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Looking for operational level strategy game (WWII)

 
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Looking for operational level strategy game (WWII) - 10/18/2009 4:52:19 PM   
Brausepaul


Posts: 432
Joined: 8/11/2004
From: Braunschweig, Deutschland
Status: offline 		Hi,

I'm looking for a good operational level strategy game. So far I was looking at Advanced Tactics and Operational Art of War with both being too "generic". I guess my dream game will be WitE but until then I need something else to put my hands on. A good AI is a must. Any ideas?
Post #: 1
RE: Looking for operational level strategy game (WWII) - 10/18/2009 4:55:07 PM   
Alan Sharif

 

Posts: 360
Joined: 8/1/2001
From: UK.
Status: offline 		My suggestion would be to try the demo of WW2:Time Of Wrath. I did so and as a result have just purchased the game. It will be just what you are looking for IMO.

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RE: Looking for operational level strategy game (WWII) - 10/18/2009 5:20:56 PM   
Brausepaul


Posts: 432
Joined: 8/11/2004
From: Braunschweig, Deutschland
Status: offline 		Hi,

thanks for your answer. I did take a look at Time of Wrath a few days ago and I had mixed feelings, I guess I should take a closer look. Is it possible to stack units at all?

Gotta admit that somehow my wish list is contradictory: I want the game to have enough "depth" but not too much micromanagement. So I want to see the components of a corps or an army, but I don't want to select each component's leader. Research is not a must, it would be okay if one gets certain new technologies / units at a historic date.

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RE: Looking for operational level strategy game (WWII) - 10/18/2009 6:31:12 PM   
V22 Osprey


Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/8/2008
From: Corona, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Brausepaul

Hi,

I'm looking for a good operational level strategy game. So far I was looking at Advanced Tactics and Operational Art of War with both being too "generic". I guess my dream game will be WitE but until then I need something else to put my hands on. A good AI is a must. Any ideas?


I can understand Advanced Tactics, but TOAW III?I mean, you can only put so many details in an operational level wargame.Each formation is made up of specific units, unlike Advanced Tactics where everything is very generic(Medium tank, Light Tank, etc).I think what you really want is game that focuses on one very detailed battle/campaign rather than less detailed(but still great) battles and campaigns all in one game.Other than that, I'm not seeing what is in WW2:Time of Wrath or WitE that isn't in TOAW(Not saying they are bad games, though)

My point is, I don't see how TOAW is anymore Generic than all the other operational wargames.

< Message edited by V22 Osprey -- 10/18/2009 6:38:38 PM >

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RE: Looking for operational level strategy game (WWII) - 10/18/2009 6:53:01 PM   
Lützow


Posts: 1416
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Brausepaul

Gotta admit that somehow my wish list is contradictory: I want the game to have enough "depth" but not too much micromanagement. So I want to see the components of a corps or an army, but I don't want to select each component's leader. Research is not a must, it would be okay if one gets certain new technologies / units at a historic date.


If you don't own TOAW yet, it's worth a purchase. Not neccessary to play the mega scenarios here, as it offers plenty of smaller stuff as well. You could also consider WitP:AE for the small scenarios, which combine a maximum of freedom in gameplay with limited micro management.

In addition I'd recommend WbtS, Decisive Battle Series, CotA and EDBTR, depending on your prefered theatre.

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Post #: 5
RE: Looking for operational level strategy game (WWII) - 10/18/2009 7:14:32 PM   
SLAAKMAN


Posts: 2199
Joined: 7/24/2002
Status: offline 		Guten Tag Herr Brausepaul! I am here to bring you the new Gospel of WWII Glory.....(drumroll).... WORLD IN FLAMES!!! Nothing even comes close to it and it meets your request for a Corps/army level campaign. Its fully functional on Vassalengine.org now and offers a great global campaign scenario from 1939-45 integrating armies, air forces and navies with superb game mechanics. Join us!!

http://www.maddogdrivethru.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=835



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RE: Looking for operational level strategy game (WWII) - 10/18/2009 7:51:53 PM   
Hertston


Posts: 3310
Joined: 8/17/2002
From: Cornwall, UK
Status: offline 		At operational level there are five real choices IMHO.

