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Japanese Death Star Artillery - 11/4/2009 6:53:40 PM   
Canoerebel

 

Posts: 2476
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From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
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Gents,

There have been many posts - including a few by me - about the strength of Japanese artillery. Many of these posts have described the absolute devastation wrought by massed IJ artillery on Luzon and at Singapore.

I have just come face to face with this tactic in China in my PBEM with Miller. He brought seventeen (!!! !!!) artillery units to Chengchow, a key base on the Chinese main line of resistance. Chengchow has/had forts and should have been relatively immune from "artillery death star carnage." The results of back to back bombardments by Miller - 2,399 casualties the first day and 2,088 the second. Two of my units essentially vaporized. What was a strongly fortified position that had held in a long-term seige is suddenly decimated.

There is no way that the designers could intend for artillery to repeatedly cause this kind of damage to troops in fortified hexes. There is no way, as the game is currently configured, that the Allies have a chance to hold China against massed Japanese artillery.

Please, Developers, do something to address this situation. Immediately.

Sincerely,

Canoe "Bludgeoned to Death By IJ Artillery Death Star" Rebel
Post #: 1
RE: Japanese Death Star Artillery - 11/4/2009 7:06:59 PM   
EUBanana


Posts: 2543
Joined: 9/30/2003
From: Little England
Status: online
I do like damaging artillery and I think in general it is an improvement over arty in WITP, but it does seem a bit high.

I tried to track down some numbers on massed artillery and casualties. In March 1918 the opening bombardment of Operation Michael - which is probably about as close to a 'bombardment action' as real life gets - inflicted 7500 casualties to those on the receiving end, specifically by bombardment alone.

I'm not sure how many guns that was but it was 1.1 million shells worth, so a number I presume to be orders of magnitude above what the Japanese can manage. I think supply needs to figure into these things a lot more than it does.

Maybe there should be a 'massed bombardment' option that dishes out major casualties at a major supply cost, and a normal bombardment that works kinda like ye olde WITP.

I dunno.

_____________________________



Mad Dog

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 2
RE: Japanese Death Star Artillery - 11/4/2009 7:07:57 PM   
LoBaron

 

Posts: 146
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Austria, Vienna
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Just wonder what happens if you set 90% of your infantry to reserve and rotate them to combat if
needed. Would the losses drop? Not sure but i think so. And the manual says they get out of reserve
if needed and you face a deliberate attack.

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What happens when an unstoppable force hits an immovable object?

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Post #: 3
RE: Japanese Death Star Artillery - 11/4/2009 7:12:46 PM   
Canoerebel

 

Posts: 2476
Joined: 12/14/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron
Just wonder what happens if you set 90% of your infantry to reserve and rotate them to combat if
needed. Would the losses drop? Not sure but i think so. And the manual says they get out of reserve
if needed and you face a deliberate attack.


No, this is not how "reserves" are treated on defense according to the manual, which says:
"Units in Reserve mode on the offensive are available to exploit a
possible breach in the enemy line. On the defensive with a proper leadership
check, the commanding officer may release his reserves to plug a potential
gap in his lines and thus alter the outcome of a battle by changing the final
odds. Reserve units are withheld from battle unless a commander passes
a Land leadership check to commit his reserves. The reserve unit will not
suffer casualties unless committed to the battle. In addition only units in
Reserve will be allowed to Pursue in combat. A unit may only be placed
into Reserve if other friendly units are in the hex. If a unit is in Reserve
and no friendly units are in the hex it will revert to Combat mode."


(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 4
RE: Japanese Death Star Artillery - 11/4/2009 7:24:44 PM   
LoBaron

 

Posts: 146
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Austria, Vienna
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Hm this isnt much different from what i thought except for the leader test.
might be worth it if you have at least ok leadership.

it also says:
If attacked and the initial assault adds are greater than 2:1 a unit in reservere
may be added to the combat if the units leader passes a land check.

so basically you trade a bit weaker defense for less bombardement losses.

i gonna try this at the AI at least, note sure about the outcome. but genrally speaking as the
allieds get kicked around in China anyway by what i hear (don´t know how erstads test game
is doing) its worth a try.



_____________________________

What happens when an unstoppable force hits an immovable object?

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 5
RE: Japanese Death Star Artillery - 11/4/2009 7:24:56 PM   
treespider


Posts: 8046
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Knoxville
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Gents,

There have been many posts - including a few by me - about the strength of Japanese artillery. Many of these posts have described the absolute devastation wrought by massed IJ artillery on Luzon and at Singapore.

