Things are getting kind of tense in the forums these days, so I hesitate to raise this point. But it's one I've been chewing on for weeks and it's really come to a head today.
It appears to me that submarines are able to operate too effectively in and adjacent to major Allied base hexes. In my PBEM against Miller, he has had stunning success in posting his subs in or right outside bases like San Francisco, Pearl Harbor, Noumea, and Sydney. I have aircraft on ASW and dedicated ASW TFs operating out of these bases, but the enemy subs are tearing apart my ASW while taking only a few losses themselves.
From August 1 to October 16, 1942, Japanese subs have sunk the following ships in dedicated ASW TFs in or adjacent to major ports: DDs - 6; AM -5; KV -1 ; YP - 1; SC - 1.
Note, these are not escorts accompaning juicy and vulnerable merchant ships on the high seas far from land. These are ships assigned to ASW duty in or next to major bases that have ASW air patrols.
How ridiculous has it been? In one case, a Japanese submarine surfaced during daylight hours and sank an AKL docked and unloading at Luganville. The Allied ASW TF in the hex didn't do anything.
In total, 71 American destroyers went under in all theaters during World War II. I've lost six to just Japanese subs in six weeks.[:@]
Nuclear Subs
Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition
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Canoerebel
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Nuclear Subs
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
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Canoerebel
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RE: Nuclear Subs
P.S. Allied subs have torpedoed three Japanese destroyers at Kendari in the past few weeks, so this cuts both ways. It's an equal opportunity problem.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
RE: Nuclear Subs
IJN submarine doctrine is no longer an issue, so Jap subs are more aggressive than they were in stock.
We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.
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Canoerebel
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RE: Nuclear Subs
I'm researching this issue and this is what I've found thus far.
Forty-seven American destroyers were sunk by the Japanese during World War II.
Thus far I've found causes for fifteen of these sinkings. Of these fifteen, one (ONE) was sunk by a sub. Of the other fourteen, one was boarded and captured at Soerabaja, one was sunk by naval gunfire, several by kamikaze, and the rest by aerial attack.
Forty-seven American destroyers were sunk by the Japanese during World War II.
Thus far I've found causes for fifteen of these sinkings. Of these fifteen, one (ONE) was sunk by a sub. Of the other fourteen, one was boarded and captured at Soerabaja, one was sunk by naval gunfire, several by kamikaze, and the rest by aerial attack.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
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Canoerebel
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RE: Nuclear Subs
ORIGINAL: Terminus
IJN submarine doctrine is no longer an issue, so Jap subs are more aggressive than they were in stock.
Okay, sub doctrine is off...but that shouldn't allow them to operate with near-impunity in and next to major bases.
Sub doctrine makes my point even stronger. Even though in the real war Japanese subs only took shots at combat ships, they rarely hit Allied destroyers. And I'll guarantee that very few of those hits were against destroyers specifically on ASW patrol (most were probably like the destroyer trying to rescue survivors at Midway or destroyers serving as escorts to convoys.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
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noguaranteeofsanity
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RE: Nuclear Subs
ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
P.S. Allied subs have torpedoed three Japanese destroyers at Kendari in the past few weeks, so this cuts both ways. It's an equal opportunity problem.
Totally agree it works both ways and doesnt seem biased, for example, send all those subs out from Manila and have them patrol between Vigan and Formosa... i have been getting at least 2 or 3 separate attacks on IJN transports almost every turn. Although as the allies, you will find that the majority of torpedoes fail (like 75 percent or more), you may get lucky and they will even surface and start shelling the enemy, when there is no escort.
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Canoerebel
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RE: Nuclear Subs
Here's a list of American destroyers sunk in the Pacifc. Note that (as of this posting) only one of those listed was sunk by a submarine. I'm going to edit this as I find out the cause of sinking for each:
- USS Edsall Sunk by Japanese battleships and heavy cruisers in early 1942 in Indonesian waters
- USS Stewart A Clemson-class destroyer, heavily damaged and captured at Soerabaya. Commissioned in the Imperial Japanese Navy as Patrol boat no 102.
