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Wanted: Information on Floating Dry Docks

 
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Wanted: Information on Floating Dry Docks - 11/9/2009 3:16:48 PM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8023
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline 		Looking for data on floating dry docks for the DB mod. Stock AE only has the largest Floating Drydocks but we want to expand that as far as possible in “the Babes”.

We have rather good information on US Navy docks. But would be interested in data for Civilian Docks along the US West Coast or in Hawaii. Also service history, especially for the smallest docks.

Considerable data on British Naval Docks, but some questions. We know of:
AFD 9 (55,000 ton lift) - Singapore 12/7/41
AFD 10 (50,000 ton lift) - Singapore 12/7/41
AFD 17 (2,750 ton lift) - Sydney June, 1945 for British Pacific Fleet
AFD 18 (2,750 ton lift) - Darwin prior to June, 1945
AFD 20 (2,750 ton lift) - British Pacific Fleet
AFD 22 (2,750 ton lift) - Replaced AFD 23 at Trincomalee
AFD 23 (50,000 ton lift) - Completed 7/44, Lost Trincomalee 8/44.

There are a lot of references to a Kings Floating Dry Dock in Singapore, apparently used by the Japanese after capture of Singapore. Both AFD 9 and AFD 10 are listed as scuttled. Does anyone know anything about Kings Floating Dry Dock? Is it –9 or –10 raised/repaired? Or another one?

Also, replacing a 50,000 ton lift dock with a 2,750 ton one is a bit odd. Anyone have better data?

And, any others? Naval or commercial docks in Burma or India??

As for the Dutch, we have reference to four naval floating docks. Three at Soerabaya of 15,500, 3,500 and 2,500 ton lift, and one at Tjilatjap of 8,000 tons. The latter moved from Batavia in December, 1941 (not sure but probably after war began). Can anyone verify this? Were there any others, especially at Batavia?

The only reference to a floating drydock in Australia or New Zealand that we have so far is the small dock at Darwin that was occupied by a corvette during the big air raid. Any others? Any at all…

Almost nothing on Japan. There was apparently a 4,000 ton dock at Truk – any one have any details on this (or others)?

Any and all help appreciated. This type of data is hard to find. Would like as precise data as possible – especially lift capacity and service dates/locations.
Post #: 1
RE: Wanted: Information on Floating Dry Docks - 11/9/2009 3:40:20 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 13708
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline 		Don, check this out.  Some info on a floating dry dock at Truk:

http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/T/r/Truk.htm

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RE: Wanted: Information on Floating Dry Docks - 11/9/2009 4:15:43 PM   
Buck Beach

 

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From: Covina,CA,USA
Status: offline 		I was looking at this last night. References a large dry dock arriving at Fremantle in 1943 for use with the submarines,

http://www.subvetpaul.com/TheFremantle.htm

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RE: Wanted: Information on Floating Dry Docks - 11/9/2009 4:19:00 PM   
Shark7


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From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline 		Don IIRC there was at least one floating dock and a small repair yard at Saigon, no doubt those would have been commandeered by the Japanese. I don't have any actual info on it other than seeing it mentioned in some articles I've read.

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RE: Wanted: Information on Floating Dry Docks - 11/9/2009 4:40:13 PM   
Don Bowen


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From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach

I was looking at this last night. References a large dry dock arriving at Fremantle in 1943 for use with the submarines,

http://www.subvetpaul.com/TheFremantle.htm


Thanks. This appears to be a USN floating drydock. Pretty good data on those. We really, really need British/Dutch/Australian/India/New Zealand dock data. Plus Japanese of course.

(in reply to Buck Beach)
Post #: 5
RE: Wanted: Information on Floating Dry Docks - 11/9/2009 9:45:25 PM   
oldman45


Posts: 2026
Joined: 5/1/2005
From: Jacksonville Fl
Status: offline 		Not wanting to hijack this too much, how will the floating dry dock work? To further explain the question, In my last game I sent a drydock to Java because I had a ship there too big in the port to repair the hull damage. I had assumed the dry dock would allow me to repair it. But it still had X's across the board for what repair facility it could be assigned. Will these new docks rectify this, ie will they have a value assigned so the big ones can lift a BB if required?

Sorry for the hijack

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RE: Wanted: Information on Floating Dry Docks - 11/9/2009 9:47:09 PM   
oldman45


Posts: 2026
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From: Jacksonville Fl
Status: offline 		Also there is/was a 16k graving dock in Saigon, (If I recall it can/could handle a 180m ship.) I have not been able pin down when the floating dock was first there.