I have just come face to face with this tactic in China in my PBEM with Miller. He brought seventeen (!!! !!!) artillery units to Chengchow, a key base on the Chinese main line of resistance. Chengchow has/had forts and should have been relatively immune from "artillery death star carnage." The results of back to back bombardments by Miller - 2,399 casualties the first day and 2,088 the second. Two of my units essentially vaporized. What was a strongly fortified position that had held in a long-term seige is suddenly decimated.

There is no way that the designers could intend for artillery to repeatedly cause this kind of damage to troops in fortified hexes. There is no way, as the game is currently configured, that the Allies have a chance to hold China against massed Japanese artillery.

Please, Developers, do something to address this situation. Immediately.

Sincerely,

Canoe "Bludgeoned to Death By IJ Artillery Death Star" Rebel



So not counting the artillery at Hong Kong/Canton I see a total of 9 Artillery units in north and central China....sounds like Miller bought out some Kwantung Army artillery... perhaps time for a house rule...and maybe get Andy to "permanently restrict" the heavy guns in Manchuria.

_____________________________

C'est la guerre...

"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 6
RE: Japanese Death Star Artillery - 11/4/2009 7:27:21 PM   
Canoerebel

 

Posts: 2476
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider
So not counting the artillery at Hong Kong/Canton I see a total of 9 Artillery units in north and central China....sounds like Miller bought out some Kwantung Army artillery... perhaps time for a house rule...and maybe get Andy to "permanently restrict" the heavy guns in Manchuria.


Yes, he paid political points to pull in Kwangtung units. We don't have any house rules in our game, anyhow, so I've gotta take my medicine while trying to figure out how to defend China.

(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 7
RE: Japanese Death Star Artillery - 11/4/2009 7:28:51 PM   
Canoerebel

 

Posts: 2476
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron
Hm this isnt much different from what i thought except for the leader test.
might be worth it if you have at least ok leadership.

it also says:
If attacked and the initial assault adds are greater than 2:1 a unit in reservere
may be added to the combat if the units leader passes a land check.

so basically you trade a bit weaker defense for less bombardement losses.

i gonna try this at the AI at least, note sure about the outcome. but genrally speaking as the
allieds get kicked around in China anyway by what i hear (don´t know how erstads test game
is doing) its worth a try.


The Chinese don't have leaders that can pass Leadership Tests. Chinese Leaders are generally in the 30s and 40s at this point of the war. Roll for a Leadership Test and they are likely to commit suicide.

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 8
RE: Japanese Death Star Artillery - 11/4/2009 7:31:09 PM   
Canoerebel

 

Posts: 2476
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: online
Here's the first artillery bombardment at Chengchow - note the number of IJ artillery units and the devastation wrought:

Ground combat at Chengchow (88,44)

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 8676 troops, 335 guns, 442 vehicles, Assault Value = 1765

Defending force 67475 troops, 410 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1430

Japanese ground losses:
     Guns lost 1 (1 destroyed, 0 disabled)
     Vehicles lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
     2399 casualties reported
        Squads: 45 destroyed, 26 disabled
        Non Combat: 58 destroyed, 46 disabled
        Engineers: 6 destroyed, 1 disabled
     Guns lost 4 (1 destroyed, 3 disabled)


Assaulting units:...
   3rd Ind.Mixed Brigade...
   15th Division...
   58th Infantry Brigade...
   52nd Infantry Brigade...
   7th Ind.Mixed Brigade...
   35th Division...
   59th Infantry Brigade...
   62nd Infantry Brigade...
   56th Infantry Brigade...
   32nd Division...
   1st Army...
   7th Medium Field Artillery Regiment...
   5th Medium Field Artillery Regiment...
   1st Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion...
   4th Medium Field Artillery Regiment...
   13th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion...
   4th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion...
   11th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion...
   12th Medium Field Artillery Regiment...
   9th Medium Field Artillery Regiment...
   6th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion...
   22nd Medium Field Artillery Regiment...
   2nd Hvy.Artillery Regiment...
   4th RF Gun Battalion...
   Tonei Hvy Gun Regiment...
   12th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion...
   7th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion...
   20th Medium Field Artillery Regiment...
...
Defending units:...
   27th Chinese Corps...
   40th Chinese Corps...
   85th Chinese Corps...
   93rd Chinese Corps...
   96th Chinese Corps...
   56th Chinese Corps...
   80th Chinese Corps...
   48th Chinese Corps...
   13th Chinese Corps...
   9th Chinese Corps...
   98th Chinese Corps...
   39th Group Army...
   1st War Area ...
   Jingcha War Area ...
   4th Group Army...
   24th Group Army...
   10th Chinese Base Force...