- USS Pope
- USS Peary: American destroyer sunk on 19 February 1942 by aircraft in Darwin Harbour.
- USS Pillsbury
- USS Porter Sunk by air attack during the Battle of Santa Cruz 1942.
- USS Mahan: Sank after three kamikaze hits off Leyte on 7 December 1944.
- USS Reid: Sank after two kamikaze hits off Leyte on 11 December 1944.
- USS Cassin: Sunk in dry dock alongside USS Downes on 7 December 1941 at Pearl Harbor. Later salvaged and rebuilt.
- USS Downes: Sunk in dry dock alongside USS Cassin on 7 December 1941 at Pearl Harbor. Later salvaged and rebuilt.
- USS Cushing: Sunk by naval gunfire at Savo Island.
- USS Preston: Sunk by naval gunfire at Savo Island.
- USS Blue
- USS Henley
- USS Jarvis Sunk in aerial attacks during the Guadalcanal campaign in 1942.
- USS Benham
- USS Sims: Sunk on 7 May 1942 by carrier aircraft during Battle of Coral Sea.
- USS Hammann: Sunk on 6 June 1942 by Japanese submarine I-168 during the Battle of Midway.
- USS O'Brien Broke up under tow to Pearl harbor for repairs a month after being torpedoed by Japanese submarine I-19.
- USS Walke: Sunk by naval gunfire at Savo Island.
- USS Gwin
- USS Meredith
- USS Monssen
- USS Chevalier
- USS Laffey
- USS Strong
- USS De Haven
- USS Pringle
- USS Aaron Ward
- USS Duncan: American destroyer sunk on 12 October 1942 by Japanese naval gunfire at the Battle of Cape Esperance.
- USS Brownson
- USS Luce
- USS Abner Read
- USS Bush
- USS Hoel
- USS Johnston
- USS Morrison: Sank after four hits by kamikaze aircraft on 4 May 1945 while on picket duty off Okinawa.
- USS William D. Porter
- USS Halligan
- USS Twiggs
- USS Barton
- USS Cooper
- USS Mannert L. Abele
- USS Drexler: Sank after two hits by kamikaze aircraft on 28 May 1945
- USS Callaghan
- USS Colhoun
- USS Little
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
RE: Nuclear Subs
And yet I have sunk 4 subs outside of my major ports in the last few weeks against the Ai (not saying your experience is wrong just cannnot match it)
I tend to use small mixed TF's on ASW supported by ASW aircraft at low altitude c 1 - 2,000 feet on short wide search radius i.e. no more than 3 or 4 hex range.
My most successfull HK Group was commanded by Arleigh Burke consisted of HMAS Nizam, USS Walke and a pair of other ships that rotate
I tend to use small mixed TF's on ASW supported by ASW aircraft at low altitude c 1 - 2,000 feet on short wide search radius i.e. no more than 3 or 4 hex range.
My most successfull HK Group was commanded by Arleigh Burke consisted of HMAS Nizam, USS Walke and a pair of other ships that rotate
RE: Nuclear Subs
Well, I can't say the experience in my two games is the same. I find the Japanese subs to be very deadly but it has not proven to be the disaster that you have seen. Perhaps Miller is just very good at this. My opponents are skilled-and I am experienced in sub warfare. So far in both games (mid March and Mid Feburary) I have seen.
1. Japanese subs indeed more deadly than historical. Lone ships are dead meat and extreem caution is needed with my capital ships. So far none have been hit. Couple of light cruisers hit and sunk and a couple more damaged. One sub nailed the damaged and fleeing POW on the second day. She took three hits and sunk.
2 Long lance is a one shot killer against most all light ships. I have not had a DD, AK, TK, or Auxiliary survive after taking a torpedo. (Narwhale took a hit and survived-go figure). Yet my losses have not been excessive. I am finding that even a single escort will make a difference.
3. Yes, too many DDs and KVs are getting hit, but it has not been enough for me to be concerned. Just a little more cautious. I have shot and missed or failed to explode at lots of IJN DDs but not a single hit. Not too worried yet about this. I am at least getting the attacks.
