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RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and dive bomber accuracy?

 
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RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and di... - 1/15/2010 9:45:51 AM   
che200


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Thanks

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RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and di... - 1/15/2010 3:46:07 PM   
Admiral Scott


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What about torpedo bombers using bombs.
What altitudes will an Avenger glide bomb instead of level bomb?

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RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and di... - 1/15/2010 4:07:29 PM   
EUBanana


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A curious subject - I usually have my level bombers go in between 6000' and 12000' depending on how heavy the AA is. 6000' would be my default.

I don't think I've ever used level bombers higher than 12k feet though. I know a few aircraft can fly /very/ high, like 40k, and fly right over the fighters, a capability which I have used very occasionally when up against the uberzeroes (eat my dust, suckas!), but thats a bit of a special case and I don't expect anything other than the odd stray hit, kinda like with night bombing.

Looks like other people seem to set their bombers to fly much higher than I do.

< Message edited by EUBanana -- 1/15/2010 4:08:12 PM >


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RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and di... - 1/15/2010 4:14:02 PM   
1EyedJacks


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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

Mission: Bombing
A/c type: DB
(1) Group altitude: 10-15K
A/c are treated as if performing a diving attack
(2) Group altitude: 16-19K
A/c are treated as if performing a glide attack
(3) Group altitude: <10
A/c are treated as if performing a low level attack
(4) Group altitude: 20+
A/c are treated as if performing a normal horizontal attack
The attacks are based on altitude flown.
If I had to do it again, I would probably let the player pick an 'attack tactic' which would allow planes to approach target at the group alt but determine the attack alt and bombing type based on the 'attack tactic'.

Diving attacks have a better chance than gliding attacks to make a hit; pilots with good NAVAL_BOMB skills have a better chance. Exit altitude is 1000-4000'.
Glide attacks have a better chance than level bombing but not as good as diving attacks to make a hit, but; again better skilled pilots have a better chance. Exit altitude is 2000-5000'.



Hi michaelm - thanks very much for this.

I've noticed in my AE game that enemy DD seem to be elusive little buggers. Along with training the NAVAL_BOMB skills, which would be the best tactic to improve my attacks on DD - low level attacks at an altitide of <10k?





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RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and di... - 1/15/2010 5:37:48 PM   
freeboy

 

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dd are har dto hit, very hard with torps, has to do with target size and speed... Speed mostly
elusive.. thats works both ways fyi

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RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and di... - 1/15/2010 5:39:07 PM   
Sardaukar


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Skip bombing is way to go to get DDs and smaller surface combatants. Of course you get mauled if your planes happen to attack BBs at 100 ft...

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RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and di... - 1/15/2010 6:14:37 PM   
1EyedJacks


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Skip bombing is way to go to get DDs and smaller surface combatants. Of course you get mauled if your planes happen to attack BBs at 100 ft...


Does skip-bombing only work @ 100ft like in WITP or is it considered part of the low level attack when flying below 10k?



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RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and di... - 1/15/2010 6:26:52 PM   
Sardaukar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 1EyedJacks


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Skip bombing is way to go to get DDs and smaller surface combatants. Of course you get mauled if your planes happen to attack BBs at 100 ft...


Does skip-bombing only work @ 100ft like in WITP or is it considered part of the low level attack when flying below 10k?




It seems to be 100ft, but we'd need answer from devs to be sure.

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RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and di... - 1/15/2010 7:18:23 PM   
michaelm


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There was a typo in that list -
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2347631&mpage=1&key=#

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RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and di... - 1/15/2010 8:28:02 PM   
USS America


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Michael, does any altitude affect the number of planes in each Dive Bombing attack packet?  4 vs 9, as in WitP?

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RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and di... - 1/15/2010 10:09:36 PM   
rattovolante


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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

Mission: Bombing
A/c type: DB
(1) Group altitude: 10-15K
A/c are treated as if performing a diving attack
(2) Group altitude: 16-19K
A/c are treated as if performing a glide attack
(3) Group altitude: <1K
A/c are treated as if performing a low level attack
(4) Group altitude: 20+ or 1-9K
A/c are treated as if performing a normal horizontal attack


Thanks! :) one more questions, sorry if I'm abusing your patience:
- what skills does the pilot use in patch 2? LowN/LowG for alt. < 6K and NavB/GrdB for alt. >= 6K?