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 9
RE: Japanese Death Star Artillery - 11/4/2009 7:31:36 PM   
treespider


Posts: 8046
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Knoxville
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider
So not counting the artillery at Hong Kong/Canton I see a total of 9 Artillery units in north and central China....sounds like Miller bought out some Kwantung Army artillery... perhaps time for a house rule...and maybe get Andy to "permanently restrict" the heavy guns in Manchuria.


Yes, he paid political points to pull in Kwangtung units. We don't have any house rules in our game, anyhow, so I've gotta take my medicine while trying to figure out how to defend China.



Try bombing the guns...

_____________________________

C'est la guerre...

"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 10
RE: Japanese Death Star Artillery - 11/4/2009 7:34:28 PM   
treespider


Posts: 8046
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Knoxville
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Here's the first artillery bombardment at Chengchow - note the number of IJ artillery units and the devastation wrought:

Ground combat at Chengchow (88,44)

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 8676 troops, 335 guns, 442 vehicles, Assault Value = 1765

Defending force 67475 troops, 410 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1430

Japanese ground losses:
     Guns lost 1 (1 destroyed, 0 disabled)
     Vehicles lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
     2399 casualties reported
        Squads: 45 destroyed, 26 disabled
        Non Combat: 58 destroyed, 46 disabled
        Engineers: 6 destroyed, 1 disabled
     Guns lost 4 (1 destroyed, 3 disabled)


Assaulting units:...
   3rd Ind.Mixed Brigade...
   15th Division...
   58th Infantry Brigade...
   52nd Infantry Brigade...
   7th Ind.Mixed Brigade...
   35th Division...
   59th Infantry Brigade...
   62nd Infantry Brigade...
   56th Infantry Brigade...
   32nd Division...
   1st Army...
   7th Medium Field Artillery Regiment...
   5th Medium Field Artillery Regiment...
   1st Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion...
   4th Medium Field Artillery Regiment...
   13th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion...
   4th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion...
   11th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion...
   12th Medium Field Artillery Regiment...
   9th Medium Field Artillery Regiment...
   6th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion...
   22nd Medium Field Artillery Regiment...
   2nd Hvy.Artillery Regiment...
   4th RF Gun Battalion...
   Tonei Hvy Gun Regiment...
   12th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion...
   7th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion...
   20th Medium Field Artillery Regiment...
...
Defending units:...
   27th Chinese Corps...
   40th Chinese Corps...
   85th Chinese Corps...
   93rd Chinese Corps...
   96th Chinese Corps...
   56th Chinese Corps...
   80th Chinese Corps...
   48th Chinese Corps...
   13th Chinese Corps...
   9th Chinese Corps...
   98th Chinese Corps...
   39th Group Army...
   1st War Area ...
   Jingcha War Area ...
   4th Group Army...
   24th Group Army...
   10th Chinese Base Force...



Well think of it this way the guns are in china and not on some far flung Pacific Island you might want to invade...Part of the problem with the manchurian garrison requirements is that it only looks at AV...

_____________________________

C'est la guerre...

"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 11
RE: Japanese Death Star Artillery - 11/4/2009 7:36:52 PM   
Canoerebel

 

Posts: 2476
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
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As noted elsewhere it is nearly impossible to utilize bombers in China - the Chinese bombers have experience in the 40s and supplies are too low to permit use of Allied bombers (or even Chinese bombers if the pilots actually decided to fly).

(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 12
RE: Japanese Death Star Artillery - 11/4/2009 7:48:27 PM   
Rob Brennan UK


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From: London UK
Status: offline
I'll be interested to see how this discussion pans out. No experience either facing or using the massed artillery tactic, but from AAR's it does seem excessive given chinas paltry 200 replacements/month. The "free units back ay 30% AV" only works if the japanese player is kind enough to clobber them. Most good Japenese players would leave these small units to rot and ignore them.

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sorry for the spelling . English is my main language , I just can't type . and i'm too lazy to edit :)

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Post #: 13
RE: Japanese Death Star Artillery - 11/4/2009 8:16:03 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 2056
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Status: offline
Well we did get the Death Star bombardment fleets fixed, so I guess this is what takes its place.

The fleet bombards were better, since they could only get coastal hexes. The Death Star Artillery can go anywhere.