4. Both Allied ASW and IJN ASW is just bad. No surprise here. We each have lost two or three subs in both games. Don't really know about my DC but Japanese DC are not that good. I have yet to be hit by an airplane and I don't think mine have hit any Japanese. Maybe one or two. I have not gotten my 4/42 ugrades yet. British ships with good ASW assets are very deadly, but American DDs just do not have enough DCs. No surprise here either.
5 Airplanes are important. My ASW attacks have come against subs that have been snooped by aircraft first. I am also able to spot many subs around the West Coast and Pearl and move my ships around them.
So all in all, I am pretty pleased with my games. Seems like subs are working fairly well. I know Miller is very agressive with his subs. From your AAR, I know that you have sunk a lot of them. My opponents seem more conservative and the results seem fine. We will have to watch subs but so far I am not feeling the pain that you are.
1. Japanese subs indeed more deadly than historical. Lone ships are dead meat and extreem caution is needed with my capital ships. So far none have been hit. Couple of light cruisers hit and sunk and a couple more damaged. One sub nailed the damaged and fleeing POW on the second day. She took three hits and sunk.
2 Long lance is a one shot killer against most all light ships. I have not had a DD, AK, TK, or Auxiliary survive after taking a torpedo. (Narwhale took a hit and survived-go figure). Yet my losses have not been excessive. I am finding that even a single escort will make a difference.
3. Yes, too many DDs and KVs are getting hit, but it has not been enough for me to be concerned. Just a little more cautious. I have shot and missed or failed to explode at lots of IJN DDs but not a single hit. Not too worried yet about this. I am at least getting the attacks.
4. Both Allied ASW and IJN ASW is just bad. No surprise here. We each have lost two or three subs in both games. Don't really know about my DC but Japanese DC are not that good. I have yet to be hit by an airplane and I don't think mine have hit any Japanese. Maybe one or two. I have not gotten my 4/42 ugrades yet. British ships with good ASW assets are very deadly, but American DDs just do not have enough DCs. No surprise here either.
5 Airplanes are important. My ASW attacks have come against subs that have been snooped by aircraft first. I am also able to spot many subs around the West Coast and Pearl and move my ships around them.
So all in all, I am pretty pleased with my games. Seems like subs are working fairly well. I know Miller is very agressive with his subs. From your AAR, I know that you have sunk a lot of them. My opponents seem more conservative and the results seem fine. We will have to watch subs but so far I am not feeling the pain that you are.
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Sigismund of Luxemburg
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Canoerebel
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RE: Nuclear Subs
So far I have found the causes of 29 of the 47 American submarines sunk in the Pacific in World War II. Of those 29, two were sunk by submarine. Neither of those two was involved in ASW work.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
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Canoerebel
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RE: Nuclear Subs
ORIGINAL: crsutton
Well, I can't say the experience in my two games is the same. I find the Japanese subs to be very deadly but it has not proven to be the disaster that you have seen. Perhaps Miller is just very good at this. My opponents are skilled-and I am experienced in sub warfare. So far in both games (mid March and Mid Feburary) I have seen.
1. Japanese subs indeed more deadly than historical. Lone ships are dead meat and extreem caution is needed with my capital ships. So far none have been hit. Couple of light cruisers hit and sunk and a couple more damaged. One sub nailed the damaged and fleeing POW on the second day. She took three hits and sunk.
2 Long lance is a one shot killer against most all light ships. I have not had a DD, AK, TK, or Auxiliary survive after taking a torpedo. (Narwhale took a hit and survived-go figure). Yet my losses have not been excessive. I am finding that even a single escort will make a difference.
3. Yes, too many DDs and KVs are getting hit, but it has not been enough for me to be concerned. Just a little more cautious. I have shot and missed or failed to explode at lots of IJN DDs but not a single hit. Not too worried yet about this. I am at least getting the attacks.
4. Both Allied ASW and IJN ASW is just bad. No surprise here. We each have lost two or three subs in both games. Don't really know about my DC but Japanese DC are not that good. I have yet to be hit by an airplane and I don't think mine have hit any Japanese. Maybe one or two. I have not gotten my 4/42 ugrades yet. British ships with good ASW assets are very deadly, but American DDs just do not have enough DCs. No surprise here either.
