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I have to suspend all disbelief ...

 
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I have to suspend all disbelief ... - 10/12/2009 2:17:07 PM   
bjmorgan


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From: Mosquito Bite, Texas
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...to accept what the AI can do. ****SPOILER****

In my current game, the Japanese AI loves New Zealand and Suva. It has sent a TF to easter NZ and it just sits there in a NZ port, doing nothing but fighting off a few NZ inadequate naval air attacks.

Meanwhile, there are several AI TFs roaming back and forth between Noumea and Suva, and they've been there for the better part of a month. At one side of their joy cruise, they hammer Noumea, at the other they hammer Suva with their air power (I think it's two CVEs in the TFs). Apparently, they have lots of spare sorties laying around [sic] and unlimited fuel. I'm taking a cautious apporach and have a couple of CAGs in Luganville waiting for them to leave, but they just seem to stay. Sadly, it IS good training for them.

My point is that I appreciate the more challenging game the AI gives, but it seems like it could do so without having to resort to operations that are completely unlikely and ahistorical.

Oh, well, I'll just have to wait for another underescorted invasion TF at Canton and take out my frustration there with my cruiser TFs.
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RE: I have to suspend all disbelief ... - 10/12/2009 2:40:18 PM   
Andy Mac

 

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To remove variants that include AI exploitation attacks

delete aei00x-007 to aei00x-12 files from scen sub folder.

That will guarantee a game where the AI sticks to a historical expansion plan (if not in timing)

There are 13 AI files 7 are all variants of a bog standard game 6 have the AI going beyond strategically.

Andy

p.s. can you send me a save and I will fix the NZ Port TF isuse

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Post #: 2
RE: I have to suspend all disbelief ... - 10/12/2009 3:07:43 PM   
Admiral Scott


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Is there a random factor in the AI's strategy?

Will it pretty much do the same thing game after game, or will every game be different?

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RE: I have to suspend all disbelief ... - 10/12/2009 4:46:06 PM   
bjmorgan


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Do you want a save where the TF is on station at the NZ port?

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Post #: 4
RE: I have to suspend all disbelief ... - 10/12/2009 4:49:43 PM   
bjmorgan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Admiral Scott

Is there a random factor in the AI's strategy?

Will it pretty much do the same thing game after game, or will every game be different?

Well, in my two starts the games are VERY different on the edges. The AI still goes for DEI, PI, Burma, etc., but the probing and nuisance attacks are much, much different. Well, at least that is how it seems to me. Only the AI (i.e., Andy Mac) knows for sure....

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RE: I have to suspend all disbelief ... - 10/12/2009 5:25:20 PM   
Andy Mac

 

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The AI picks a random script from the 13 options which give it a different strategic objective in each one.

Save would be great.

a.mcphie@btinternet.com

Is this a patch 1 or launch game?

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Post #: 6
RE: I have to suspend all disbelief ... - 10/12/2009 7:28:49 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 8790
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bjmorgan

...to accept what the AI can do. ****SPOILER****

In my current game, the Japanese AI loves New Zealand and Suva. It has sent a TF to easter NZ and it just sits there in a NZ port, doing nothing but fighting off a few NZ inadequate naval air attacks.

Meanwhile, there are several AI TFs roaming back and forth between Noumea and Suva, and they've been there for the better part of a month. At one side of their joy cruise, they hammer Noumea, at the other they hammer Suva with their air power (I think it's two CVEs in the TFs). Apparently, they have lots of spare sorties laying around [sic] and unlimited fuel. I'm taking a cautious apporach and have a couple of CAGs in Luganville waiting for them to leave, but they just seem to stay. Sadly, it IS good training for them.

My point is that I appreciate the more challenging game the AI gives, but it seems like it could do so without having to resort to operations that are completely unlikely and ahistorical.

Oh, well, I'll just have to wait for another underescorted invasion TF at Canton and take out my frustration there with my cruiser TFs.



I haven't seen the NZ thing, but I have seen the CV battlegroups ping-ponging between Noumea and Suva in April 1942. It sucks to have nothing there to hit with.

So . . . I finally stopped "saving" my CVs at Pearl ("One more, and I'll be ready. OK, TWO more, and I'll be ready . . .) I made a TF of Enterprise and Sara, put in New Mexico, two CAs, and a handful of DDs, and headed southwest. You have to fight sometime.