_____________________________

aka- Akula
HC3 Development Group Member

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Post #: 14
RE: Japanese Death Star Artillery - 11/4/2009 8:44:59 PM   
treespider


Posts: 8046
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Knoxville
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

note the number of IJ artillery units

Assaulting units:...
   7th Medium Field Artillery Regiment...
   5th Medium Field Artillery Regiment...
   1st Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion...
   4th Medium Field Artillery Regiment...
   13th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion...
   4th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion...
   11th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion...
   12th Medium Field Artillery Regiment...
   9th Medium Field Artillery Regiment...
   6th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion...
   22nd Medium Field Artillery Regiment...
   2nd Hvy.Artillery Regiment...
   4th RF Gun Battalion...
   Tonei Hvy Gun Regiment...
   12th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion...
   7th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion...
   20th Medium Field Artillery Regiment...


Unless I am mistaken I would say there are very few Independent Artillery units in Manchuria at the moment ...not that that helps you in any way........I think all of these guys started as Kwantung Army Artillery Units.


_____________________________

C'est la guerre...

"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 15
RE: Japanese Death Star Artillery - 11/4/2009 8:54:59 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 1992
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: online
In WITP, artillery didn't do enough damage. Playing Japan, I never bombarded Chinese troops, because all you would do is train them, and not inflict any casualties. Artillery was of very limited value.

In AE, the pendulum has swung.

Maybe the problem isn't the EFFECTIVENESS of massed artillery, because 17 units IRL would also be doing a number on the Chinese. Maybe the problem is that Artillery doesn't consume enough SUPPLIES. If an artillery unit consumed 300 supplies per turn of bombardment, that would put a crimp in those Bombardments. You could still do a turn or two for assaults, but a month's worth would be impossible.

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Artwork graciously provided by Rogueusmc

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Post #: 16
RE: Japanese Death Star Artillery - 11/4/2009 9:05:55 PM   
treespider


Posts: 8046
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Knoxville
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

In WITP, artillery didn't do enough damage. Playing Japan, I never bombarded Chinese troops, because all you would do is train them, and not inflict any casualties. Artillery was of very limited value.

In AE, the pendulum has swung.

Maybe the problem isn't the EFFECTIVENESS of massed artillery, because 17 units IRL would also be doing a number on the Chinese. Maybe the problem is that Artillery doesn't consume enough SUPPLIES. If an artillery unit consumed 300 supplies per turn of bombardment, that would put a crimp in those Bombardments. You could still do a turn or two for assaults, but a month's worth would be impossible.




_____________________________

C'est la guerre...

"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 17
RE: Japanese Death Star Artillery - 11/4/2009 9:10:48 PM   
pad152

 

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Artillery was the leading cause of death to infantry and that is a lot a artillery attacking!



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Post #: 18
RE: Japanese Death Star Artillery - 11/4/2009 9:12:10 PM   
Nikademus


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From: Alien spacecraft
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If you can navigate this trench, {} you can kill the death star..........

_____________________________

"With your taste in music, you might as well listen to a guy who's standing on a street corner screaming while banging two trash cans together."

-Girlfriend on Industrial music.


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Post #: 19
RE: Japanese Death Star Artillery - 11/4/2009 9:39:26 PM   
Canoerebel

 

Posts: 2476
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
If you can navigate this trench, {} you can kill the death star..........




I have no idea what Nikademus is saying.

P.S. Just played two more turns with two more Jap Artillery Death Star bombardments at Chengchow. This time casualties were 1,590 and 2,470. That's 8,000 casualties in four days.

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 20
RE: Japanese Death Star Artillery - 11/4/2009 9:39:50 PM   
Jonathan Pollard


Posts: 268
Joined: 2/25/2007
From: Federal prison
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I tried to find out how many rounds an artillery barrel could fire before it became worn out and needed to be replaced. All I could come up with was info on Allied 90mm AA guns which needed to be replaced after 1,500 to 2,000 rounds. If an artillery piece fires just one round per minute for 24 hours, that's 1,440 rounds right there.

quote:

During the 1944-1945 German bombing campaign against the Allies in the Belgian port of Antwerp, 90mm AAA operated 22 hours a day with two hours a day for maintenance. The life expectancy of the gun tube was 1,500 to 2,000 rounds and many batteries wore out three or four sets of tubes over the course of the campaign. After the third wore out, the gun slide had to be replaced as well. Due to shortages of replacements some barrels were retained until they fired as many as 2,500 rounds but this was a dangerous practice. When the tube became that worn, muzzle velocity grew erratic and, in some cases, the lands in the tube began to peel. For much of the four months of December 1944 to March 1945, nearly every 90mm anti-aircraft gun barrel produced was sent to Antwerp, while units in the Pacific and Mediterranean had to wait. In February ammunition ran low despite emergency deliveries by air.