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RE: Wanted: Information on Floating Dry Docks - 11/9/2009 9:51:24 PM   
Don Bowen


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From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45

Not wanting to hijack this too much, how will the floating dry dock work? To further explain the question, In my last game I sent a drydock to Java because I had a ship there too big in the port to repair the hull damage. I had assumed the dry dock would allow me to repair it. But it still had X's across the board for what repair facility it could be assigned. Will these new docks rectify this, ie will they have a value assigned so the big ones can lift a BB if required?

Sorry for the hijack


Current Float Dry Docks are unlimited in capacity. Adding capacity will occur with patch 2, with a zero still considered unlimited for backwards compatability.

ARDs only repair float damage. That may be the issue.

As of Patch 2, ARDs will have a capacity rating just like shipyards. Difference in priority however, as shipyards take up more capacity for priority repairs to emulate assignment of extra work gangs. Floating drydocks do not have this feature.

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RE: Wanted: Information on Floating Dry Docks - 11/10/2009 1:28:25 PM   
Skyland


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quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45

Also there is/was a 16k graving dock in Saigon, (If I recall it can/could handle a 180m ship.) I have not been able pin down when the floating dock was first there.


The graving dock is still there, you can check using google earth. Regarding the floating dock, there was one (50 x 9 meters capacity) in the 30' but found no mention after.

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RE: Wanted: Information on Floating Dry Docks - 11/10/2009 2:03:38 PM   
Skyland


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From: France
Status: offline 		Additionally, there was one floating drydock at Haiphong in the same period. His capacity was 96.5 x 16.4 meters and 2300 tons. In fact, it was 2 independent elements that can be combined into one if necessary.

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RE: Wanted: Information on Floating Dry Docks - 11/10/2009 2:48:06 PM   
Don Bowen


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From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Skyland

Additionally, there was one floating drydock at Haiphong in the same period. His capacity was 96.5 x 16.4 meters and 2300 tons. In fact, it was 2 independent elements that can be combined into one if necessary.


Was this unit available for use by the Japanese?

(in reply to Skyland)
Post #: 11
RE: Wanted: Information on Floating Dry Docks - 11/10/2009 3:03:16 PM   
Skyland


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

Was this unit available for use by the Japanese?


It was a civilian unit so may be if they pay for or by requisition. But found no trace of usage by japan until now.

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Post #: 12
RE: Wanted: Information on Floating Dry Docks - 11/10/2009 7:44:08 PM   
AlaskanWarrior


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From: Anchorage, Alaska
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45

Not wanting to hijack this too much, how will the floating dry dock work? To further explain the question, In my last game I sent a drydock to Java because I had a ship there too big in the port to repair the hull damage. I had assumed the dry dock would allow me to repair it. But it still had X's across the board for what repair facility it could be assigned. Will these new docks rectify this, ie will they have a value assigned so the big ones can lift a BB if required?

Sorry for the hijack


Current Float Dry Docks are unlimited in capacity. Adding capacity will occur with patch 2, with a zero still considered unlimited for backwards compatability.

ARDs only repair float damage. That may be the issue.

As of Patch 2, ARDs will have a capacity rating just like shipyards. Difference in priority however, as shipyards take up more capacity for priority repairs to emulate assignment of extra work gangs. Floating drydocks do not have this feature.

Does this mean that the smaller AFD's that the USN used will also be represented?

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RE: Wanted: Information on Floating Dry Docks - 11/11/2009 7:14:11 PM   
Shark7


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From: The Big Nowhere
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quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45

Also there is/was a 16k graving dock in Saigon, (If I recall it can/could handle a 180m ship.) I have not been able pin down when the floating dock was first there.


I bet that graving dock is the one I'm thinking about. Probably only good for up to cruiser size ships (as you stated) due to Saigon being a shallow harbour.

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RE: Wanted: Information on Floating Dry Docks - 11/11/2009 11:35:12 PM   
Local Yokel


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From: Somerset, U.K.
Status: offline 		You've probably seen the CINCPAC - CINCPOA report 'Field Survey of the Japanese Defenses on Truk', but in case not, it includes the following dimensions of the floating dry dock:

Length - 117m
Breadth - 16.7m
Height of side wall - 9.2m
Displacement in light condition - 2027 T

Unfortunately the report does not appear to include a figure for the maximum vessel tonnage that could be accomodated, merely that it was used for ships of destroyer size downwards.