When I got to about 300 miles east of Suva, there was a 3-CV tf of Akagi, Z. and Shok. near Noumea, and a CVL and assorted skimmers near Suva. I went north to block escape and get away from the CVL, used spotters from Noumea, timed the night sprint, and struck the heavies at dawn. Got one torpedo into Akaki (says she sank, but I disbelieve it), lost 40% of both my air groups, Enterprise took 24 floatation damage, Sara took 34, but the heavy CV tf ran for it. Both of my CVs went to Escort tf status and began limping for Sydney.

But . . . that left New Mexico and the CAs and most of the DDs with nothing to play with. I still had the CVL tf nailed, heading due west south of Noumea. I knew its air group was attrited from flak over Suva and Noumea, so I rolled the dice, went to flank, and started an end chase. Caught them the next day in the AM phase. My big guns against Shoho and three modern DDs . . .

It is very satisfying to see an air-launched torpedo strike home in a Japanese birdfarm, but, oh, how much sweeter to see a 16-in shell plow into the magazines and have that "Massive damage from ammunition explosion" message flash up. She went down like a stone, followed by two highly irreplacable, modern DDs. The third ran with engine damage, and I knifed it in the back later that day. Scratch one Japanese tf.

As my XO used to say, "Sailors belong on ships, and ships belong at sea." My lesson--stop "saving" the fleet. Fight. Like that old Doritos slogan: "Lose all you want. We'll make more." (Or something like that.)

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 10/12/2009 8:04:32 PM >


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RE: I have to suspend all disbelief ... - 10/12/2009 8:27:36 PM   
herwin

 

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Your goal as a theatre commander in WWII was not to passively defend what you had; it was to take the initiative and make the opponent defend what he had.

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Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

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RE: I have to suspend all disbelief ... - 10/12/2009 10:36:28 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin
Your goal as a theatre commander in WWII was not to passively defend what you had; it was to take the initiative and make the opponent defend what he had.



I'd say it depended on the time and the theatre. MacArthur and Percival must have understood very quickly that their primary role was to tie the attacking Japanese forces down as long as possible to give their respective nations time to mass and re-deploy forces to "hold the line" farther back. Likewise Kurabiashi actively sought to keep his garrison on Iwo Jima from throwing their lives away trying to "take the initiative"..., desiring to make the Allies have to assault each defender in a prepared position.

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RE: I have to suspend all disbelief ... - 10/13/2009 2:15:27 AM   
dereck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

To remove variants that include AI exploitation attacks

delete aei00x-007 to aei00x-12 files from scen sub folder.

That will guarantee a game where the AI sticks to a historical expansion plan (if not in timing)

There are 13 AI files 7 are all variants of a bog standard game 6 have the AI going beyond strategically.

Andy

p.s. can you send me a save and I will fix the NZ Port TF isuse



do you mean:

aei007-01.dat
aei007-02.dat
aei007-03.dat
aei007-04.dat
aei007-05.dat
aei007-06.dat
aei007-07.dat
aei007-08.dat
aei007-09.dat
aei007-10.dat
aei007-11.dat
aei007-12.dat

Are those the only ones?

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Post #: 10
RE: I have to suspend all disbelief ... - 10/13/2009 2:20:56 AM   
treespider


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dereck


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

To remove variants that include AI exploitation attacks

delete aei00x-007 to aei00x-12 files from scen sub folder.

That will guarantee a game where the AI sticks to a historical expansion plan (if not in timing)

There are 13 AI files 7 are all variants of a bog standard game 6 have the AI going beyond strategically.

Andy

p.s. can you send me a save and I will fix the NZ Port TF isuse



do you mean:

aei007-01.dat
aei007-02.dat
aei007-03.dat
aei007-04.dat
aei007-05.dat
aei007-06.dat
aei007-07.dat
aei007-08.dat
aei007-09.dat
aei007-10.dat
aei007-11.dat
aei007-12.dat

Are those the only ones?



No he means

aei00#-07.dat
aei00#-08.dat
aei00#-09.dat

through

aei00#-12.dat

Where # is the scenario number in question...

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Post #: 11
RE: I have to suspend all disbelief ... - 10/13/2009 12:16:47 PM   
m10bob


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IMHO even with a "historical-based" game, there has to be some form of AE unpredictability, or there is no variety to how we "get" to where we are going.

I will leave those variables intact, thank you.

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RE: I have to suspend all disbelief ... - 10/13/2009 12:33:15 PM   
John Lansford

 

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It's April '42 in my CG (with the patch) as well and the CVL TF's showed up to party around Noumea too.  Except, I've already begun building up Ndeni and Espirito Santo into bases on their own, and Suva and Noumea are bristling with air units, LCU's and strong surface action groups made up of USN CA's and Allied CL's.  They started hunting for the CVL's, found one and sent her to the bottom, although not without loss; HMAS Australia took two Long Lance torpedoes and sank 2 days later.  The other CVL TF ran into a DD TF and lost her two escorts, and decided survival was better than valor and ran for home.