5 Airplanes are important. My ASW attacks have come against subs that have been snooped by aircraft first. I am also able to spot many subs around the West Coast and Pearl and move my ships around them.
So all in all, I am pretty pleased with my games. Seems like subs are working fairly well. I know Miller is very agressive with his subs. From your AAR, I know that you have sunk a lot of them. My opponents seem more conservative and the results seem fine. We will have to watch subs but so far I am not feeling the pain that you are.
You're much earlier than us. Things didn't really get whacky until the summer of '42. That's when we suddenly discovered that Japanese submarines could operate in Allied bases and sink Allied ASW in large numbers.
Not sure how somebody can "just be good at it." All you can really do is assign a good commander to your subs and send them on their merry way. The fact that those subs can do the things they're doing in our games is just whacky.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
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Canoerebel
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RE: Nuclear Subs
Okay, here's the finally tally. Of 47 American destroyers sunk in the Pacific in World War II, exactly three were sunk by submarines...this is one more than the two sunk by Okha rocket and mine.
None of the three sunk by submarine were involved in ASW duties.
In contrast, in my game I've had six destroyers sunk by Japanese submarine in six weeks. SIX. That's twice the number America lost in the entire war. In the real war ZERO American destroyers on ASW duty (or escort duty, for that matter) were sunk by Japanese submarine. Bear in mind that all six of these destroyers were in or adjacent to major Allied bases that had aircraft on ASW patrol. This kind of thing never happened in the war - not once - never. Thus, this is a totally a-historical result. This should not be happening. And there's nothing I can do about it. I have ASW TFs and ASW air patrols operating out of major bases and Japanese subs are attacking and sinking the ASW. A few Japanese subs have been damaged or sunk, but far less than the number of American DDs sunk.
For goodness sake, the Allies don't really have enough DDs in the game, and losing one a week to submarines really hurts.
Here's the tally of American destroyers sunk in World War II:
[font="times new roman"]USS Edsall[/font][font="times new roman"] Sunk by Japanese battleships and heavy cruisers in early 1942 in Indonesian waters[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Stewart[/font][font="times new roman"] A Clemson-class destroyer, heavily damaged and captured at Soerabaya. Commissioned in the Imperial Japanese Navy as Patrol boat no 102.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Pope[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by dive bombers.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Peary[/font]: American destroyer sunk on 19 February 1942 by aircraft in [font="times new roman"]Darwin Harbour[/font][font="times new roman"].[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Pillsbury[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by naval gunfire.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Porter[/font] Sunk by air attack during the [font="times new roman"]Battle of Santa Cruz[/font][font="times new roman"] 1942.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Mahan[/font]: Sank after three kamikaze hits off [font="times new roman"]Leyte[/font][font="times new roman"] on 7 December 1944.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Reid[/font][font="times new roman"]: Sank after two kamikaze hits off Leyte on 11 December 1944.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Cassin[/font]: Sunk in dry dock alongside [font="times new roman"]USS Downes[/font][font="times new roman"] on 7 December 1941 at Pearl Harbor. Later salvaged and rebuilt.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Downes[/font]: Sunk in dry dock alongside [font="times new roman"]USS Cassin[/font][font="times new roman"] on 7 December 1941 at Pearl Harbor. Later salvaged and rebuilt.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Cushing[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by naval gunfire at Savo Island.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Preston[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by naval gunfire at Savo Island.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Blue[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by naval gunfire.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Henley[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by submarine.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Jarvis[/font][font="times new roman"] Sunk in aerial attacks during the Guadalcanal campaign in 1942.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Benham[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk at Savo Island (by torpedo, but apparently ship-launched).[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Sims[/font]: Sunk on 7 May 1942 by carrier aircraft during [font="times new roman"]Battle of Coral Sea[/font][font="times new roman"].[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Hammann[/font]: Sunk on 6 June 1942 by [font="times new roman"]Japanese submarine I-168[/font] during the [font="times new roman"]Battle of Midway[/font][font="times new roman"].[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS O'Brien[/font] Broke up under tow to Pearl harbor for repairs a month after being torpedoed by [font="times new roman"]Japanese submarine I-19[/font][font="times new roman"].[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Walke[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by naval gunfire at Savo Island.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Gwin[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk in the Slot by ship-fired torpedo.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Meredith[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by aerial attack.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Monssen[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by naval gunfire.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Chevalier[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by ship-launched torpedo.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Laffey[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by naval gunfire and ship-launched torpedo.