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RE: Wanted: Information on Floating Dry Docks - 11/12/2009 12:05:01 AM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8023
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Local Yokel

You've probably seen the CINCPAC - CINCPOA report 'Field Survey of the Japanese Defenses on Truk', but in case not, it includes the following dimensions of the floating dry dock:

Length - 117m
Breadth - 16.7m
Height of side wall - 9.2m
Displacement in light condition - 2027 T

Unfortunately the report does not appear to include a figure for the maximum vessel tonnage that could be accomodated, merely that it was used for ships of destroyer size downwards.


I believe the value is 2500 tons. Our capacity method is the same as shipyards (1 point = 1000 tons) so we can't do half-thousands. Probably be 3,000.

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Post #: 16
RE: Wanted: Information on Floating Dry Docks - 11/12/2009 12:28:40 AM   
Shark7


Posts: 6341
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Local Yokel

You've probably seen the CINCPAC - CINCPOA report 'Field Survey of the Japanese Defenses on Truk', but in case not, it includes the following dimensions of the floating dry dock:

Length - 117m
Breadth - 16.7m
Height of side wall - 9.2m
Displacement in light condition - 2027 T

Unfortunately the report does not appear to include a figure for the maximum vessel tonnage that could be accomodated, merely that it was used for ships of destroyer size downwards.


I believe the value is 2500 tons. Our capacity method is the same as shipyards (1 point = 1000 tons) so we can't do half-thousands. Probably be 3,000.


Wasn't Truk also used mostly for submarine repairs? I seem to recall reading that somewhere. 2000-2500 tons would certainly be sufficient for most submarines.

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RE: Wanted: Information on Floating Dry Docks - 11/12/2009 10:32:16 PM   
Zebedee


Posts: 523
Joined: 8/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
There are a lot of references to a Kings Floating Dry Dock in Singapore, apparently used by the Japanese after capture of Singapore. Both AFD 9 and AFD 10 are listed as scuttled. Does anyone know anything about Kings Floating Dry Dock? Is it –9 or –10 raised/repaired? Or another one?


Bit confused. Are you sure that the King's Dock being referred to is a floating dock and not the King George VI Graving Dock? Admiralty IX Floating Dock was in use by the Japanese and was targeted (along with the King's Dock) by bombing raids in January 1945. (cf eg p.156, ed. Cate and Craven, Army Air Forces in World War II, volume 5.) 58th Bomb Wing's B-29s reported that they 'sank' the floating dry dock and it settled on the harbour floor.

< Message edited by Zebedee -- 11/12/2009 10:33:46 PM >

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RE: Wanted: Information on Floating Dry Docks - 11/12/2009 11:00:43 PM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8023
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From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zebedee

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
There are a lot of references to a Kings Floating Dry Dock in Singapore, apparently used by the Japanese after capture of Singapore. Both AFD 9 and AFD 10 are listed as scuttled. Does anyone know anything about Kings Floating Dry Dock? Is it –9 or –10 raised/repaired? Or another one?


Bit confused. Are you sure that the King's Dock being referred to is a floating dock and not the King George VI Graving Dock? Admiralty IX Floating Dock was in use by the Japanese and was targeted (along with the King's Dock) by bombing raids in January 1945. (cf eg p.156, ed. Cate and Craven, Army Air Forces in World War II, volume 5.) 58th Bomb Wing's B-29s reported that they 'sank' the floating dry dock and it settled on the harbour floor.


Beats the hell out'a me. I found one reference from which I assumed it was a floating dry dock. Not hampered in the least by knowing what I am talking about.

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RE: Wanted: Information on Floating Dry Docks - 11/12/2009 11:58:53 PM   
Zebedee


Posts: 523
Joined: 8/30/2005
Status: offline 		Requisite pinches of salt, but hope some of this may of use in at least tracking things down properly:


I have AFD-9 reportedly captured by Japanese intact. King's Dock I'd have thought would be a reference to the King George VI Graving Dock but if there was another floating dock there, who knows? I only thought there was the one at Singapore with significant 'lift'. My understanding was that AFD-10 was bought from the Dutch in September 39 and was for use by destroyers and lightened cruisers in order to free up space for bigger ships in the graving dock and AFD-9. (AFD-10 seems to have been repaired post war as it is listed as being used by frigates.)

AFD 20 left Gibraltar on 31st December 1944 and arrived at Aden 21st February 1945. Destination was Manus (Admiralty Islands) via Cochin and Darwin. (Apparantly it rendezvoused with its sister AFD 18 at Cochin for the passage to Darwin - AFD 18 arrived in Darwin 24th May 1945, AFD 20 two days earlier).

AFD 35 was under construction in Bombay but not completed until January 1947 (although it was scheduled to be completed in 1946). No info on capacity (beam 175' if that's of any use whatsoever heh).

