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RE: Detection Even if Under the Radar

 
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RE: Detection Even if Under the Radar - 1/19/2010 4:33:37 AM   
3rd ACR Tanker


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I've read the discussion, but am wondering if possibly a detection code is added in at some point to simulate merchant marine, coastal command or even a destroyer patrol spotted it. As it looks now, and correct me if I am wrong, but it looks like from what I remember that the area you overflew was a major shipping approach to the western ports up through there. So, if that is "historical" then u-boats would be a threat to the area, so therefore, coastal command patrol might have seen them. We've got coastal command airbases, and even though coastal command isn't a player controlled entity, could that possibly be a reason he was spotted??? Just my thoughts on the subject....



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RE: Detection Even if Under the Radar - 1/19/2010 8:40:43 AM   
otisabuser2


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Hi 3rd ACR Tanker,

the raid is definitely spotted by Penzance. When you set up the raid in player vs player, the RAF gets the message I showed in my original pic. Penzance spots you each time, every time.

I must admit, I think the suggestion that random shipping may spot this raid carries some merit. But we need to consider three points.

Firstly, was the Bristol Channel any busier than other places for shipping traffic ? There's similarly heavy coastal traffic on the British east coast as well. As well as the merchants plying their way up and down the coast, there's the RN destroyers in and out of Harwich, Sherness, Humber etc, as well as the other small boat anti-invasion patrols, and numerous minesweepers, and fishing boats.

Secondly, consider where the bulk of the Bristol Channel shipping should be. ie on the northern side, serving the numerous industrial ports in south Wales. There's nothing on the southern side, save "holiday village" harbours. The targets on the south Wales side will spot the raids over where the shipping was.

Thirdly, should we open the whole can of worms of having boat observations in BTR off the coast of Holland and Denmark ? In the Med ?

Are these ships linked to Fighter Command, like the Observer Corps were ? No.

Could this occassional chance of boats pass on a continual line of plots, accurate estimations of aircraft directions, numbers and altitude, like the carefully laid out array of Observer Corps posts ? No.

Still looking at map of UK and thinking the only reason I can't fly to the left of Cornwall is because someone snipped the map there.

regards Otis

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RE: Detection Even if Under the Radar - 1/19/2010 12:55:12 PM   
Hard Sarge


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OB explain to me how you can do it on the East

it works the same on both sides, you come in under the radar, and then are spotted as you get close to the coast, the same from Northern France, the same from Norway, the same from Southern France

we added in OC places that you thought there were gaps in the OC coverage ?



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RE: Detection Even if Under the Radar - 1/19/2010 2:14:31 PM   
Hard Sarge


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

OB explain to me how you can do it on the East

it works the same on both sides, you come in under the radar, and then are spotted as you get close to the coast, the same from Northern France, the same from Norway, the same from Southern France

we added in OC places that you thought there were gaps in the OC coverage ?

if there are gaps in the north we can add in OC areas, but it is still not a major issue, as the bombers from Norway are going to be using light loads to begin with


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RE: Detection Even if Under the Radar - 1/19/2010 2:24:14 PM   
otisabuser2


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I already drew you a map.

The "right flank" raid flew low to Hoffmans to avoid radar detection. It also plotted around Dover in a dog-leg to remove spotting by land targets until the last moments.

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RE: Detection Even if Under the Radar - 1/19/2010 4:10:37 PM   
Hard Sarge


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that is what I keep asking you and you don't follow, once it gets close to the coast, it is spotting, the same with the raid from Nick, once it gets close to the coast, it is spotted

all the sneak is doing, is getting you close to the coast, once there, you get seen, in the far north, in the middle, in the west or in the east

(there may be some OC gaps far up north, I have not looked for those (it is HARD to hit a lot of the targets in the North from Norway)



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RE: Detection Even if Under the Radar - 1/19/2010 4:25:23 PM   
otisabuser2


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Think.

What are the advantages of not being seen until the last possible moment ?

Clue.

I have already told you.

Can you seriously not see what Nick thought he ought to be able to do ? ? ? ?

Any thoughts on the other question of spotting ranges ?