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Strong[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by ship-launched torpedo.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS De Haven[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by air attack.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Pringle[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by kamikaze.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Aaron Ward[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by air attack.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Duncan[/font]: American destroyer sunk on 12 October 1942 by Japanese naval gunfire at the [font="times new roman"]Battle of Cape Esperance[/font][font="times new roman"].[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Brownson[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by air attack.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Luce[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by kamikaze.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Abner Read[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by kamikaze.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Bush[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by kamikaze.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Hoel[/font][font="times new roman"]: Sunk by naval gunfire.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Johnston[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by naval gunfire.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Morrison[/font]: Sank after four hits by kamikaze aircraft on 4 May 1945 while on picket duty off [font="times new roman"]Okinawa[/font][font="times new roman"].[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS William D. Porter[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by kamikaze.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Halligan[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by mine.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Twiggs[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by aerial attack.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Barton[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by ship-launched torpedo.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Cooper[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by ship-launched torpedo.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Mannert L. Abele[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by Okha rocket.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Drexler[/font][font="times new roman"]: Sank after two hits by kamikaze aircraft on 28 May 1945[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Callaghan[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by kamikaze.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Colhoun[/font]:[font="times new roman"] Sunk by kamikaze.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Little[/font]: Sunk by kamikaze.[/ul]
None of the three sunk by submarine were involved in ASW duties.
In contrast, in my game I've had six destroyers sunk by Japanese submarine in six weeks. SIX. That's twice the number America lost in the entire war. In the real war ZERO American destroyers on ASW duty (or escort duty, for that matter) were sunk by Japanese submarine. Bear in mind that all six of these destroyers were in or adjacent to major Allied bases that had aircraft on ASW patrol. This kind of thing never happened in the war - not once - never. Thus, this is a totally a-historical result. This should not be happening. And there's nothing I can do about it. I have ASW TFs and ASW air patrols operating out of major bases and Japanese subs are attacking and sinking the ASW. A few Japanese subs have been damaged or sunk, but far less than the number of American DDs sunk.
For goodness sake, the Allies don't really have enough DDs in the game, and losing one a week to submarines really hurts.
Here's the tally of American destroyers sunk in World War II:
[font="times new roman"]USS Edsall[/font][font="times new roman"] Sunk by Japanese battleships and heavy cruisers in early 1942 in Indonesian waters[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Stewart[/font][font="times new roman"] A Clemson-class destroyer, heavily damaged and captured at Soerabaya. Commissioned in the Imperial Japanese Navy as Patrol boat no 102.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Pope[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by dive bombers.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Peary[/font]: American destroyer sunk on 19 February 1942 by aircraft in [font="times new roman"]Darwin Harbour[/font][font="times new roman"].[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Pillsbury[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by naval gunfire.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Porter[/font] Sunk by air attack during the [font="times new roman"]Battle of Santa Cruz[/font][font="times new roman"] 1942.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Mahan[/font]: Sank after three kamikaze hits off [font="times new roman"]Leyte[/font][font="times new roman"] on 7 December 1944.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Reid[/font][font="times new roman"]: Sank after two kamikaze hits off Leyte on 11 December 1944.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Cassin[/font]: Sunk in dry dock alongside [font="times new roman"]USS Downes[/font][font="times new roman"] on 7 December 1941 at Pearl Harbor. Later salvaged and rebuilt.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Downes[/font]: Sunk in dry dock alongside [font="times new roman"]USS Cassin[/font][font="times new roman"] on 7 December 1941 at Pearl Harbor. Later salvaged and rebuilt.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Cushing[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by naval gunfire at Savo Island.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Preston[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by naval gunfire at Savo Island.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Blue[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by naval gunfire.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Henley[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by submarine.