http://www.olive-drab.com/idphoto/id_photos_90mm_aaa.php

_____________________________

"We could blow up a US ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame Cuba." "We could develop a Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area...and even Washington." - US Joint Chiefs of Staff, 1962
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 21
RE: Japanese Death Star Artillery - 11/4/2009 9:51:04 PM   
khyberbill


Posts: 710
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From: new milford, ct
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quote:


P.S. Just played two more turns with two more Jap Artillery Death Star bombardments at Chengchow. This time casualties were 1,590 and 2,470. That's 8,000 casualties in four days.


I bitterly complained about this right after the game came out. In fact, I was losing 10000 casualties each day!!! The designers said,... working as designed. So, they are aware of it and seem to accept that if the Japanese move the artillery out of Manchuria, so be it. Even three units can wreak havoc over a period of a few weeks so probably the only way to "fix" it is with supply or HR. And I hate HRs. A good game should not require HR.

_____________________________

"There will be no withdrawal without written orders and these orders shall never be issued" Field Marshall Sam Manekshaw

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 22
RE: Japanese Death Star Artillery - 11/4/2009 10:04:18 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9110
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
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quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

In WITP, artillery didn't do enough damage. Playing Japan, I never bombarded Chinese troops, because all you would do is train them, and not inflict any casualties. Artillery was of very limited value.

In AE, the pendulum has swung.

Maybe the problem isn't the EFFECTIVENESS of massed artillery, because 17 units IRL would also be doing a number on the Chinese. Maybe the problem is that Artillery doesn't consume enough SUPPLIES. If an artillery unit consumed 300 supplies per turn of bombardment, that would put a crimp in those Bombardments. You could still do a turn or two for assaults, but a month's worth would be impossible.


ME TOO!


Supply and restriction are the only "quick fix" methods that seem available to repair this mess..., and both are historically accurate! Pray to the "Gods of War" (AE Land Team division).

(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 23
RE: Japanese Death Star Artillery - 11/4/2009 10:04:57 PM   
pad152

 

Posts: 2590
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jonathan Pollard

I tried to find out how many rounds an artillery barrel could fire before it became worn out and needed to be replaced. All I could come up with was info on Allied 90mm AA guns which needed to be replaced after 1,500 to 2,000 rounds. If an artillery piece fires just one round per minute for 24 hours, that's 1,440 rounds right there.

quote:

During the 1944-1945 German bombing campaign against the Allies in the Belgian port of Antwerp, 90mm AAA operated 22 hours a day with two hours a day for maintenance. The life expectancy of the gun tube was 1,500 to 2,000 rounds and many batteries wore out three or four sets of tubes over the course of the campaign. After the third wore out, the gun slide had to be replaced as well. Due to shortages of replacements some barrels were retained until they fired as many as 2,500 rounds but this was a dangerous practice. When the tube became that worn, muzzle velocity grew erratic and, in some cases, the lands in the tube began to peel. For much of the four months of December 1944 to March 1945, nearly every 90mm anti-aircraft gun barrel produced was sent to Antwerp, while units in the Pacific and Mediterranean had to wait. In February ammunition ran low despite emergency deliveries by air.


http://www.olive-drab.com/idphoto/id_photos_90mm_aaa.php


Just like every piece of military hardware, there is the recommended replaced date/usage and has to be replaced. All the recommended usage/replacement goes out the window during a war.


(in reply to Jonathan Pollard)
Post #: 24
RE: Japanese Death Star Artillery - 11/4/2009 10:08:19 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9110
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From: Kansas City, MO
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152

Just like every piece of military hardware, there is the recommended replaced date/usage and has to be replaced. All the recommended usage/replacement goes out the window during a war.


Not in this case..., once the barrel liners are shot it's basically a smooth-bore. Good luck hitting anything with one of those, or even keeping your shell "spin stablized" with no spin!

(in reply to pad152)
Post #: 25
RE: Japanese Death Star Artillery - 11/4/2009 10:35:30 PM   
Feltan


Posts: 406
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From: Kansas
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The issue isn't the effectiveness of the artillery, nor even guns wearing out (which they would) -- rather, it is an issue of doctrine and logistics in general.