I've not seen the "park the TF in Auckland and wait for something to happen" scenario yet, but I have seen a CA TF try and dock at Port Moresby a few game weeks ago.  It came around the Gili-Gili horn and arrived at PM for a short stay, didn't bombard or anything, just sat there.  My bombers wouldn't attack it (commander: "Can't you see those ships?  Yes, THOSE ships; the ones in the harbor out there! Go get them!") so they eventually ran off when my PT boats made an entrance and torpedoed Jintsu.  My CD units never fired, my bombers never bombed; it's almost like they were on a peacetime visitation cruise...

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RE: I have to suspend all disbelief ... - 10/13/2009 6:40:40 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

It's April '42 in my CG (with the patch) as well and the CVL TF's showed up to party around Noumea too.  Except, I've already begun building up Ndeni and Espirito Santo into bases on their own, and Suva and Noumea are bristling with air units, LCU's and strong surface action groups made up of USN CA's and Allied CL's.  They started hunting for the CVL's, found one and sent her to the bottom, although not without loss; HMAS Australia took two Long Lance torpedoes and sank 2 days later.  The other CVL TF ran into a DD TF and lost her two escorts, and decided survival was better than valor and ran for home.



Hmm, more and more variation. I like it.

My GC definitely had a CVL TF (which I sank wholesale) and a CV tf, not a second CVL. I got a report I had sunk Akagi with one torpedo (suuuure), and that tf ran off to the NW. I put Sara into Suva, Enterprise into Sydney, and the escorts in with her.

THEN, after I posted on my victory, the CV tf came back and started bombing the Suva port. Don't know if it was looking to sink Sara at the pier or just to be obnox. I had one DD at Suva which had escorted Sara in, so I decided to risk her to avoid the %#*!$ FOW and get eyeballs on this "CV tf". Yep, Shokuku and three DDs. My DD put four 5-inch shells into her with no penetration, and got away.

Now, unless it gets bored and leaves, I have to decide if I want to sortie Sara with 34 floatation damage, or risk her by staying put. My Sydney escorts, already in drydock, are at least six days away if I decide to sortie them with damage.

Decisions, decisions. Why anybody would want to go back to WITP's AI "sure moves" is beyond me.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 10/13/2009 6:41:06 PM >


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RE: I have to suspend all disbelief ... - 10/17/2009 1:23:41 AM   
joey


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I have a home made scenario in slot 26. I do not see aei0026-07.dat???? How does the AI act in a modified scenario? What files does it use?
I ask because the AI is attacking Kormac, Gerladstown, Darwin, and Canton Island on a weekly basis. I sit a SAG at each and have sunk most of his DD fleet. I would like to stop the AI from doing this, so that the game is better. The AI is now attacking with PBs and E boats due to the lost of DDs. I would like the AI to save its fleet.

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RE: I have to suspend all disbelief ... - 10/17/2009 2:46:34 AM   
Andy Mac

 

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The AI selects a script at the start of the game you cannot modify it in mid game.

Assuming you are playing Scen 1.##

How did you set up the modified Scen did you set it up with AI files i.e. did you open scen 1 and save it as scen 26 ?

Or did you copy and rename individual files (if you did it this way di you copy over the AI files ?

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RE: I have to suspend all disbelief ... - 10/17/2009 3:21:25 AM   
joey


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Opened scen 1 and renamed as 26 with two or three minor changes. Problem with the scrips is you can lay traps for the AI as it keeps repeating attacks until it is successful. So its losses are much higher than they should be, as I can lay in wait for them. Was hoping to stop this needless slaghter.

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RE: I have to suspend all disbelief ... - 10/17/2009 2:07:39 PM   
John Lansford

 

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I had a surface TF with a CL and Nagato escorted by 3 DD's raid the area around Pearl Harbor (???!!!).  They sank several of my transport TF's and their escorts with the loss of a DD, but never made it to PH so I didn't get to see if my formidable CD units would take them on.  I sortied a 3 CV TF to chase them down and Nagato was hit by 12 1000 lb bombs, but no torpedoes before she got away.

Meanwhile, I spotted Akagi headed down towards Suva, along with a CVL in a separate TF.  My cruiser TF's intercepted the CVL and shot her up pretty badly, but could only get some DD's to intercept Akagi and their 5" guns didn't damage her that much.  I had Saratoga and Wasp at Pago Pago and they raced west to try and catch her too, but she retreated towards Rabaul without an intercept.