TOAW 3 is not 'generic' in the sense you mean, just flexible. But at a decent price, lots of PBEM opponents and more scenarios than you'll ever need it is a must IMHO. Some scenarios are better than others, but it's easy enough to find which they are without playing through all the others.

Advanced Tactics isn't so much generic as abstract. It's a great game, but you need to take it on its own terms.

The 'Decisive Battles' series is a solid system, obviously more focussed on particular campaigns. Battles in Normandy is a classic IMHO, although I haven't bought the subsequent two.

The Airborne Assault games are tactical/operational level and easily the most 'realistic' of the bunch, and the best of them IMHO. As pausible continuous time games, though, they play very differently from the others and may or may not be your cup of tea.

And lastly the HPS Panzer Campaigns and Modern Battles systems. I think these are the easiest to play and pick up, while remaining reasonably realistic and with a good 'feel' for the campaign involved. Lot's of scenarios, but probably the weakest AI.


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RE: Looking for operational level strategy game (WWII) - 10/18/2009 8:10:00 PM   
bairdlander

 

Posts: 1376
Joined: 3/28/2009
Status: offline 		Wait for WitE.Time of Wrath sucks ass,its a poor version of HOI2.

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RE: Looking for operational level strategy game (WWII) - 10/18/2009 9:35:03 PM   
V22 Osprey


Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/8/2008
From: Corona, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bairdlander

Wait for WitE.Time of Wrath sucks ass,its a poor version of HOI2.


Huh? This not a fair comparison at all.Time of Wrath and HOI2 are two completely different games.

Although I'm not too fond of Time of Wrath, I definitely wouldn't call it a poor version of HOI2.

Did you actually play the game or are you basing this off screenshots?


< Message edited by V22 Osprey -- 10/18/2009 9:37:21 PM >

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RE: Looking for operational level strategy game (WWII) - 10/18/2009 9:43:20 PM   
Hertston


Posts: 3310
Joined: 8/17/2002
From: Cornwall, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey

Huh? This not a fair comparison at all.Time of Wrath and HOI2 are two completely different games.



Not to mention that neither are operational level games! ToW is the better game in my humble opinion, at least it makes some attempt to actually resemble WW2.

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Post #: 10
RE: Looking for operational level strategy game (WWII) - 10/18/2009 10:20:45 PM   
Deathtreader


Posts: 656
Joined: 4/22/2003
From: Vancouver, Canada.
Status: offline 		Hi,

I'd recommend Panther's Airborne Assault series (Highway to the Reich followed by Conquest of the Aegean) as handsdown winners for the realism and challenging AI requirements you mentioned. They are, however, more grand tactical than operational in scale with most of the individual maneuver units being around company size.
For maneuver units at battalion size (or regimental) I'd go with SSG's latest Kharkov game. Also very good with a decent AI. The only downside is a paucity of scenarios -- although SSG hints that this might change.

IMO, the 2 games above are the best of the crop.

And if you're into sci fi/fantasy try pre-ordering Combined Arms -- a WWII game that looks terrific but that Matrix has had under development for longer than the actual war itself (or at least that's how it feels).
No offense Ludovic.... I doubt the delay is your doing.

Rob.


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RE: Looking for operational level strategy game (WWII) - 10/18/2009 11:33:46 PM   
06 Maestro


Posts: 3981
Joined: 10/12/2005
From: Nevada, USA
Status: offline 		I will have to second the AA series (new name coming soon I think). As mentioned above, the realism is far more advanced than any other game. Also, it is continuous time (pause-able)-which eliminates some oddities of IGOUGO operational level gaming.

It really depends on what level of control you want to have-and how important battlefield control is in your playing style. CotA, for instance, uses company's and various HQ's to simulate your forces on a battlefield. Battles up to corps size are reproduced on real maps. Some games like the campaign series also has some corps level battles, but at a Plt base unit-now that is hard core. TOAW has great flexibility in scale, both of maps and units, but is an IGOUGO system.