I'm trying to reformat this in a table for the wiki btw...

< Message edited by rattovolante -- 1/15/2010 10:10:13 PM >

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RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and di... - 1/15/2010 11:51:34 PM   
Admiral Scott


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What about torpedo bombers using bombs?

What altitudes will an Avenger glide bomb instead of level bomb?

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RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and di... - 1/16/2010 5:23:56 PM   
Admiral Scott


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What about torpedo bombers using bombs?

What altitudes will an Avenger glide bomb instead of level bomb?

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RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and di... - 1/16/2010 11:33:17 PM   
Admiral Scott


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What about torpedo bombers using bombs?

What altitudes will an Avenger glide bomb instead of level bomb

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RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and di... - 1/17/2010 5:24:39 PM   
Admiral Scott


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bump

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RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and di... - 1/18/2010 3:46:39 AM   
Admiral Scott


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RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and di... - 1/18/2010 7:00:05 AM   
Barb


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I would think that torpedo bombers with bombload acts as level bombers, therefore no glide bombing for them whatever altitude. Unless specifically stated by devs.

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RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and di... - 1/18/2010 8:46:07 AM   
Puhis

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb

I would think that torpedo bombers with bombload acts as level bombers, therefore no glide bombing for them whatever altitude. Unless specifically stated by devs.


Don't know about that. I just noticed that when my kates were set to ground attack at 10000 feet, they dropped bombs from 2000-5000 ft?

I asked the same thing, so far no answers.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2351091

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RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and di... - 1/18/2010 4:46:56 PM   
Admiral Scott


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb

I would think that torpedo bombers with bombload acts as level bombers, therefore no glide bombing for them whatever altitude. Unless specifically stated by devs.



Avenger crews became proficient at glide and skip bombing, with an Avenger diving in at a moderate angle and then dropping a string of four 225 kilogram (500 pound) bombs that skipped into the hull of the target, detonating with a delayed-action fuze. In the end the Avenger, built primarily as a torpedo bomber, would drop far more bombs than torpedoes.

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RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and di... - 1/18/2010 7:26:11 PM   
spence

 

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quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb

I would think that torpedo bombers with bombload acts as level bombers, therefore no glide bombing for them whatever altitude. Unless specifically stated by devs.




Avenger crews became proficient at glide and skip bombing, with an Avenger diving in at a moderate angle and then dropping a string of four 225 kilogram (500 pound) bombs that skipped into the hull of the target, detonating with a delayed-action fuze. In the end the Avenger, built primarily as a torpedo bomber, would drop far more bombs than torpedoes.



Level bombing was the practice in the IJN with the Kate and successors. According to USN doctrine a torpedo bomber attacking a ship with bomb(s) would make a glide bombing attack at masthead level (a few hundred feet). In fact the USN just plain did not do high level "precision" bombing at all.






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RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and di... - 1/19/2010 1:59:34 PM   
xj900uk

 

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?  I would say in the early part of the war, certainly '42 the US tried an awful lot of high-level precision bombing of ships from B17's from anything up to 20k feet.  Oddly enough though if the Forts were on Naval Search they would often come down under 10k feet to more accurately spot and ID shipping.
And it took an awfully long time for the USAAF to get out of the mentality that high-level accurate/'precision' bombing of shipping could work...

During the Guadacanal campaign,  Beatties from Rabaul would often carry out high-level precision bombing of the airfield and supply dumps, from heights in excess of 20k feet.  More often than not they missed with their limited load of 2 x 250kg bombs and 2 x 60kg daisy cutters,  and that's trying to hit a stationary target that's not zig-zagging about beneath you!

NOt saying that precision bombing doesn't work,  as the RAF (mainly 617 squadron) and later on the USAAF with its Norden bombsite in Europe had a few successes,  but it was very, very difficult...