Those kind of raids really cause me to become paranoid about my transport TF's in both areas.  I had 5 different bomber and patrol squadrons running naval search around Pearl, and Nagato still got within just a few hexes before I spotted her.  Down near Suva my LBA was totally ineffective in their attacks, even though I've got 2 DB squadrons at Luganville that were in range for some time (with escorts).  I can't escort everything to stop a BB and I can't provide air cover for everything in the SoPac!

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RE: I have to suspend all disbelief ... - 12/25/2009 6:11:27 PM   
sstevens06


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

To remove variants that include AI exploitation attacks

delete aei00x-007 to aei00x-12 files from scen sub folder.

That will guarantee a game where the AI sticks to a historical expansion plan (if not in timing)

There are 13 AI files 7 are all variants of a bog standard game 6 have the AI going beyond strategically.

Andy

p.s. can you send me a save and I will fix the NZ Port TF isuse



Does this still work the same way post-patch & hotfix? If yes, I assume you need to start a new game for this modification to be effective, correct?

Happy Holidays!

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 19
RE: I have to suspend all disbelief ... - 12/25/2009 6:21:30 PM   
bradfordkay

 

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I have no problems with the AI scripts taking it to some places that were never invaded IRL.

I will say that I am less than enamored with the AI teleporting TFs. I am coming to grips with the unlimited sorties (as I recall my CHS game where the AI kept sailing the KB through the DEI but only launching attacks with 5-6 a/c - presumably because it was low on sorties and couldn't rearm), but when the computer player gets to violate the laws of physics I tend to get bent out of shape. Luckily SantaChez came through and my PBEM first turn just arrived this morning!


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fair winds,
Brad

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RE: I have to suspend all disbelief ... - 12/25/2009 9:56:21 PM   
Dixie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

I have no problems with the AI scripts taking it to some places that were never invaded IRL.

I will say that I am less than enamored with the AI teleporting TFs. I am coming to grips with the unlimited sorties (as I recall my CHS game where the AI kept sailing the KB through the DEI but only launching attacks with 5-6 a/c - presumably because it was low on sorties and couldn't rearm), but when the computer player gets to violate the laws of physics I tend to get bent out of shape. Luckily SantaChez came through and my PBEM first turn just arrived this morning!



Me neither. But maybe the IJN perfected the Philadelphia (Osaka) Experiment?

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RE: I have to suspend all disbelief ... - 12/25/2009 11:53:17 PM   
pacwar

 

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I'm in late March, '42 in my CG, launch version, and while the Japs have taken Canton all their carrier groups are either focused on consolidating their hold over DEI or supporting invasions around Buna...no carriers have shown up south of New Britain yet. The only ballsy thing the AI has done is send a cruiser and two destroyers to raid Noumea, twice. The first time I lost a bunch of transports but then stationed a permanent patrol of destroyers in the harbor, which blunted the most recent raid, cosing me a couple of ML's and PG's.

If the AI does get adventurous around Suva I've still got all five US carriers and three British carriers, although one is laid up at Sydney with 40 floation damage from a sub attack. The Japs have also sent a task force with a BB to hammer Akyab. About three weeks ago they landed a division at Akyab, which promptly marched north to Cox's Bazar, where they sit and endure day after day of air attacks from Calcutta, completely unsupported by the rest of army which is engaged at Rangoon, where I have 67,000 men and level 3 fortifications holding back a much smaller forces of Japs. I've reinforced all four bases on Timor, and in the last couple of turns there have been some carrier air attacks and one aborted invasion and no attacks on Darwin. They have Buna but show no signs of coming around Milne Bay, yet.

As I'm playing the game I'm reading H.P. Willmot's Empires in the Balance, which I recommend as a very good narrative of the military and political history of the Japanese offensive between December 7th and April, 1942. Willmot makes a point on several occasions as to the shortcomings of Japanese strategy, in particular their rigidity of thinking and lack of strategic creativity and ability to adapt once things go off script. In many ways the AI adequately simulates that inability to be creative and stick to the game plan whether events have made the plan obsolete.

David.



< Message edited by pacwar -- 12/25/2009 11:54:32 PM >

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RE: I have to suspend all disbelief ... - 12/25/2009 11:58:10 PM   
Mac Linehan

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

Your goal as a theatre commander in WWII was not to passively defend what you had; it was to take the initiative and make the opponent defend what he had.



Must Concur -

regardless of AI behaivor; you know where they are (and will be for a while, evidently), so round up what you've got and go get them.

Then post and let me know what happens...<grin>

Mac

PS - well done, Andy Mac!