There are many choices between good games here. It really depends on your particular preferences. I would still strongly suggest CotA though due to its advanced engine. It has a real AI (I think I know how it works now, but it is difficult o beat), real maps with built in terrain data, thinking HQ's, order delays dependent on commanders and condition of units and very well done scenarios. No matter how many other games I buy and play I keep coming back to CotA-IMO it is simply the best operational game on the market.

If you want to control a whole campaign in one scenario, such as Barbarossa, then the AA engine is not for you. However, Sometimes realistic control is far more worthy than the scope of an operation.



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RE: Looking for operational level strategy game (WWII) - 10/19/2009 9:03:47 AM   
killroyishere

 

Posts: 639
Joined: 4/23/2008
Status: offline 		I'd recommend "Making History:The Calm & the Storm" as it's a turn based replication of HOI or HOI II. Plus a newer version is due out 02/2010 and looks to improve on gameplay and unit graphics. For a non-mainstream operational wargame it got pretty good scores considering the children that review nowadays don't give good scores to niche wargames:

http://www.gamerankings.com/pc/935724-making-history-the-calm-and-the-storm/index.html Normally if you see a standard turn based wargame in the 60's or 70's it's a pretty good game for standard old wargamers or SOW's.

< Message edited by killroyishere -- 10/19/2009 9:04:03 AM >

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Post #: 13
RE: Looking for operational level strategy game (WWII) - 10/19/2009 10:24:38 AM   
Arsan

 

Posts: 400
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline 		I see some people still have difficulties to tell apart operational from strategical games...
My recommendation is also for the Panther games series (HHTR, COTA, or the soon to come BFTB). The most awesome wargame engine ever! 
On a bigger scale, TOAW3 is excellent, as are SSG games.
Cheers


< Message edited by Arsan -- 10/19/2009 10:25:41 AM >

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Post #: 14
RE: Looking for operational level strategy game (WWII) - 10/19/2009 11:25:00 AM   
Greybriar


Posts: 527
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Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arsan

....My recommendation is also for the Panther games series (HHTR, COTA, or the soon to come BFTB)....



Okay, COTA = Conquest of the Aegean and BFTB = Battles from the Bulge, but what is HHTR? A typo for HTTR? (Highway to the Reich)

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RE: Looking for operational level strategy game (WWII) - 10/19/2009 10:24:10 PM   
Joe 98


Posts: 3966
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Brausepaul

So far I was looking at Advanced Tactics and Operational Art of War with both being too "generic".




Kharkov:Disaster on the Donets.

Turn based hex based game.

The units are not generic. Rather, armour, infantry and other types are represented.

You need to use the different types of units in their historic roles else you will lose!

http://www.matrixgames.com/products/358/details/Kharkov:.Disaster.on.the.Donets

-












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Post #: 16
RE: Looking for operational level strategy game (WWII) - 10/20/2009 12:39:08 AM   
Llyranor


Posts: 206
Joined: 4/29/2006
From: Montreal, Canada
Status: offline 		Airborne Assault is my absolute favorite operational-level wargame series. The one that makes me feel most like a WW2 commander making commander-type decisions.

I'm a huge fan of turn-based, and will usually prefer TB to RT, but in this single instance, I think Panther Games managed to really one-up the competition. The TB systems seem very abstract in comparison.

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Post #: 17
RE: Looking for operational level strategy game (WWII) - 10/20/2009 1:05:20 AM   
bairdlander

 

Posts: 1376
Joined: 3/28/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: killroyishere

I'd recommend "Making History:The Calm & the Storm"

Looks good,Im downloading demo now.Is there an option for counters or sprites only?

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Post #: 18
RE: Looking for operational level strategy game (WWII) - 10/20/2009 9:29:51 AM   
killroyishere

 

Posts: 639
Joined: 4/23/2008
Status: offline 		You know bairdlander it's been awhile since I played it and I just don't recall if it has an option for counters or not. I always played with the minatures as I prefer them more for the eyes. I do remember I played as Argentina and had a wonderful time. Just be aware above normal difficulty the game lives up to its higher difficulty levels as it gets a bunch of handicaps in resources. After my initial game I did play on the level just above normal from that point on it's not too bad of an advantage but you'll be able to clearly see there is one. One of the greatest things about it is it won't always follow the WW2 historical pattern. Russia might join the axis instead or America (unless you are playing it or even if you do) might not join the war at all. This gives lots of replayability without repetitiveness in strategies. I'm pretty picky about my wargames these days but this one when I have an urge to play operational WW2 is my choice over them all.