I've also seen references to AFD-26 at Trincomalee (or at least leaving there in 1947).

Sorry it's so sketchy.


< Message edited by Zebedee -- 11/13/2009 12:00:21 AM >

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RE: Wanted: Information on Floating Dry Docks - 11/13/2009 12:58:09 AM   
Don Bowen


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Some good data, thanks.

Lenton gives 50,000 ton lift for AFD-10 but the dimensions don't seem right for that. 391 x 62 x 17

AFD-9 is given as 55,000 lift, 857 x 126 x 40.

AFD 17-22 (and others) are listed as 2,750 tons, 380 x 50 x 19 ft.

It's looking like the data for AFD-10 is out of kilter. Lift should be circa 3,00 - 3,500 tons, not 50,000.

17, 18, 20, and 22 were all in the Pacific, although your data is better than anything I have for arrival dates.

Lenton gives AFD-26 as 2,750 ton lift and completed at Calcutta in 2/44, but it is not listed in the Indian Ocean or Pacific Fleets as of war's end. But something is missing, as the only replacement for AFD-23 (50,000 lift) is AFD-22 (2,750 lift) and maybe AFD-26 (also 2,750). I note that AFD-27 was sold at Batavia in 1947 ?!?!?. It is listed as 59,000 ton lift but is 477 x 63 x 19. I obviously do not understand the relationship between floating dry dock size and lift capacity.

Lenton also has a 5/46 completion date for AFD-35, with sections built at Karachi and assembled at Bombay. This is a 50,000 ton lift dock.

Lenton (my best source) also gives AFD-42 assembled Karachi 1/46, AFD-43 assembled Bombay 11/45, and AFD-44 assembled Vizagapatam 11/45. All are tiny, just 750 tons lift.

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RE: Wanted: Information on Floating Dry Docks - 11/13/2009 2:17:20 AM   
Zebedee


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Status: offline 		AFD-17 I have at Sydney with an arrival date there of May, 1945. It left Reykavik 9 months earlier, leaving Gibraltar late September 1944, and travelled via Colobo and Cochin.

AFD-22 left HMS St.Christopher,Fort William, Scotland, for Trincomalee in December 1944.

The operation which moved AFD-26 in 47 also moved AFD-22 (which was waiting at Aden), AFD-35 and AFD-36 (or AFD-46?) for what little that's worth.

Was the floating dock at Tsingtao which was destroyed in the siege of Russo-Japanese war ever replaced?


< Message edited by Zebedee -- 11/13/2009 2:20:05 AM >

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RE: Wanted: Information on Floating Dry Docks - 11/13/2009 5:53:15 AM   
oldman45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


Some good data, thanks.

Lenton gives 50,000 ton lift for AFD-10 but the dimensions don't seem right for that. 391 x 62 x 17


I wonder if thats a misprint and it was ment to be written in meters. What data I found on the Siagon docks was all in meters.

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Post #: 23
RE: Wanted: Information on Floating Dry Docks - 11/13/2009 10:42:26 AM   
Zebedee


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Joined: 8/30/2005
Status: offline 		Here are my sources for 'AFD-10'.

quote:

(2)- The Sabang Floating Dock has been acquired in the Dutch
East Indies' at a cost of 760,000 guilders and will
shortly be towed to Singapore, This will take destroyers
and small cruisers if lightened.


Footnote equates cost to "£95,000 at the current rate of exchange."

Source: 1st Monthly Report submitted by the First Lord of the Admiralty. (CAB 68/1/25)

quote:

Sabang Floating Dock is expected to leave Sabang, in
the Dutch East Indies, for Singapore on November 10th, in tow of
a Dutch tug. It will provide docking facilities at Singapore
Naval Base for Destroyers and Submarines which at present can
only be docked in the existing Floating Dock or Graving Dock,
both of which are of a size to accommodate the largest warships.


source: 2nd Monthly Report submitted by the First Lord of the
Admiralty, covering the month of October, 1939 (CAB 68/2/37).

November's report (3rd Monthly Report submitted by the First Lord of the
Admiralty (CAB 68/4/1) ) says that it arrived on 28th November 1939.

A Dutch source from 1921 says, "A floating-dock, with a practical lifting capacity of 2,600 tons was brought from Soerabaja [to Sabang] in 1893." The Ports of the Dutch East Indies by Mr. Wouter Cool (President of the Board of Directors of the Dutch Indies Railway, Semarang). This may be the floating dock which the British bought.

Hope that's of use.