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RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and di... - 1/19/2010 6:29:04 PM   
spence

 

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The B-17 was not a Navy bomber. The U.S. Navy's first non-float patrol bombers were PV-1s and PB4Y-1s (B-24s). The USAAFs fascination with high level attack was never incorporated into Navy attack doctrines. USAAF bombers attacked ships from 20k ft at Midway and took some really pretty photos of some of the Kido Butai's carriers (their only accomplishment) however even the USAAF recognized that they weren't scoring any hits so by the time of Guadalcanal the B-17s were attacking ships from under 10k ft. Mutsuki was not their only score BTW.

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RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and di... - 1/13/2011 8:50:13 AM   
BigDuke66


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Just found this thread and the list is very useful for the use of dive bombers but I'm also interested what Fighter Bombers, Level Bombers & Torpedo Bombers would do at a specific altitude.
OK I guess none of them would dive bomb and a low level attack has to be below 1K no matter what type but what about glide bombing?
If it is too dangerous for a low level attack and a normal horizontal attack wouldn't have much chance for a hit glide bombing could maybe to the job so it would be interesting to know what altitudes I have to use to get them to do glide bombing, does anyone know that?


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RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and di... - 1/20/2011 8:37:02 AM   
obvert


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In current game have trained up Dutch bombers, now B-25s and Havocs, to about 65-70. They hit AK and escorts a bit from 5000. They miss CA and CL every time. What heights might work best? Do I have to go as low as 1000, or to 3000, or would AA affect the approach so much that it's better to go higher, to 8000?

And why do the Martins suck so badly when they drop 3 x 300s, yet even with skilled pilots have about a 5% hit rate now?

Had Banshees trained to 70 as well and got a good CA hit, but even they had trouble.

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RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and di... - 1/20/2011 8:45:05 AM   
obvert


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PS - Is it worth keeping the Banshees around, or even one squad of them, if I'm holding Sumatra and continuing to reinforce it. Two squads almost single-handedly took out the first division that arrived in its eleven ships, plus the cruiser hit. How much PP penalty is it? Is it 1 point per plane per turn?

It's too late for this AI game, as I let them go, ( unless I want to back up for fun), but for the future, and a human opponent, could it make sense?

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RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and di... - 1/20/2011 9:03:43 AM   
Ranger5355

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

PS - Is it worth keeping the Banshees around, or even one squad of them, if I'm holding Sumatra and continuing to reinforce it. Two squads almost single-handedly took out the first division that arrived in its eleven ships, plus the cruiser hit. How much PP penalty is it? Is it 1 point per plane per turn?

It's too late for this AI game, as I let them go, ( unless I want to back up for fun), but for the future, and a human opponent, could it make sense?

I kept mine. I still have a two squadrons in Dec '44. The pilots are masters now and whoa to any Japanese convoy the gets in thier range!
I'm not sure about points, I'm playing the AI and I have an abudance of points so I don't pay a lot of attention.

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RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and di... - 1/20/2011 9:35:03 AM   
Fallschirmjager


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What altitude should you use with your dive bombers and torpedo bombers use when they are providing ground support by attacking port, airfields and ground units and city attacks.
I never get an acceptable number of hits from these attacks.

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RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and di... - 1/20/2011 11:52:20 AM   
undercovergeek

 

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everything i launch from land or decks as the IJN/IJA i launch at 1000ft - its carnage! The KB has crippled massed AKs/APs and destroyed CV fleets.

The only problem i have is i set the escorts at 5k to provide cover but most enemy CAPs are set at higher and the Zeroes, not the bombers do get a bit of a mauling

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RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and di... - 1/20/2011 12:53:21 PM   
USS America


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From 1000 ft, your dive bombers should not be able to dive bomb.  That should significantly decrease their accuracy.

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RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and di... - 1/20/2011 2:28:03 PM   
Chris H

 

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Just to complicate matters.

A large number of Kingfisher units are set to convert to the Dauntless.   The default height for the FP is 6K for search ops while the DB is 10K.   From reports I've seen 10K is too high for decent search ops and way to high for ASW so how do you use the DB in these rolls?

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