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Post #: 19
RE: Looking for operational level strategy game (WWII) - 10/20/2009 2:25:51 PM   
06 Maestro


Posts: 3981
Joined: 10/12/2005
From: Nevada, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: killroyishere

This gives lots of replayability without repetitiveness in strategies. I'm pretty picky about my wargames these days but this one when I have an urge to play operational WW2 is my choice over them all.


When you are running a country's economy, research, infrastructure improvements, trade, diplomacy and military production, that is considered a strategic level game. Also, when you add the Risk like provinces and units display, this game is anything but operational.

Sure I'm biased against that unspeakable game-I bought it and felt ripped off. Perhaps the newer iteration has fixed some of the outlandish behavior. But biased or not, it is certainly not an operation level simulation.

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RE: Looking for operational level strategy game (WWII) - 10/20/2009 3:15:14 PM   
killroyishere

 

Posts: 639
Joined: 4/23/2008
Status: offline 		"A wargame is a game that represents a military operation."

The above statement taken from the Wiki definition of wargames is why I stated it as operational. Fact is they all can be operational in a sense. Thus it is subjective.

Of course the specific definition of operational play is by some common standards "
quote:

Operational — common units are battalion to divisional size, carrying a value based on their overall strengths and weaknesses. Weather and logistics are significant factors, although a single army is the largest player-controlled element in most cases. Other branches of military force are more or less abstracted, having a mere campaign generally span the session of play.

"
Notice it says "in most cases" not all cases thus leaving openings for other forms. I like the way the definer leaves it open and not strict fact as perception is subjective an opinionated as well. I'm just one who believes and plays that one can play an operational game within a grand strategic game. Perhaps you cannot or don't see it. I do. It's sort of like the Total War game is grand stratetic with elements of operational and tactical included. Doesn't mean it's totally a grand strategic game by any means. You could see all the little marching units as armies, why can't they be seen as divisions? Perception an imagination is the key factor here.

Now if I'm not mistaken MH uses divisional level of units? Weather and logistics is a significant factor? Therefore it does have elements of operational as well as grand strategic.

Beside at this point he the OP seems to be interested in MH and thus makes all other things moot. So, why be so nitpicky are you hoping for a reward? Ok then here's a cookie.

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Post #: 21
RE: Looking for operational level strategy game (WWII) - 10/21/2009 4:19:42 AM   
06 Maestro


Posts: 3981
Joined: 10/12/2005
From: Nevada, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: killroyishere
Now if I'm not mistaken MH uses divisional level of units? Weather and logistics is a significant factor? Therefore it does have elements of operational as well as grand strategic.


You can put little toy tanks on checker pieces and burp over the board and call it operational warfare for all I care-now. I would have been willing to have a polite discussion about some differences of opinion on the matter, but you changed that. I suspected that it would happen, but thought I would give you the chance.


quote:

ORIGINAL:
Beside at this point he the OP seems to be interested in MH and thus makes all other things moot. So, why be so nitpicky are you hoping for a reward? Ok then here's a cookie.


You must be good at reading between the lines-I did not see anything from the OP as to what game he chose-perhaps he PM'd you with that info. I suppose it is possible; it just seems unlikely that he did.

As for the cookies, I'll pass on yours. I like cookies made of flour, sugar and chocolate. I don't know what you put in your cookies, but perhaps you should talk to your cook about it. Just because something is organic does not mean its good for you.

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RE: Looking for operational level strategy game (WWII) - 10/21/2009 4:48:55 AM   
V22 Osprey


Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/8/2008
From: Corona, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro


quote:

ORIGINAL: killroyishere
Beside at this point he the OP seems to be interested in MH and thus makes all other things moot. So, why be so nitpicky are you hoping for a reward? Ok then here's a cookie.


