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Shreaks have too long a range.

 
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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Close Combat Series >> Close Combat: The Longest Day >> Tech Support >> Shreaks have too long a range. Page: [1]
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Shreaks have too long a range. - 10/17/2009 7:26:55 AM   
STIENER

 

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just been playing TLD and have noticed that the shreaks have way too long a range and are accurate at those long ranges. i had a shreak willing to shoot at a sherman and was 220 meters away....i had a green circle and managed to kill the sherman on my second shot.
i also did the same at 170 m...different sherman.

i believe the shreak is only accurate up to 130 Meters??? i cant remember exactly but its not over 150 m im sure. the shreak should not fire if its out of range.
any plans to change this??
Post #: 1
RE: Shreaks have too long a range. - 10/17/2009 4:56:59 PM   
Senior Drill


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quote:

ORIGINAL: STIENER

..... i believe the shreak is only accurate up to 130 Meters??? i cant remember exactly but its not over 150 m im sure. the shreak should not fire if its out of range.
any plans to change this??


Change it to what? Words like "i believe" and "i can't remember exactly" have preciesly Zero authority. Try doing a little research first to support your assertion.

Fortunately, Hofbauer's Panzerfaust Page is still up. It would be a place to start.

_____________________________

C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas la guerre.

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RE: Shreaks have too long a range. - 10/17/2009 11:02:56 PM   
STIENER

 

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senior drill...sir
quotes from Houfbauers web...

The Panzerschrecks were initially less successful than Panzerfausts because Panzerschreck gunners - trusting in the impressive size of the Panzerschreck - tended to open fire at larger ranges of around 100m (330 ft.), which was also necessified by the relative cumbersomeness of the large Panzerschreck which was a hindrance when retreating into cover after the shot.

There is still some controversy around the range of this weapon. Sources give figures for anything from 150m to 1,000m as range: The Panzerschreck's technical data call for a theoretical engagement range of 700m (!), practical engagement ranges are usually cited with 400m for static targets and 100 to 230m for moving targets. Then again, an army report on the fighting around Posen dated March 1st 1945 emphasizes the effectiveness of the Panzerschreck and states that static targets such as AT gun and infantry emplacements had been successfully attacked at ranges up to 1000m (!). Engagement procedures called for the Panzerschreck teams to open fire against attacking (oncoming) tanks at 180-150m. Laterally moving tanks were to be attacked at a range of 120m. These later figures of course take into account the fact that fire should only be opened (and hence the chance of detection and counter fire) when a high chance of hit probability is given.

so.....im right and im wrong. in GJS we decided to go with a Maxium range of 150M. the shreak would not shoot past that range. it would appear from above quotes that beyond 180M the gunners could not really hope to hit the broad side of a barn/tank unless extremely lucky.
i would be happier to see a max range of 180M for TLD. but as is, i have been [ play testing some more ] on both ends of the shreaks accurancy.......1 shot 1 kill at 220 M and 6 shots 1 kill at 150M, 170M, and 130M. i dont know what or if the shreak has a max range in this game??
so.......


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RE: Shreaks have too long a range. - 10/17/2009 11:13:37 PM   
Andrew Williams


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I think that given the relatively small size of the CC maps (though some are significantly larger than GJS) a slightly reduced range could be considered for gameplay sake.

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RE: Shreaks have too long a range. - 10/18/2009 12:34:22 AM   
panzerlehr62


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Interesting to say the least.

Nice link Drill. As of last count in 2002 it had over 480,000 hits and I can see why.

Just a screen shot of a test. I took as many screen snaps as I could as this was happening, so hopefully this adds somethg...lol..

2 SS Schrecks and 3 Allied tanks. First firing, by veteran team at 244m takes 2 shots to find the mark.

Second Schreck team (average) with two targets at around 236m finds the mark on the first shot against both targets.

I ran a test before this one, with just one Schreck at 240m, took 2 shots before the kill, so it seems fairly accurate to say a SS team is pretty dam good at ranges around 240m, with command team and not under fire. I will definitly keep that in mind when I run into them, hopefully before I hear bailing out!.

Gz..


