inadequacy...

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RE: Wow, what is this?! - 2/15/2010 4:19:57 PM   
mdiehl

 

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I'd be sorely tempted to strap a bag of suet to the end of the barrel some night and see if a couple of pigeons feeding at the end of the barrel could flip the thing forward.

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RE: Wow, what is this?! - 2/15/2010 8:18:02 PM   
Q-Ball


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quote:






Doesn't it look like there are two smaller guns flanking the main barrell? What are those, AA guns? Why not throw those on with that much weight!

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RE: Wow, what is this?! - 2/15/2010 9:28:28 PM   
wdolson

 

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I didn't notice it before.  The secondary armament look like 75mm guns.  I guess if you're going to make a fantasy land battleship, don't stop adding things for weight concerns.

Bill


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RE: Wow, what is this?! - 2/15/2010 11:36:55 PM   
WITPPL


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Not used during the Warsaw uprising (not a Warsaw Getto uprising).

60cm Karl Mortars were used. Very effective. 1 shell = 1 city building. If hit directly.

Warsaw uprising was one of fierced city fightings during a 2ww.


quote:

ORIGINAL: tblersch

According to Hogg, one or the other of Gustav and Dora (yes, there were two) were used at Sevastopol, Stalingrad, and Leningrad, and probably not at Warsaw (more likely the slightly-less-insane 60cm siege howitzers). Gustav (which was the gun at Sevastopol, not Dora) fired maybe 300 shots total before the barrel had to be relined.

Also required an hour to reload, and a quadruple-line rail spur to be built as a firing emplacement. Each, in resources and manpower, cost about as much as two Tiger tank companies. Amazing piece of technology, but a seriously stupid weapon.



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RE: Wow, what is this?! - 2/16/2010 1:05:05 AM   
oldman45


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Anzio Annie shelled the beach head. It was no where near the size of the guns that were used else where. I can't remember the diameter.

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RE: Wow, what is this?! - 2/16/2010 1:59:53 AM   
Jeffrey H.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball






It's an Ogre !

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RE: Wow, what is this?! - 2/16/2010 5:37:09 AM   
06 Maestro


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In view of Germany's limited resources, it was wasteful to build the huge guns, but... Sevastopol was the most heavily fortified naval base on earth and required an extra punch in view of some. It was captured with relatively small Axis casualties due to the concentrated artillery and air bombardment-of which Gustav was no small part.

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RE: Wow, what is this?! - 2/16/2010 7:55:21 AM   
E

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

Soviet forces were known to defeat the tracked version by smashing their GEVs into the treads.


ROFL! (2 points awarded!)

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RE: Wow, what is this?! - 2/16/2010 11:21:02 AM   
GoodGuy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro

In view of Germany's limited resources, it was wasteful to build the huge guns, but... Sevastopol was the most heavily fortified naval base on earth and required an extra punch in view of some. It was captured with relatively small Axis casualties due to the concentrated artillery and air bombardment-of which Gustav was no small part.


Actually, the Axis losses were relatively high, if you consider the entire siege period where German and Rumanian losses are estimated to amount to several 10,000 troops killed, while the Russian losses (troops killed) just among the defenders amounted to a bit more than 10,000 troops, a bad ratio for the Germans, I'd say. 97,000 Russians became POW. The Russians claimed that German and Rumanian casualties amounted to 300,000 troops, a wild exaggeration since the Axis fielded only 7 1/2 German Divisions and 1 1/2 Rumanian division.

German losses just during the 2nd assault on Sevastopol in June 1942:

  • 22nd, 24th, 50th, 132nd and 170th Infantry Division:

    2,584 dead
    13,078 wounded
    1,099 missing in action


In turn, the Russian counteroffensive (Dec 1941 - Jan 1942, to relief the defenders) was a disaster, even though the units from the Caucasian front, which were inserted by the Asow-Flotilla (at Feodossija, Russian marines were the spearheading units) and through airborne operations, managed to buy the defenders of Sevastopol some time, as some German units had to be pulled away from Sevastopol.
The main incident here was the failure of communication on the German side, resulting in the 46th Infantry-Division missing an order and subsequently being pulled back to the Isthmus of Parpatsch by its commander (General von Sponeck) - they completely evacuated from the Krim. This unit was projected to disrupt the landings, but the order did not reach them, so they left all heavy equipment behind, basically because General von Sponeck wanted to avoid being cut off (he got courtmartialed and sentenced to death - where Hitler then changed the sentence to 6 years of imprisonment, but von Sponeck was shot in 1944, by direct order of from Himmler). Current and future recommendations of the 46th Inf Div's personnel were suspended for the remainder of the operation.

For this counteroffensive, the Russians had landed 62,000 troops from the Caucasian front (1 Army, consisting of 6 Divisions), and 20,500 troops from the Asow-Flotilla (probably mostly Russian marines and some Marine commandos), Russian casualties at the end of the operation amounted to 42,000 (32,500 killed). The Russians recaptured the Kertsch peninsula and also reinforced the defenders of Sevastopol, but had failed to destroy the German 46th Inf.-Division and they did not manage to push to Dschankoi (at the Krim channel), which was the main hub and lifeline for the German 11th Army's supplies.
The Germans had to cancel a second attack on Sevastopol scheduled for January 1942, due to the counteroffensive. A bold landing of Russian Marines in Eupatoria's harbor on the 5th of January was pushed back by the Germans within 2 days.
Feodossija was recaptured by the Germans on the 18th of January, after 3 days of fighting. The Germans did not manage to recapture the Kertsch peninsula until May 1942, though.
This Russian counteroffensive was the biggest amphibious operation conducted by the Red Army in WW2.
The game "Men of War" covers these events, in a glorifying and exaggeratory way, though. Oh well, Russian developers.