< Message edited by otisabuser2 -- 1/19/2010 4:26:15 PM >

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RE: Detection Even if Under the Radar - 1/19/2010 5:47:29 PM   
Hard Sarge


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I know all about it

yes I know what he was trying to do, and he wasn't able to do it, with a sneak, and as I have said, he could of done it with tactics instead

he wasn't able to sneak past, as he was spotted, if he had tried to sneak into the coast, he could of got in and got out

with what you want to say you can do in the east, yes, you can get to the coast, unseen, and then slip in and hit something close to the coast and try to get out, but you can't do that and fly to Liverpool unseen

you are spotted by the OC as you reach the coast in each of the cases

I have no control over the OC range, and I have too many other things I would like Harley looking at, then what the OC range is, so I will not be asking him to any time soon, maybe down the road, we can find out what it is, and if it seems to be too far or not

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RE: Detection Even if Under the Radar - 1/19/2010 8:45:43 PM   
Nikademus


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looks like a means to prevent an map-exploit to me.

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RE: Detection Even if Under the Radar - 1/20/2010 4:17:15 PM   
Hard Sarge


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OB

we "may" need some more coastal towns on the East side

not that I think they are really needed, but there are gaps in the OC coastal coverage






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RE: Detection Even if Under the Radar - 1/20/2010 4:30:41 PM   
otisabuser2


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Obvious gap is in Scotland, below Wick ?

Had not tried to see if you can slip through anywhere else.

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RE: Detection Even if Under the Radar - 1/20/2010 4:41:09 PM   
Hard Sarge


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hehe, naw, a lot closer to France

but, as you can see, not really worth it

now, maybe tied into a day long battle with some 2000 other bombers and fighters in the air ???

if you want, I can give you a list of some of the gaps, and you can find me some coastal towns to add in ?

(oddly, radar sites have very poor OC ranges, they must all be busy looking at the scopes :)



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RE: Detection Even if Under the Radar - 1/20/2010 4:41:22 PM   
otisabuser2


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DooH ! ! ! ! !

Finding several now.

Yes, will gladly look into it.

< Message edited by otisabuser2 -- 1/20/2010 4:44:37 PM >

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RE: Detection Even if Under the Radar - 1/20/2010 5:43:27 PM   
Hard Sarge


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yea once you pick up on the range of the OC, you can spot where other gaps may be

they are very dangerous to use, but they are there



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RE: Detection Even if Under the Radar - 1/20/2010 8:13:51 PM   
Nicholas Bell

 

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I think the point that Otis is making is that because raids were historically routed around as shown below, that players should be allowed to simulate this route on the existing smaller map by NOT having observation points, visible or invisible to the player which would prevent this. This would be an abstraction to allow for historical routes given the smaller map, admittedly ignoring the Scilly Islands.




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RE: Detection Even if Under the Radar - 1/20/2010 8:37:18 PM   
Nikademus


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Whether or not some raids were routed in this way is not the point. If in-game it proved an exploitable tactic with a consistant reasonable means of success by end-arounding the defenses it would ruin the flavor of the game due to players consistantly utilizing such a tactic vs. the more straightforward raids used by the LW between France. So far HS's tests are mixed on whether or not this might prove to be the case. Map edge generated situations must always be looked at with care.


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RE: Detection Even if Under the Radar - 1/21/2010 9:40:37 AM   
otisabuser2


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Hi Nikademus,

following the second part your rule even attacks from Norway seem out of bounds. The only raids permitted are the head on ones from France that proved unsucessful ?

As for the first part, the raids effects on South Wales are moderated by the flak and balloons on those targets. The defending player has the options of increasing these. There is also the matter of the RAF planes base at Pembrey and St Eval, on the return leg.

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RE: Detection Even if Under the Radar - 1/21/2010 9:51:54 AM   
otisabuser2


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Hi HS,

thought again about those spotting gaps afterwards.

We always knew they were there. I had disregarded them when we noticed the extended range the towns now spot these raids. Thought we did not try to plug them before because plotting long distance over land was an obvious cheat that was down to player ethics.

We had to put the coastal towns on the south coast because AI had no conscience. The low level airfield attacks it uses were historical. Hence the additional places. This allows the historical raids and genuine spotting process.

As I see it we only need to add more places where the AI tries it and can sneak through undetected. Say, north of Southend. Have not seen it anywhere else ?

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RE: Detection Even if Under the Radar - 1/21/2010 2:22:57 PM   
Hard Sarge


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Nick

give me more details on these historical raids, I have never seen or read about a single one ?

and to be honest, that is a pretty long, low level flight

also, LF 3 after Aug 21st pretty much went over to Night bombing, as most of the fighters were shifted to LF 2

most of the raids I have details on, were pretty much right in and right out (even if deep) not much fancy flying hundreds of miles out of the way, or at wave top height

plus Nav is a BIG Issue with these kinds of raids

I could see some Condors making a swing like that, hunting for some shipping ?