PS... Feurer Krieg You are NOT allowed to view this page. If by chance you fail to see this notice in time, you must immediately have your wife hit you over the head with her heaviest POT!. If that fails to erase your memory, she must repeat until it does! ~~note to wife: when he comes too remind him we are playing monday nite, thanks..~~








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< Message edited by panzerlehr62 -- 10/18/2009 2:40:19 AM >

(in reply to Andrew Williams)
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RE: Shreaks have too long a range. - 10/18/2009 1:38:48 AM   
Senior Drill


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Ok, now we are getting somewhere where we can have an informed discussion. For those of you who do not know, M. Hofbauer is an old CC stalwart and an academic type; his research is well researched and his opinions are solidly based in facts. He has rarely, if ever, been proven proven wrong in his 13 year participation in CC forums. That said, let's look at the Panzerschreck data from the original CC TLD workbook that contains the data used in the game. (The Panzerscheck data has not been modified in the beta patches.) The picture is a stripped down version of the Panzerschreck line of data from the Weapons.txt file.


Column B: The Primary Target of 1 = Vehicle is good. This is the weapon's primary purpose.

Column C: The Valid Target of 2 = Vehicle is debateable. It limits the Panzerscreck to vehicles or AT guns and does not allow it to be used as a bunker buster or against pesky MG nest in a building. This is also the setting for the US Bazooka. I would debate that this should be set to 7= All to allow a player to order a Panzerscheck to target anything. The drawback with this suggestion is that an AT team will fire on infantry for low gain kills and run out of ammo before the tanks are exposed, unless the team is kept on Ambush most of the time and only order to Fire or Defend at the opportune time.

Column D: Blast Radius of HEAT = 4 meters. This shows that an exploding warhead can cause significant injury out to 4 meters of the point of impact.

Column E: Minimum Range of 8 meters. There is no arming distance delay for a Panzerschrek warhead, but coupled with the Blast Radius, an AT Team could expect some injury or death in firing closer than this based on the game's random probability rolls. Closer means your AT team dies as well, so this number should probably be left alone or even increase to 10 meters.

Column F: Fire Direction of 0 = Direct fire. This is in keeping with Hofbauer's research. It's effectiveness is in direct LOS. Plunging fire, like a mortar, would simply waste the few rounds available.

Column G: Base Accuracy of 372 = 85% on the Chance512 table before modifiers. This is a one size-fits-all column before the effects of range to target, team experience, morale, available leadership and effects of suppression are applied. It is high, but could be justified by the sighting features available in Jun '44.

Columns H, I, J and K: There are random numbers generated on each and every round fired in the CC games and these columns dictate the range to target that one set of modifiers are replaced with the next set of modifiers. The maximum range of the Panzerschreck is listed in the data as 250 meters. It will not fire at a target that is 251 meters away, but your AT team may try to move to close that distance, thereby exposing themselves. The greater the range to target, the less likely a hit may be. Those random numbers also are why a team can be just 30 meters from the target and miss, get only a crew damage, get an immobilization, get a vehicle kill or get a critical, catastrophic vehicle and crew killing hit. Chance. Die rolls. Randomness.

Column L: Kill Rating PB HEAT = 160. The penetration of 160mm RHA armor for a rocket propelled warhead is going to be the same for Point Blank, Close, Medium and Long, so only this column is shown. If you can reach out and touch it, the effect of a shaped charge is the same whether the range is 50 meters or 500 meters. Kenetic energy rounds lose penetration potential over distance of travel.

Ok, 250 meters max range. Could be well within our so far identified single source's cited range, though it is a bit ambiguous about it. Schrecken does bring up a good point about adjusting for game play. With everything else the games does to each and every round, what would be a good accuracy and max range figure that may belie reality but gives a good battle?

As is, I've had to back off my tanks and use more cover while pressing infantry farther forward as a style of play to keep those Panzersheck teams from brewing up my few Shermans that I will need in later battles. The cost to me is a slower advance, higher casualites and more fire on suspected AT positions. Long gone are the CC5 days of the ubermann Stuarts. With those damnable Panzerschreks, some days I eat the bear, some days it eats me.

Suggestions?




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< Message edited by Senior Drill -- 10/18/2009 1:52:22 AM >


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RE: Shreaks have too long a range. - 10/18/2009 2:49:30 AM   
squadleader_id


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That Range Long Heat of 250 could be a data typo.
It's 180 in unmodded CC5, 150 in CCWAR.



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RE: Shreaks have too long a range. - 10/18/2009 3:52:31 AM   
STIENER

 

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senior drill
im going with my earlier post and still say that 180 M should be max range. the rest of the stuff looks good to me. as far as accuracy, like i said above...ive been on both sides of that.....sometimes they hit 1st round but sometimes it takes 4 or 5 to score a kill. range is definatley a factor for sure and the experience of the troops firing it. SS should be better with the shreak than Ost. thanks for posting all that. very interesting indeed.