The Gustav gun helped to bring down the morale of the Russian defenders, but it was rather a psychological weapon than anything else, and the preparatory aerial and "low" calibre arty bombardments did the actual job. Some sources state that only 9 buildings were found to be undamaged in Sevastopol, after the operation.

I've seen an interview with a Russian vet on tv who happened to be in one of the bunkers that got hit by the Gustav shells. He stated that quite some of his comrades went nuts, the whole place was shaking and felt like a giant earthquake, and blowing up that ammunition dump terryfied even the die-hard soldiers. He described that some apocalyptic sentiment was pretty common during the Gustav bombardments, as they used to think that the Fortress was a safe place, before .... His sub-unit surrendered several days later, IIRC, as they ran out of ammunition and supplies. That collection of fortresses and bunker installations was believed to be the toughest fortification in existance, well until Gustav scored some hits.

My 2 cents

< Message edited by GoodGuy -- 2/16/2010 12:11:15 PM >


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RE: Wow, what is this?! - 2/16/2010 12:27:42 PM   
JudgeDredd


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They have a model of that gun at my local model shop. It's about £100 I think

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RE: Wow, what is this?! - 2/16/2010 12:38:30 PM   
06 Maestro


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GoodGuy

quote:

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro

In view of Germany's limited resources, it was wasteful to build the huge guns, but... Sevastopol was the most heavily fortified naval base on earth and required an extra punch in view of some. It was captured with relatively small Axis casualties due to the concentrated artillery and air bombardment-of which Gustav was no small part.


Actually, the Axis losses were relatively high, if you consider the entire siege period where German and Rumanian losses are estimated to amount to several 10,000 troops killed, while the Russian losses (troops killed) just among the defenders amounted to a bit more than 10,000 troops, a bad ratio for the Germans, I'd say. 97,000 Russians became POW. The Russians claimed that German and Rumanian casualties amounted to 300,000 troops, a wild exaggeration since the Axis fielded only 7 1/2 German Divisions and 1 1/2 Rumanian division.

German losses just during the 2nd assault on Sevastopol in June 1942:

  • 22nd, 24th, 50th, 132nd and 170th Infantry Division:

    2,584 dead
    13,078 wounded
    1,099 missing in action


In turn, the Russian counteroffensive (Dec 1941 - Jan 1942, to relief the defenders) was a disaster, even though the units from the Caucasian front, which were inserted by the Asow-Flotilla (at Feodossija, Russian marines were the spearheading units) and through airborne operations, managed to buy the defenders of Sevastopol some time, as some German units had to be pulled away from Sevastopol.
The main incident here was the failure of communication on the German side, resulting in the 46th Infantry-Division missing an order and subsequently being pulled back to the Isthmus of Parpatsch by its commander (General von Sponeck) - they completely evacuated from the Krim. This unit was projected to disrupt the landings, but the order did not reach them, so they left all heavy equipment behind, basically because General von Sponeck wanted to avoid being cut off (he got courtmartialed and sentenced to death - where Hitler then changed the sentence to 6 years of imprisonment, but von Sponeck was shot in 1944, by direct order of from Himmler). Current and future recommendations of the 46th Inf Div's personnel were suspended for the remainder of the operation.

For this counteroffensive, the Russians had landed 62,000 troops from the Caucasian front (1 Army, consisting of 6 Divisions), and 20,500 troops from the Asow-Flotilla (probably mostly Russian marines and some Marine commandos), Russian casualties at the end of the operation amounted to 42,000 (32,500 killed). The Russians recaptured the Kertsch peninsula and also reinforced the defenders of Sevastopol, but had failed to destroy the German 46th Inf.-Division and they did not manage to push to Dschankoi (at the Krim channel), which was the main hub and lifeline for the German 11th Army's supplies.
The Germans had to cancel a second attack on Sevastopol scheduled for January 1942, due to the counteroffensive. A bold landing of Russian Marines in Eupatoria's harbor on the 5th of January was pushed back by the Germans within 2 days.
Feodossija was recaptured by the Germans on the 18th of January, after 3 days of fighting. The Germans did not manage to recapture the Kertsch peninsula until May 1942, though.
This Russian counteroffensive was the biggest amphibious operation conducted by the Red Army in WW2.
The game "Men of War" covers these events, in a glorifying and exaggeratory way, though. Oh well, Russian developers.

The Gustav gun helped to bring down the morale of the Russian defenders, but it was rather a psychological weapon than anything else, and the preparatory aerial and "low" calibre arty bombardments did the actual job. Some sources state that only 9 buildings were found to be undamaged in Sevastopol, after the operation.

I've seen an interview with a Russian vet on tv who happened to be in one of the bunkers that got hit by the Gustav shells. He stated that quite some of his comrades went nuts, the whole place was shaking and felt like a giant earthquake, and blowing up that ammunition dump terryfied even the die-hard soldiers. He described that some apocalyptic sentiment was pretty common during the Gustav bombardments, as they used to think that the Fortress was a safe place, before .... His sub-unit surrendered several days later, IIRC, as they ran out of ammunition and supplies. That collection of fortresses and bunker installations was believed to be the toughest fortification in existance, well until Gustav scored some hits.

My 2 cents


I was referring to the actual assault on Sevastopol, not the entire Crimean campaign. It was a long road to being able to attack Sevastopol itself.

Sevastopol is in s somewhat natural fortress-and there were plenty of man made fortifications. Its capture was a great victory for Germany-and an embarrassment for the USSR as another hundred thousand of their soldiers were marched out into captivity.

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