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RE: Detection Even if Under the Radar - 1/21/2010 2:51:27 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: otisabuser2

Hi Nikademus,

following the second part your rule even attacks from Norway seem out of bounds. The only raids permitted are the head on ones from France that proved unsucessful ?

As for the first part, the raids effects on South Wales are moderated by the flak and balloons on those targets. The defending player has the options of increasing these. There is also the matter of the RAF planes base at Pembrey and St Eval, on the return leg.



Hello,

I don't honestly recall stating any specific "rule". I voiced an opinion based on developer experience that sometimes programmers do have to institute controls and limits to prevent exploits and gamey tactics. "Map edge" exploits are as old as computer wargames.

On the subject of Historical...see HS's post. . Luft 5's attempt to hit Northern UK on the other hand had a purpose and target and was based on the assumption that the Zerstorers could provide adequate escort. They were wrong. Given 5's positioning, there wasn't really another option. They tried it. It failed, it stopped. Technically it also doesn't constitute a map edge issue since it's not near a map edge.



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RE: Detection Even if Under the Radar - 1/21/2010 3:28:35 PM   
Nicholas Bell

 

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Low level flights the entire route - none. I didn't mean to imply that. In game terms the flight is at such and such altitude the whole length, but the reality was that raids would start higher and drop down to low altitude (and then often climb to bomb). The raids I was referring to were the night raids on the West Coast. I don't know what height they flew the route but often the Blitz attacks were conducted at below 5000' over the target.

I just want to make it clear I am not asking for alterations so that I can conduct unrealistic, gamey, sneak attacks. The illustration I posted was to help others understand what Otis was talking about. While it would be nice to have a huge map to allow for exploring possibilities, I understand there are limits "we" have to live with.

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RE: Detection Even if Under the Radar - 1/21/2010 3:36:24 PM   
otisabuser2


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Hi Nikademus,

didn't say Norway was near the map edge. Your definition actually referred to "end-arounding the defenses ", which an attack from Norway clearly is.

Perhaps this example won't get us anywhere.

Try this one. Suppose there was an unlikely scenario where the right edge of the map was cropped like this below. All raids would now have to be routed over Kent to get to Hoffmans Bearing plant now.

I could argue that the map should be extended right, to enable me to fly around Dover/Margate to avoid flak there. I should be able to plot further to east to keep out of range of the RAF. Finally, this now stops a low-level approach to the coast near Walton radar, because I'll be spotted over Kent whatever.

I might be stuffed trying to find an example of where such a raid really happened. But it seems perfectly reasonable that I should be able to do it.

It's much the same in the western map edge now.






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< Message edited by otisabuser2 -- 1/21/2010 3:37:25 PM >

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RE: Detection Even if Under the Radar - 1/21/2010 3:48:02 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: otisabuser2

Hi Nikademus,

didn't say Norway was near the map edge. Your definition actually referred to "end-arounding the defenses ", which an attack from Norway clearly is.



My definition tied the issue of utilizing map edges to get around defenses by the finding of an exploitable tactic. The two are thus linked in my "definition" Further, Norway is not an example of doing an end-around. Norway was an example of a means to attack Northern England, which had it's own defense. (13 Group and a chain of ground defenses) Thus its not a valid comparison here.


quote:


I might be stuffed trying to find an example of where such a raid really happened. But it seems perfectly reasonable that I should be able to do it.

It's much the same in the western map edge now.


I don't agree. Part of the problem here is that the word "historical" got thrown in which we seem to have cleared up now as there was no historical attempt and for good reason....it wasn't practical due to the difficulties involved. If the game were to reward this maneuver enough to encourage players to utilize it in lieu of conventional tactics, then you have an exploit.


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RE: Detection Even if Under the Radar - 1/22/2010 9:43:51 AM   
otisabuser2


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I think the wording " utilizing map edges to get around defenses " and "exploit" are clouding the real issue here.

If we look back to Nick's original raid, it is clear that he is not flying close to the map edge to gain any advantage of using that border. He is actually aiming to fly around the tip of Cornwall.

Flying around genuine edges of defences is tactically sound and perfectly legitimate, where fuel and space permits. ( See Dover example ).

Had the map border been 100 miles to the west, Nick's raid would have been 50 miles clear of the map edge.

Had the map border been 200 miles to the west, his raid would have been 150 miles clear of the map edge.

This is no map-edge exploit.

Also note South Wales was defended, with flak, balloons, airfields and planes. There is no cheat intended.

Attacking South Wales from Brest is comparable to attacking Scotland from Norway. It's just the other flank of the main effort.

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