RD Steiner

< Message edited by STIENER -- 10/18/2009 3:58:08 AM >

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RE: Shreaks have too long a range. - 10/18/2009 3:46:14 PM   
kojusoki1

 

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I think gameplay is essential.
At CC map, range of 180m seems fairly ok. At such great range like we have right now, seems shrecks are better then AT guns which can be knocked out by a single mortar easly, which cannot be placed in high building what makes shots more accurate/effective and which (at guns) are less effective as they often immob tanks only...

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RE: Shreaks have too long a range. - 10/18/2009 4:27:53 PM   
Senior Drill


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Between the two figures, 180m from CC5 and 150m from WaR, which should be lobbied for to be a change in a patch? Personally, I vote for 180m.

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C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas la guerre.

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RE: Shreaks have too long a range. - 10/18/2009 6:37:00 PM   
squadleader_id


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I vote for the shorter range...considering the small/medium size of most CC maps.
Also Schrecks in CC already receive a built-in advantage in being able to fire from inside buildings.
Maybe if the Panzerschreck data is modded so that they can't be fired from inside buildings (like in VetBoB)...a more real world based 180m range would be a good offset.


< Message edited by squadleader_id -- 10/18/2009 6:38:24 PM >

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RE: Shreaks have too long a range. - 10/18/2009 8:01:51 PM   
Tejszd

 

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Good discussion.

250 is too high since the shrecks in TLD are configured to be used against vehicles only (which is my preference as they will just use them on infantry if allowed and then you are screwed when a tank finally shows up)....Either 150 or 180 would be fine but if I had to choose I would use the 150m it matches WAR so that there is some consistency in weapon capabilities....

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RE: Shreaks have too long a range. - 10/18/2009 8:42:51 PM   
Andrew Williams


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My gameplay feeling is 150m

Currently the only way to stop them firing inside buildings has the horrible side effect of making them always hit the top armour (like in VetBoB) of a vehicle (very thin), so being able to fire from a building is the better compromise

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RE: Shreaks have too long a range. - 10/18/2009 11:33:59 PM   
panzerlehr62


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A standard max firing range should be the goal for all weapons used thought the CC series. If 150 was used in WaR, a time period some 6 months later, why would we want to give it a longer range for TLD?

My vote would be 150 based on the fact the weapon plays a lot larger roll in WaR then it does in TLD. So making the change in TLD would have the least side effects.

I also hope some attention is paid to a scoring system for GCs going foward that create's more of a level playing field for both sides. Seeing that it only takes 8 turns (40% mark) to already get a minor victory as the Allies in H2H makes one wonder why anyone would want to play the German side.

I hope we get all this figuired out by the time ABTF remake is released.

Gz..



< Message edited by panzerlehr62 -- 10/18/2009 11:53:51 PM >

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RE: Shreaks have too long a range. - 10/18/2009 11:56:19 PM   
Andrew Williams


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quote:

Seeing that it only takes 8 turns (40% mark) to already get a minor victory as the Allies


Are you factoring in any 12ss and Lehr div counter attacks on 2nd 3rd and 4th days?

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RE: Shreaks have too long a range. - 10/19/2009 12:32:22 AM   
panzerlehr62


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams

quote:

Seeing that it only takes 8 turns (40% mark) to already get a minor victory as the Allies


Are you factoring in any 12ss and Lehr div counter attacks on 2nd 3rd and 4th days?


Time will tell on that one Andrew, but if I were in Vegas I wouldn't be betting Germans.

Considering were they will enter, what they have to get thru, plus maintain supply lines, I don't hold a lot hope for them to effect the current game scoring system.

If they all were on the map by day 2, I might agree with you. When I look at how much uncontested area Ive yet to even take, I just dont see it. Don't forget day 4 is only 4 turns for new Bgs.

Gz...


Edit: Ok, replace "I might agree with you" to "I might be concerned"...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
panzerlehr was later flogged for using the phrase "I might agree with you" in reply to Andrew's post.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

< Message edited by panzerlehr62 -- 10/19/2009 3:17:45 AM >

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RE: Shreaks have too long a range. - 10/19/2009 2:08:32 AM   
Andrew Williams


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quote:

If they all were on the map by day 2, I might agree with you


There is nothing to agree with, I asked a question I didn't make a statement   :)

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RE: Shreaks have too long a range. - 10/19/2009 2:59:28 AM   
STIENER

 

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i vote for 180M but 150M is ok too. thanks guys!

(in reply to Andrew Williams)
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