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RE: I have to suspend all disbelief ... - 12/26/2009 10:56:40 AM   
Dixie


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The AI is doing well in my game.  It's turned up somewhere I was expecting, I won't say where exactly, but about a month earlier than I thought.  I was lucky that Enterprise was in the area on her way to Oz and the NZ cruisers were a day or so away at full speed.  I managed to fight off that invasion, but next time I might not be so lucky especially as all my LCUs are still on their way.  It was a proper invasion as well, a decent sized transport force with cruiser support.  The KB had been around a few days earlier, although it's gone for now.  Good to see major targets get proper invasion forces  

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Post #: 24
RE: I have to suspend all disbelief ... - 12/26/2009 11:38:44 AM   
Andy Mac

 

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AI does not teleport TF's said it before saying it again.

If you see a TF teleport its is a bug but every single save I have seen purporting to be teleporting TF's has not been teleporting TFs

I give up on this one obviously the urban myth is stronger than any post I make on the subject

Andy 

(in reply to Dixie)
Post #: 25
RE: I have to suspend all disbelief ... - 12/26/2009 12:34:25 PM   
Dixie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

AI does not teleport TF's said it before saying it again.

If you see a TF teleport its is a bug but every single save I have seen purporting to be teleporting TF's has not been teleporting TFs

I give up on this one obviously the urban myth is stronger than any post I make on the subject

Andy 


Someone call the Discovery Channel! This is a job for Adam and Jamie

I'll believe you though Andy.

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Post #: 26
RE: I have to suspend all disbelief ... - 12/26/2009 1:19:54 PM   
John Lansford

 

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In my CG it's now late 10/42 and my search planes picked up a strong CA TF headed east towards Johnston Island.  All my CV's are down in SoPac land so I've got a fast BB TF of Washington plus some CL's and DD's headed SW to try and intercept them.  My Marines retook Bora Bora a few game weeks ago and since then the AI has stopped expanding.  It holds Milne Bay and the Shortlands, over to Tarawa and out to Baker Island, and the DEI over to Cox's Bazaar. I've already retaken Guadalcanal and Russell Island, and my next steps are Baker, Tarawa and Milne Bay.

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Post #: 27
RE: I have to suspend all disbelief ... - 12/26/2009 1:30:15 PM   
HansBolter


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While I enjoy the AI being agressive in going after ahistorical objectives, I dread the manner in which it undertakes these operations sometimes.

Play against the AI is a fine balance of having fun and endeavoring to keep the game from going down the drain too soon due to overwhelming losses to the AI. When the AI serves it's navy up on a silver platter for the slaughter I sometimes have to consider if I really want to end the game this soon by sinking them.

Case in point. I am in early January '42 in the Hakko Ichiu scenario. The AI started an OP to invade Midway. The group of TFs were spotted by Catalinas and submarines about 10 hexes out from Midway (just beyond Vindicator range). I had the Sara in the South Seas refeuling from AOs near Noumea and the Enterprise and Lex about halfway from Pearl to Canton reacting to an invasion there.

I turned Halsey's TF around and headed for Midway knowing it would take 3 days to get into range. I had not spotted any carrier TFs but knew one was probably in the vicinity. Here is where the AI fell on its face. Once spotted the entire force developed a case of "deer in the headlights syndrome" and FROZE in place for three days as if awaiting the arrival of my carriers. Upon arrival I discovered that the Midway invasion force was covered by a SINGLE fleet carrier. I promptly sunk the Hiryu and proceeded to rain slaughter on all the rest of the shipping.

I can appreciate the AI using single carrier TFs in remote locales unlikely to be populated with American carriers, but going to Midway with a single carrier....come on!

< Message edited by HansBolter -- 12/26/2009 1:36:00 PM >

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Post #: 28
RE: I have to suspend all disbelief ... - 12/26/2009 1:33:55 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 3789
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: St. Petersburg, Florida, USA
Status: offline
The AI could also use a little help understanding that just because it now occupies Manila that is NOT a free pass to relocate shipping there without first clearing the minefield and silencing the 14" guns at Bataan.

Here is a screenshot of the AIs SECOND attempt to bull it's way through. Two days earlier a TF with 2 CAs a CL and 2 DDs sunk themselves in such a foolish endeavor. I certainly hope the AI isn't going to repeat this every two days.






Attachment (1)

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 29
RE: I have to suspend all disbelief ... - 12/26/2009 3:06:10 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 13803
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline
AI is under code orders to avoid those two hexes with big guns only thing that overwrites it is a script so if a script is sending uunits there its fixable but I needa Save before and after so if you see something odd like that send me a save

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 30
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