The Japanese military historically was not trained for mass fires. Like most countries (other than the U.S. and U.K.), the Japanese did not have the concept of a Fire Direction Center (FDC) that could concentrate the fires of multiple units on a single target. Each unit had a Forward Observer that used a common point of reference to direct fire (i.e., I see the church steeple, you see the church steeple, aim at 320 degrees 3 KM from said point). A single artillery unit normally supported a single ground maneuver unit. This is primarily the method used by the Japanese, Germans, Russians and most other countries during this period. A corallary to this was a planned fire scheme that was based on pre-sited coordinates. The aforementioned doctrine is effective and simple, it doesn't require detailed maps, it doesn't require radio communication (normally used land line) but precludes the effective quick massing of fire. Hence, the effect of multiple regiments of artillery in a Japanese attack would not be equal to the sum of the parts -- each added unit would only add a fraction of its strength to the attack. Perhaps a simple way to model this would be to restrict the number of artillery units to the number of land units, with no more than a regiment of artillery per infantry division in support.

The logistics is a bit more straight forward. Units normally did not stockpile enough ammo for multi-day bombardments. However -- they could and sometimes did. I agree witht he postings that state a heftier supply consumption is in order. It is. I don't have a handy reference to state what a normal Japanese basic load consisted of -- but I would venture to guess it was no more than several dozen rounds per tube. Enough for sustain fire for a few hours at most. More could be brought in, but we are talking a more substantial logistic effort than is portrayed in the game. For a dozen artillery regiments, we are talking a significant tonnage of shells for a multi-day sustained bombardment. The game currently doesn't do a good job of modelling this.

Lastly, one could safely assume within the context of the game -- if mulitple tons of supply were being shipped in to support a bombardment, that some small percentage of that tonnage would be replacement tubes for the guns. Such an item is major end item replacement, and is generally part of the supply chain. So, I don't see a special problem with that issue once the logistics is made more realistic.

Regards,
Feltan

_____________________________

Founder of the "Bring back the 'For Jimmy' babe, and dump the fat chick on the rail" club.

Being a JFB means you never are short of PBEM opponents.

(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 26
RE: Japanese Death Star Artillery - 11/4/2009 10:55:08 PM   
Marty A

 

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Soviet artillery may not have had fire direct center but many more than 1 battery support a unit.

"One of the serious problems in planning the fight against American doctrine, is that the Americans do not read their manuals, nor do they feel any obligation to follow their doctrine."*
*
_From a Soviet Junior Lt's Notebook

(in reply to Feltan)
Post #: 27
RE: Japanese Death Star Artillery - 11/5/2009 1:27:03 AM   
Cribtop

 

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Just make sure that if you increase supply requirements for bombardment attacks that this doesn't unintentionally skyrocket the supply costs of deliberate or shock attacks. Other than that a reasonable idea IMHO.

(in reply to Marty A)
Post #: 28
RE: Japanese Death Star Artillery - 11/5/2009 1:27:58 AM   
Feltan


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From: Kansas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marty A

Soviet artillery may not have had fire direct center but many more than 1 battery support a unit.

"One of the serious problems in planning the fight against American doctrine, is that the Americans do not read their manuals, nor do they feel any obligation to follow their doctrine."*
*
_From a Soviet Junior Lt's Notebook



Indeed. However, those massive preplanned barrages were not an FDC directed barrage. Soviet artillery was notoriously unresponsive to unplanned calls for fire.

To be clear, I am not suggesting one battery -- rather one additional artillery regiment per division.

Regards,
Feltan

_____________________________

Founder of the "Bring back the 'For Jimmy' babe, and dump the fat chick on the rail" club.

Being a JFB means you never are short of PBEM opponents.

(in reply to Marty A)
Post #: 29
RE: Japanese Death Star Artillery - 11/5/2009 3:11:00 AM   
RevRick


Posts: 2088
Joined: 9/16/2000
From: Sand Gnat Nursery, GA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: khyberbill

quote:


The designers said,... working as designed.


I'm sure the designers of the Edsel, the Yugo, the British Comet, and the Tacoma Narrows Bridge said the same thing.

OTOH, one thing I have still not been happy with in this current iteration of the game is being forced to do something in China. I Hate Playing in China with the abstracted Land Combat rules, but with hexes the size of Palm Beach County, what can you do. Bring Back the TURN THE BLOODY THING OFF IN CHINA button.

_____________________________

"No, you can't always get what you want
You can't always get what you want
You can't always get what you want
And if you try sometime you find
You get what you need."


(in reply to khyberbill)
Post #: 30
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