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Jarvis[/font][font="times new roman"] Sunk in aerial attacks during the Guadalcanal campaign in 1942.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Benham[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk at Savo Island (by torpedo, but apparently ship-launched).[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Sims[/font]: Sunk on 7 May 1942 by carrier aircraft during [font="times new roman"]Battle of Coral Sea[/font][font="times new roman"].[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Hammann[/font]: Sunk on 6 June 1942 by [font="times new roman"]Japanese submarine I-168[/font] during the [font="times new roman"]Battle of Midway[/font][font="times new roman"].[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS O'Brien[/font] Broke up under tow to Pearl harbor for repairs a month after being torpedoed by [font="times new roman"]Japanese submarine I-19[/font][font="times new roman"].[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Walke[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by naval gunfire at Savo Island.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Gwin[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk in the Slot by ship-fired torpedo.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Meredith[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by aerial attack.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Monssen[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by naval gunfire.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Chevalier[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by ship-launched torpedo.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Laffey[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by naval gunfire and ship-launched torpedo.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Strong[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by ship-launched torpedo.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS De Haven[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by air attack.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Pringle[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by kamikaze.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Aaron Ward[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by air attack.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Duncan[/font]: American destroyer sunk on 12 October 1942 by Japanese naval gunfire at the [font="times new roman"]Battle of Cape Esperance[/font][font="times new roman"].[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Brownson[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by air attack.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Luce[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by kamikaze.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Abner Read[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by kamikaze.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Bush[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by kamikaze.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Hoel[/font][font="times new roman"]: Sunk by naval gunfire.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Johnston[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by naval gunfire.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Morrison[/font]: Sank after four hits by kamikaze aircraft on 4 May 1945 while on picket duty off [font="times new roman"]Okinawa[/font][font="times new roman"].[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS William D. Porter[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by kamikaze.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Halligan[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by mine.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Twiggs[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by aerial attack.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Barton[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by ship-launched torpedo.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Cooper[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by ship-launched torpedo.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Mannert L. Abele[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by Okha rocket.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Drexler[/font][font="times new roman"]: Sank after two hits by kamikaze aircraft on 28 May 1945[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Callaghan[/font][font="times new roman"]: [/font][font="times new roman"]Sunk by kamikaze.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Colhoun[/font]:[font="times new roman"] Sunk by kamikaze.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]USS Little[/font]: Sunk by kamikaze.[/ul]
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
RE: Nuclear Subs
The AI's subs haven't been particularly successful in the multiple starts that I've made against it in all versions of AE. My ASW hasn't done a lot, but then I haven't tried to hunt down enemy subs too hard, because I'm very conservative with TFs and don't tend to have a whole bunch of them sailing around at all times. I also keep a lot of planes on Naval Search, with a good number on ASW also, so they tend to keep spotting the Japanese subs, which is half the battle.
One thing that I have noticed that seems a bit odd to me is that I have never had a YP ASW TF run into an enemy sub. (I tend to keep my ASW TFs homogeneous if possible.) KV TFs, AM TFs, DD TFs, and so on have all found their share of enemy subs, for better or worse, but not YP TFs. (AMs seem to be the most susceptible to being surprised and sunk.)
One thing that I have noticed that seems a bit odd to me is that I have never had a YP ASW TF run into an enemy sub. (I tend to keep my ASW TFs homogeneous if possible.) KV TFs, AM TFs, DD TFs, and so on have all found their share of enemy subs, for better or worse, but not YP TFs. (AMs seem to be the most susceptible to being surprised and sunk.)
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Mike Scholl
- Posts: 6187
- Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 1:17 am
- Location: Kansas City, MO
RE: Nuclear Subs
ORIGINAL: Terminus
IJN submarine doctrine is no longer an issue, so Jap subs are more aggressive than they were in stock.
But those that could reach the US West Coast were huge, clumsy, hard-to-manuever pieces of junk. In heavily patrolled waters as he describes, they should be going down in droves.