< Message edited by Zebedee -- 11/13/2009 11:08:51 AM >

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RE: Wanted: Information on Floating Dry Docks - 11/13/2009 1:27:35 PM   
Don Bowen


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Excellent.

"For destroyers and lightened cruisers", combined with the size similarities, would make me guess about 4,000 tons (maybe 5,000). That would be the C and D type light cruisers.


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Post #: 25
RE: Wanted: Information on Floating Dry Docks - 11/13/2009 2:20:48 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 6341
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Status: offline 		I would wager that at least one of the floating dry docks at Surubaya would have been pressed into service by the Japanese, since USS Stewart was salvaged and repaired after it was *destroyed in that drydock.

There were 2 steel floating docks in Sabang in 1939. There was also a graving dock in Samerang apparantly.

Also, there appear to have been 3 Civilian floating docks at Surubaya.

Source: http://astilleros1939.blogspot.com/2009/07/construccion-naval-y-reparacion-de_5625.html

If you can't read Spanish you can run that through a translator with no problems.

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Post #: 26
RE: Wanted: Information on Floating Dry Docks - 11/13/2009 2:47:49 PM   
Don Bowen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

I would wager that at least one of the floating dry docks at Surubaya would have been pressed into service by the Japanese, since USS Stewart was salvaged and repaired after it was *destroyed in that drydock.

There were 2 steel floating docks in Sabang in 1939. There was also a graving dock in Samerang apparantly.

Also, there appear to have been 3 Civilian floating docks at Surubaya.

Source: http://astilleros1939.blogspot.com/2009/07/construccion-naval-y-reparacion-de_5625.html

If you can't read Spanish you can run that through a translator with no problems.


Thanks, I'll check it out. No puedo leer español but I can figure it out.

Aware of three floating drydocks at Soerabaya due to ships that were lost/scuttled in them when the port was evacuated. Maybe the same ones.

Do you think the two at Sabang were still there? Not 100% sure what a graving dock is. Floating? Fixed? Funereal?

(in reply to Shark7)
Post #: 27
RE: Wanted: Information on Floating Dry Docks - 11/13/2009 3:04:14 PM   
Zebedee


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Status: offline 		Did some more digging, and I think Churchill's second report may be closer to the truth about size. The only floating dock at Sabang was the one in private ownership which the British bought in 1939, which was rated at 3000 tons (and fits in with the 1921 comment about 'practical lifting capacity' of 2600).

According to the Dutch source previously cited, the floating dock at Batavia (later moved to Tjilatjap) was only 4000 tons in capacity (although he does seems to be conservative in his figures in comparison to other sources). Whether this was the same floating dock which was sent from Holland in the 1880s and rated at 5000 tons I don't know. Cool also places two floating docks (one government and one privately owned) at Soerbaja at this time period [ie 1921], rating them at 14000 tons and 3500 tons respectively.

There was a floating dock at Wellington harbour - the Jubliee dock. It was towed from Britain to there in 1931. Here's a pic of it in the absence of info (5000 tons?): http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/shipbuilding/2/5/1


< Message edited by Zebedee -- 11/13/2009 3:10:11 PM >

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RE: Wanted: Information on Floating Dry Docks - 11/13/2009 3:51:23 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 6341
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From: The Big Nowhere
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

I would wager that at least one of the floating dry docks at Surubaya would have been pressed into service by the Japanese, since USS Stewart was salvaged and repaired after it was *destroyed in that drydock.

There were 2 steel floating docks in Sabang in 1939. There was also a graving dock in Samerang apparantly.

Also, there appear to have been 3 Civilian floating docks at Surubaya.

Source: http://astilleros1939.blogspot.com/2009/07/construccion-naval-y-reparacion-de_5625.html

If you can't read Spanish you can run that through a translator with no problems.


Thanks, I'll check it out. No puedo leer español but I can figure it out.

Aware of three floating drydocks at Soerabaya due to ships that were lost/scuttled in them when the port was evacuated. Maybe the same ones.

Do you think the two at Sabang were still there? Not 100% sure what a graving dock is. Floating? Fixed? Funereal?


Graving Dock: The classic form of drydock, properly known as graving dock, is a narrow basin, usually made of earthen berms and concrete, closed by gates or by a caisson, into which a vessel may be floated and the water pumped out, leaving the vessel supported on blocks.

So in game terms, its the 'Repair Shipyard' device.

Also note that if you run that site through google translator, you can find info on basically every drydock and shipyard in theatre.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graving_dock

< Message edited by Shark7 -- 11/13/2009 3:53:15 PM >

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