As for the cookies, I'll pass on yours. I like cookies made of flour, sugar and chocolate. I don't know what you put in your cookies, but perhaps you should talk to your cook about it. Just because something is organic does not mean its good for you.




This was hilarious.

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RE: Looking for operational level strategy game (WWII) - 10/21/2009 4:56:41 AM   
06 Maestro


Posts: 3981
Joined: 10/12/2005
From: Nevada, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey
This was hilarious.


I am here for you, V22.

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Post #: 24
RE: Looking for operational level strategy game (WWII) - 10/21/2009 6:09:48 PM   
Ron

 

Posts: 456
Joined: 6/6/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: killroyishere
Snip...



The operational level of war occupies roughly the middle ground between the campaign's strategic focus and the tactics of an engagement; describing "a distinct intermediate level of war between military strategy, governing war in general, and tactics, involving individual battles." David Glantz - Soviet Military Operational Art: In Pursuit of Deep Battle

You know, we are able to communicate because we use words with defined meanings for all to learn and understand. As 06Maestro says, you can make up and call it whatever you like, just don't expect everyone else to agree to your definition.


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Post #: 25
RE: Looking for operational level strategy game (WWII) - 10/22/2009 2:55:23 AM   
price41

 

Posts: 1
Joined: 10/21/2009
Status: offline 		Will Kharkov run on vista-64? Any one know of other games that will.

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Post #: 26
RE: Looking for operational level strategy game (WWII) - 10/22/2009 3:59:57 AM   
sabre1


Posts: 1928
Joined: 8/15/2001
From: CA
Status: offline 		Kharkov runs fine on Vista 64 on my system, FWIW.

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Post #: 27
RE: Looking for operational level strategy game (WWII) - 10/24/2009 5:31:59 AM   
GoodGuy

 

Posts: 1469
Joined: 5/17/2006
From: Cologne, Germany
Status: offline 		I'd recommend to wait for (CommandOps) Battle of the Bulge by Panther Games. In my books, this game is powered by the best engine (formerly known as "AlliedAssault" or just short "AA") on the market, if it comes to (realistically) depict operational warfare.

In the other installments (HTTR, COTA), depending on the theater and scenario, this series covered operations which involved several regiments up to several divisions, the upper limit used to be 2 Armies on each side, I'd say.
The AI is excellent, and its moves/deployments may turn out totally different even after loading a savegame, as the AI readjusts/checks allocation of units and plans continously.

quote:

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro

When you are running a country's economy, research, infrastructure improvements, trade, diplomacy and military production, that is considered a strategic level game. Also, when you add the Risk like provinces and units display, this game is anything but operational.


Correct.

quote:

You can put little toy tanks on checker pieces and burp over the board and call it operational warfare for all I care-now.

LoL. I loved that one, Maestro.

< Message edited by GoodGuy -- 10/24/2009 5:36:14 AM >

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Post #: 28
RE: Looking for operational level strategy game (WWII) - 10/24/2009 9:43:49 AM   
Hertston


Posts: 3310
Joined: 8/17/2002
From: Cornwall, UK
Status: offline 		BftB will certainly be a must-buy, but I wouldn't just 'wait' for it unless shortage of funds seriously dictates. If you are likely to like BftB you will like CotA now. And, IMHO, TOAW3 is an absolutely essential purchase for any wargamer; there's just so much in there. Several of the best large scenarios would be easily worth the money alone, as is Boonierat's Vietnam stuff.

< Message edited by Hertston -- 10/24/2009 9:44:50 AM >

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Post #: 29
RE: Looking for operational level strategy game (WWII) - 10/24/2009 10:45:15 AM   
killroyishere

 

Posts: 639
Joined: 4/23/2008
Status: offline
quote:

quote:

You can put little toy tanks on checker pieces and burp over the board and call it operational warfare for all I care-now.


And so they did. http://xbox360.ign.com/dor/objects/26052/panzer-general-allied-assault/images/panzer-general-allied-assault-20091021103952912.html


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Post #: 30
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