RE: Nuclear Subs
ORIGINAL: Terminus
IJN submarine doctrine is no longer an issue, so Jap subs are more aggressive than they were in stock.
On this note, I hate to say it but....give your local ASW TF's w/ the max hex reaction over to "AI / Computer Control", the AI does a fairly decent job in nailing Jap Subs believe it or not... at least better than I...[8|]
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Canoerebel
- Posts: 21099
- Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2002 11:21 pm
- Location: Northwestern Georgia, USA
- Contact:
RE: Nuclear Subs
ORIGINAL: LrfssORIGINAL: Terminus
IJN submarine doctrine is no longer an issue, so Jap subs are more aggressive than they were in stock.
On this note, I hate to say it but....give your local ASW TF's w/ the max hex reaction over to "AI / Computer Control", the AI does a fairly decent job in nailing Jap Subs believe it or not... at least better than I...[8|]
I've tried putting ASW on computer control without any luck. The computer-controlled TFs seem to stay in port and don't react.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
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Canoerebel
- Posts: 21099
- Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2002 11:21 pm
- Location: Northwestern Georgia, USA
- Contact:
RE: Nuclear Subs
ORIGINAL: Mike SchollBut those that could reach the US West Coast were huge, clumsy, hard-to-manuever pieces of junk. In heavily patrolled waters as he describes, they should be going down in droves.ORIGINAL: Terminus
IJN submarine doctrine is no longer an issue, so Jap subs are more aggressive than they were in stock.
Every destroyer sunk has been in or adjacent to a level six port or higher, and each base had ASW air patrols.
IJN sub doctrine proves my point. In the real war the Japanese totally concentrated on combat ships and still managed to sink just THREE American destroyers - none of which were on ASW patrol. In my game with Miller his subs are sinking plenty of transports, but they've still managed to sink SIX American destroyers in six weeks - and those six were in dedicated ASW TFs.
The results are totally, completely, irreconcilably at odds with the real war.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
RE: Nuclear Subs
ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
ORIGINAL: Terminus
IJN submarine doctrine is no longer an issue, so Jap subs are more aggressive than they were in stock.
Okay, sub doctrine is off...but that shouldn't allow them to operate with near-impunity in and next to major bases.
Sub doctrine makes my point even stronger. Even though in the real war Japanese subs only took shots at combat ships, they rarely hit Allied destroyers. And I'll guarantee that very few of those hits were against destroyers specifically on ASW patrol (most were probably like the destroyer trying to rescue survivors at Midway or destroyers serving as escorts to convoys.
I'm having the same problem versus the AI right off the Home Islands. And its worse for us JFBs because even when we can see them, our ASW is so pathetic we can't drive them off.
One thing I have noticed, my subs when set to patrol, linger and max react have a tendency to follow allied convoys for vast distances, picking off ships whenever the opportunity presents itself. I'm not sure how far they are following, but it is a long way. Once the AI determines that my subs can no longer catch the targets, it returns to its patrol points.
So the subs in question may not be patrolling close to the major bases, but rather moving in due to reactions then moving back out making them hard to detect and engage.
Distant Worlds Fan
'When in doubt...attack!'
'When in doubt...attack!'
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Canoerebel
- Posts: 21099
- Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2002 11:21 pm
- Location: Northwestern Georgia, USA
- Contact:
RE: Nuclear Subs
These subs are parked pretty close - I've had packs operating west of San Francisco, north of Pearl, and right next to Noumea. They may indeed be reacting into the base hexes, but they are awfully close to begin with. My air patrols are spotting them and some of my ASW TFs are reacting to them, but by an large the ASW attacks are unsuccessful at great hazard to the ASW ships.
P.S. On our latest turn I lost another ASW-dedicated ship - this time an AVD near Los Angeles.
P.S. On our latest turn I lost another ASW-dedicated ship - this time an AVD near Los Angeles.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
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Kwik E Mart
- Posts: 2447
- Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2004 10:42 pm
RE: Nuclear Subs
aren't we supposed to be using some sort of harbor patrol craft now in AE? could these make a difference? maybe not with ASW destroyers getting slapped around...
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